Is Tywin really the father of Tyrion?

[David Selig]

-Ruthless: This is clearly false. Tywin is def. ruthless but Tyrion is not. If he was, he would have killed Joffrey to make his life easier, and bedded Sansa. He did not because he has a gentle heart.

What I can't even...

Tyrion has a gentle heart? Tell this to Symon, Shae, the Antler Men, the smallfolk in the Vale murdered and raped by the clansmen he armed, the slave prostitute he raped....

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Tywin also flat-out says the opposite regarding Tyrion back in GOT, " you are my son.". So was he lying the first time or the second?

And like bb, mladen, and a couple others on here, I'm really puzzled as to why this theory gets traction.

- As I already said, Tywin earlier does say that Tyrion is his.

- From all evdience in the books, Joanna spent more time at the Rock than KL.

- There is no evidence that Varys and Iilyrio are Targ supporters. Actually, it's the opposite. They left Dany and Viserys to wander the free cities for quite some time. They are nothing but a smoke screen, (f)Aegon was their goal all along.

Tyrion's story has been all about his relationship with his father. He fights against Tywin defining him while also building himself a Lannister cage. If Tywin is not his father, it weakens Tyrion's entire storyline so far and absolves Tywin for much of his treatment towards Tyrion. Martin is a much better writer than this. So, this theory seems to depend upon a very specific and literal interpretation of Tywin's final words, which negate many of his previous comments and a few lines on Aery's interest in Joanna. Pretty weak evidence overall.

Well obviously he didin't tell him, Tywin kept u pthe charade that he was the father through Tyrion's whole life. He was protecting his own reputation and his dead wife's. he had no reason to ever tell tyrion the truth, except for when he was about to die because it didn't matter anymore, he was dying.

[rivergirl]

No, Tywin is being very consistent here. He views his children as tools for the Lannister family name. Jaime's "duty" is to take up the role of Lord of CR but Jaime refuses him. He's no longer recognizing him just as he is doing the same to Tyrion later. It's a barb that is meant to hurt by denying them the title as his son. Earlier in the books, Tywin flat out says that Tyrion is his son, again a recognition from Tywin.

That combined with the Jaime quote makes me think you're probably right, i think it's most likely that Tyrion is Tywin's son. Considering Tyrion's "all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes" quote to Jon, it also draws an interesting parallel between Tywin and Catelyn.

The fact that he was a trueborn son whereas Jon really was (of course by no fault of his own) a symbol of Ned betraying Catelyn gives a little leeway to Cat in her treatment of Jon, and also shows just how cruel Tywin is. I know she's not an angel, but i can't see Cat and Tywin behaving similarly at all in regards to children in the same situation. So i guess i'm saying that since this would put Tyrion and Jon in the same situations in relation to Tywin and Catelyn, the theory also requires you to ignore a large part of Catelyn's character.

And RE: Heads of the dragon, too... i'd forgotten that GRRM said they need not be Targaryens. So i guess there's no reason for Tyrion to be one even if he is a Head.

[The Red Hand]

A+J=T has been around for a while and despite what the nay-sayers say theres is is eveidence to support it, a lot in fact.

Tywin also flat-out says the opposite regarding Tyrion back in GOT, " you are my son.". So was he lying the first time or the second?

Both; when he says that Jaime is "not his son" it's right after he flat-out refuses to inherit CR. He never questioned Jaime being his preferred heir before or after that. When he says to Tyrion " you are my son", it's right after Jaime has been captured at the WW and he wants Tyrion to rule in KL.

And like bb, mladen, and a couple others on here, I'm really puzzled as to why this theory gets traction.

- As I already said, Tywin earlier does say that Tyrion is his.

- From all evdience in the books, Joanna spent more time at the Rock than KL.

- There is no evidence that Varys and Iilyrio are Targ supporters. Actually, it's the opposite. They left Dany and Viserys to wander the free cities for quite some time. They are nothing but a smoke screen, (f)Aegon was their goal all along.

-Joanna did spend time in CR, but we don't where she or Tywin were 9 months before Tyrion was born. Maybe she went to Kl to visit and saw Aerys? Who knows? Certainly not you or I.

-Illyrio still fed them for what, a year at his manse and arranged for Dany to marry Drogo. Also, he gave her the dragon eggs as a wedding gift. I think they wre using Viserys and Dany for their own ends but to say that they didn't support them is a bit much.

Tyrion's story has been all about his relationship with his father. He fights against Tywin defining him while also building himself a Lannister cage. If Tywin is not his father, it weakens Tyrion's entire storyline so far and absolves Tywin for much of his treatment towards Tyrion. Martin is a much better writer than this. So, this theory seems to depend upon a very specific and literal interpretation of Tywin's final words, which negate many of his previous comments and a few lines on Aery's interest in Joanna. Pretty weak evidence overall.

Painting Tywin in a somewhat-sympathetic light is a downright GRRM thing to do IMO. Also, Tywin will still look like a dick for treating Tyrion like crap compared to Ned and Jon.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

No, "you are not my son" is pretty much Tywin's standard issue condemnation when he's angry at his children. Besides, as K3 pointed out above, Tywin also clearly tells Tyrion that he is his son earlier in the series. There's also the fact that Tywin once states that he tried to prove that Tyrion wasn't his son, and came up short on evidence. If there was any evidence that Tyrion wasn't his son, Tywin would have found it, bronzed it and sold Tyrion to a pack of monkeys while doing a celebratory jig.

Additionally, I'm unclear as to how Aerys' semen would have had access to Joanna, as it seems that she and the twins spent this time at the Rock, and especially so during the time Tyrion would have been conceived based on the account given by Oberyn. If anyone was fathered by Aerys, there's more evidence it would have been Cersei and Jaime, and even then this seems extremely implausible.

Also, I've yet to see a really compelling reason for Tyrion's being a Targaryen from the standpoint of his character arc and personal development. How does this revelation strengthen Tyrion's highly developed struggle with his father, and further, becoming his father? Beside simply kicking Tywin in the ribs by being not Tywin's son doesn't have the same impact on Tyrion's character as killing the man who fathered him does.

but i agree with you, he said it as like the epitome of insults to his children, "you are no son of mine' would be the greatest insult any lannister could ever get, in Tywin's eyes his family was the greatest in the world. And I totally see what you are saying. But if you will listen to what I am saying it is that when Tywin was dying he actually meant what he said. When he tells jaime to F%^k off and get out he is pissed becasue Jaime isn't doing exactly what Tywin wants and Tywin (being a little girl) insults him in the strongest way he can. I guess he thinks jaime will go cry about it after. But why insult Tyrion in the same way when he is dying? he wouldnt even be around to see the disappointed look on Tyrions face, because he died seconds later.

Actually I think the fact that Tywin had said that phrase before makes it even more truthful in the death scene. Wouldn't GRRM twist it that way, so that the one time you think it is just Tywin being his normal insulting self he is actually trying to give out real information.

[Gentso]

It could be quite the reach but if you take these quotes (taken from wiki) literally they suggest Tyrion is a bastard.

“Men are such faithless creatures.” – Varys

“Who’s the traitor today?” – Tyrion Lannister

“So much villainy, it sings a sad song for our age. Did honor die with our fathers?” – Varys

“My father is not dead yet.” – Tyrion

Tyrion: Let me give you some advice bastard. Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.

Jon: What the hell do you know about being a bastard?

Tyrion: All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

A+J=T has been around for a while and despite what the nay-sayers say theres is is eveidence to support it, a lot in fact.

Both; when he says that Jaime is "not his son" it's right after he flat-out refuses to inherit CR. He never questioned Jaime being his preferred heir before or after that. When he says to Tyrion " you are my son", it's right after Jaime has been captured at the WW and he wants Tyrion to rule in KL.

-Joanna did spend time in CR, but we don't where she or Tywin were 9 months before Tyrion was born. Maybe she went to Kl to visit and saw Aerys? Who knows? Certainly not you or I.

-Illyrio still fed them for what, a year at his manse and arranged for Dany to marry Drogo. Also, he gave her the dragon eggs as a wedding gift. I think they wre using Viserys and Dany for their own ends but to say that they didn't support them is a bit much.

Painting Tywin in a somewhat-sympathetic light is a downright GRRM thing to do IMO. Also, Tywin will still look like a dick for treating Tyrion like crap compared to Ned and Jon.

:bowdown:

Damn skippy, all Oberyn talks about is getting to CR after Tyrion is born, he makes no mention of where Joanna was 9 months prior.

[butterbumps!]

A+J=T has been around for a while and despite what the nay-sayers say theres is is eveidence to support it, a lot in fact.

The "evidence" for this seems to be taking a quote by Tywin literally, using the imprecise knowledge of Joanna's wherabouts to say that it's possible, while ignoring all of Tyrion's character development as well as the fact that Tywin would have gotten rid of Tyrion if he had the slightest suspicion that Tyrion was not his. The "evidence" for this is on par with the "evidence" that Benjen fathered Jon by Lyanna followed by Ned killing her (because it "could" have happened).

[Kittykatknits]

Well obviously he didin't tell him, Tywin kept u pthe charade that he was the father through Tyrion's whole life. He was protecting his own reputation and his dead wife's. he had no reason to ever tell tyrion the truth, except for when he was about to die because it didn't matter anymore, he was dying.

Again, you are prescribing motivations and meaning to Tywin that are not supported by his character.

[Tony Rigatoni]

Sorry, but this is too streched for a good theory. As I pointed out, Tywin`s last line was more like renouncing Tyrion as his son then a declaration of Tyrion litteraly not being his son. That last line was Tywin all along, and it had nothing with Tyrion`s true father. Yes you are right about Kevan`s statements. But it all reffer to Joanna, not Tyrion. Tywin loved Joanna as he had never loved anyone before or after. And his grief for losing Joanna due to giving birth to an abomination, as he saw Tyrion, was overwhelming. Look at how he behaved to Princess of Dorne. Man like Tywin would never do that. As for those liberties, Joanna was beautiful, and I imagine those liberties meant he touched her inappropriately during taking her clothes off for a bedding.

The thing about plausible theory is that you need something more. Something more than just Aerys loved and lusted for Joanna, because namy men in ASOIAF loved and lusted for various women and that doesn`t make them fathers of their kids. It would be like saying Robb was a son of Cat and LF. And for the Cat/LF theory you even have more proof than this one. Both of them, and I am sorry for using the word, are ludacris, crackpot at least.

I wouldn't say crackpot because there is some textual evidence (as I have shown) but yes, I agree it is a stretch. Especially Tywin's last words - they most likely have no hidden meaning to them. If my son shot me I might say the same thing. As I said before, I'm actually still on the fence about this theory. If it's true it wouldn't ruin the series for me, but it would make it a little too much like a soap opera. Personally, I'm more inclined for the R+L=J theory, but that's a whole different matter for a different thread. I've read some of the crackpot threads and they either ignore the text, ignore common sense, or both. One argued the others were the heros of aSoIaF while the Starks were the villains. This thread is far from the likes of that. Even if it is hard to swallow, you have to admit there is some evidence supporting the A+J=T theory.

I think the reason these ?+?=? theories appear though is because many of us are trying to weasel out of the text who the 3 heads of the dragon are. If A+J=T, then Tyrion is more than likely one of the heads.

[butterbumps!]

but i agree with you, he said it as like the epitome of insults to his children, "you are no son of mine' would be the greatest insult any lannister could ever get, in Tywin's eyes his family was the greatest in the world. And I totally see what you are saying. But if you will listen to what I am saying it is that when Tywin was dying he actually meant what he said. When he tells jaime to F%^k off and get out he is pissed becasue Jaime isn't doing exactly what Tywin wants and Tywin (being a little girl) insults him in the strongest way he can. I guess he thinks jaime will go cry about it after. But why insult Tyrion in the same way when he is dying? he wouldnt even be around to see the disappointed look on Tyrions face, because he died seconds later.

Actually I think the fact that Tywin had said that phrase before makes it even more truthful in the death scene. Wouldn't GRRM twist it that way, so that the one time you think it is just Tywin being his normal insulting self he is actually trying to give out real information.

If Tywin had knowledge that Tyrion was not his, do you really think it's in Tywin's character to raise a dwarf as a son for all the world to see? He'd have thrown the boy out, as it's stated he would have in the text. Nothing irks Tywin like being a laughingstock, which is what the mere existence of Tyrions dwarfism does to Tywin. If this deathbed quote is taken at face value, meaning that Tywin has plum known all along, then there needs to be some serious ret-conning to rectify the very egregious logic gap that Tywin would have raised a non-familial dwarf as his own, which everything in Tywin's character tells us that he would not.

[rivergirl]

The "evidence" for this seems to be taking a quote by Tywin literally, using the imprecise knowledge of Joanna's wherabouts to say that it's possible, while ignoring all of Tyrion's character development as well as the fact that Tywin would have gotten rid of Tyrion if he had the slightest suspicion that Tyrion was not his. The "evidence" for this is on par with the "evidence" that Benjen fathered Jon by Lyanna followed by Ned killing her (because it "could" have happened).

Ooh, or maybe Brandon was Jon's father. And Benjen disappeared deliberately when Jon got there, because he couldn't stand seeing the face of a nice kid who didn't know he was an abomination born of incest AND made his mum die... then again, probably not.

I was going to say that at least there was a bit more evidence for A+J=T than B+L=J, but there really isn't. I'm dreading the thought of what new theories are going to come up if GRRM leaves us waiting for another few years. The night is dark and full of crackpot.

[Mladen]

Even if it is hard to swallow, you have to admit there is some evidence supporting the A+J=T theory.

I think the reason these ?+?=? theories appear though is because many of us are trying to weasel out of the text who the 3 heads of the dragon are. If A+J=T, then Tyrion is more than likely one of the heads.

What you, OP and so-called believers in this theory have, are not facts. It`s vague interpretation of known stuff. Further more, you go against the logic of Tywin`s, Tyrion`s personalities. As I said, this is far too loose for my taste. Tyrion is loveable character especially because he`s Tywin`s son. The point with three heads are that you read too much into prophecies. Guess what, some of them are wrong. Some of them are red herrings, and some of them mean nothing. You have to read what you have, not what you think you`ll need to have.

[rivergirl]

What you, OP and so-called believers in this theory have, are not facts. It`s vague interpretation of known stuff. Further more, you go against the logic of Tywin`s, Tyrion`s personalities. As I said, this is far too loose for my taste. Tyrion is loveable character especially because he`s Tywin`s son. The point with three heads are that you read too much into prophecies. Guess what, some of them are wrong. Some of them are red herrings, and some of them mean nothing. You have to read what you have, not what you think you`ll need to have.

Plus, the "three heads of the dragon" prophecy has nothing to do with anyone being a secret Targaryen, much less Tyrion. GRRM has directly stated that you don't have to be a Targaryen to be a head of the dragon. If it is a true prophecy (i for one think it is) and does happen to include Tyrion, that still doesn't mean he's not Tywin's son.

[David Selig]

If Tywin knew about it, it makes no sense he stayed as hand for several years and especially that he didn't join Robert's rebellion right from the start. He's nothing if not vindictive.

[Tony Rigatoni]

Tyrion has a gentle heart? Tell this to Symon, Shae, the Antler Men, the smallfolk in the Vale murdered and raped by the clansmen he armed, the slave prostitute he raped....

Symon was going to do some mischief - mischief which would endanger Tyrion and Shae. Killing him does not make Tyrion ruthless. Same goes for the Antler Men. I will concede about killing Shae and Tywin. However, those murders haunt Tyrion in aDwD, which shows he's not without regret.

But he never had babies murdered like his father as I recall. All of his actions are justifiable, save for killing Shae, killing his father, and having sex with his wife after Tywin's guards had her (he was what, 15? and he regrets that all his life as well). So let me rephrase - Tyrion does not have a gentle heart, but he does have a heart. Tywin on the other hand is just a cold, ruthless man, unlike Tyrion in every way other than intelligence.

Don't forget the red wedding. Who plotted that?

[A wilding]

"Gentler than Tywin is drier than the sea."

[The Red Hand]

No, Tywin is being very consistent here. He views his children as tools for the Lannister family name. Jaime's "duty" is to take up the role of Lord of CR but Jaime refuses him. He's no longer recognizing him just as he is doing the same to Tyrion later. It's a barb that is meant to hurt by denying them the title as his son. Earlier in the books, Tywin flat out says that Tyrion is his son, again a recognition from Tywin.

Your arguments depend on viewing Tywin's words in a very specific way while ignore much of his character.

I think the opposite is true, your argument depends on Tywin's two statements being acknowledgments or a lack-of. What are the facts? Tywin said that Tyrion" is his son" yet outright refuses later on to allow him to inherirt CR, Tywin also says Jaime " is not his son" yet gives him Oathkeeper and still seems to want him to change his mind.

What I can't even...

Tyrion has a gentle heart? Tell this to Symon, Shae, the Antler Men, the smallfolk in the Vale murdered and raped by the clansmen he armed, the slave prostitute he raped....

Tyrion is no saint but hes nowhere near as bad as Tywin. I can't see Tywin treating a whore kindly, refusing to take Sansa's maidenhood, protecting Penny, or all the other semi-decent things Tyrion has done so far.

[joluoto]

We know Aerys did something, but it could as well have been an attempted rape. Whether any of the Lannisters are an Targaryen? No, I don't think so.

[butterbumps!]

ok, wait a second. Now the fact that Tyrion is not a precise facsimile of Tywin is being used to support the case that he is not Tywin's son? So.....by this same logic, wouldn't the fact that Tyrion doesn't manifest the madness and long fingernails of Aerys speak against this parentage as well, and even more so given that Tyrion is absolutely nothing like the Mad King?

Tyrion is very much cut from the same cloth as his father. Killing Shae and Symn are not crimes he later feels remorse over (though once he knows the truth about Tysha, he does have regret over that). Tyrion is as capable of ruthlessness as Tywin; at the very least, he thinks very much like his father. He does not go as far as his father, this is true, but Genna was correct in stating that Tyrion is very much his father's son given the way they think and choose to execute schemes. Tyrion simply has a bit more decency than Tywin (and more decency that Aerys' "spice up my boner by cooking people" Targaryen while we're on that subject).