Is Tywin really the father of Tyrion?

[Groat]

It's suprememely important for his character arc for this climax to have happened; that he's a kinslayer is not the end of life for Tyrion, and h's becoming a more mature person now that he's accepting his enormities, including, but not limited to, having admired his father, having obeyed his father and patricide.

I'm sorry but the kinslaying is the end of the life for Tyrion. He is not growing more mature as a person, he is descending down a much darker path where his primary goal is to rape and murder his (half) sister Cersei. What's going to happen to Tyrion when Penny dies? He's going to go off the deep end. All he wants to do is cause more destruction and war to Westeros, he doesn't want to grow old and relax somewhere. This is why Varys and Ilyrio are using him, because they know his only desire is to hurt the remaining Lannisters.

[Sun]

The truth is, based on the facts we have at the moment, no one can either prove or disprove Tyrion's parentage. I believe he's Tywin's son, but I can't prove absolutely that he is. Others believe he is not Tywin's, but they can't prove it either. In the end we can each believe what we wish to believe until GRRM says otherwise.

ETA:

I should add however that the scales are not even in this argument. Even the proponents of this theory must admit that the scales tilt more towards Tywin being the father, even if only for the fact that Tyrion's entire character arc so far has hinged on that very fact.

[butterbumps!]

Gotta say, after reading through the posts there are very few facts the naysayers have used that directly contradict the theory. Most of them argue about how it would mess up the future storylines rather than actually present something that is debatable.

oh christ on a crutch. First, the entire 5 novels point to the fact that Tyrion in Tywin's son. We've pointed out that it's extremely unlikely that Joanna was even around Aeys' semen, the fact that it would be remarkably out of Tywin's character to keep around a dwarf that wasn't his own kin, and the fact that Tyrion's struggle with coping with having Tywin as a father is probably the most central part of his arc. For further clarification, we have Jaime, Cersei, Barristan, Aunt Gemma, Uncle Kevan and Moon Boy for all I care never questioning Tyrion's parentage. Should we have this debate about Arya because Sansa once asked Cat if Arya was a changeling?

You and others have taken one line out of context and forced an extremely weak case for this to be true-- "his black eye COULD be purple" "He likes dragons" "He's apparently not like Tywin" None of these pieces are actually arguments for Tyrion's being Aerys' son; they do not point to either direction, and certainly not when looked at in the context of the rest of the story thus far.

This isn't about FUTURE outcomes. It's about the fact that A. it would completely jump the shark since there aren't significant clues or character development suggesting this and B. it would invalidate what we've already read wrt Tyrion, Jaime and Tywin.

This is seriously about as "valid" as those Ned+Lyanna=Jon + Aegon theories.

[straits]

there is already one on this thread. We officially do not know Joanna's whereabouts during the month she would have conceived Tyrion. We know she dies giving birth at CR from Oberyn's story about baby Tyrion, but that's it.

So we don't have an agreeing timeline to support this.

ZERO TEXTUAL EVIDENCE? I dare you to read this and repeat that statement. I've pointed out examples from the text to support this theory and thats evidence enough. Does A+J=T have conclusive proof, or the amount of evidence that R+L=J have? No. But that doesn't make the theory invalid. I've never cherry-picked a day in my life and the only absence of evidence I have is not having absolute knowledge that Aerys and Joanna procreated. And not even R+L=J has that.

I read the thread. More extrapolation and guesswork. Zero textual evidence. RLJ is not the topic being discussed here, and you cannot use its probability of being valid to support your own theory. I like the part where the OP gives three possibilities through his own interpretation, and two lines of text to support it.

I hold my breath for a mind blowing response summing up all evidence.

[butterbumps!]

I'm sorry but the kinslaying is the end of the life for Tyrion. He is not growing more mature as a person, he is descending down a much darker path where his primary goal is to rape and murder his (half) sister Cersei. What's going to happen to Tyrion when Penny dies? He's going to go off the deep end. All he wants to do is cause more destruction and war to Westeros, he doesn't want to grow old and relax somewhere. This is why Varys and Ilyrio are using him, because they know his only desire is to hurt the remaining Lannisters.

The version of DwD I've read shows that Tyrion's made strides in accepting his faults and humanity. Some of it's darker, some of it's lighter, but he's being honest with himself and his morality now. Tyrion was never a very light person to begin with, he only rationalized his enormities better in the past.

And the fact that he's the one who killed Tywin is what made him valuable to Varys and Illyrio, and why Jon C "trusted" him; likely, Dany may find this a similar asset.

[straits]

Seriously, can we have some evidence in here?

ev·i·dence

The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

The vehemence with which the theory is asserted doesn't actually prove anything. Nor does shouting that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. It is up to the supporters to build the theory comprehensively. Haven't seen much of that.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Mr Frey, you lose, and not because it was just me who thinks this theory is crackpot. Kitty, butterbumps, Florina etc, all of them established members of this community, people who know Westeros have said your theory isn`t correct. And we all together put quite a pile of evidence here. Face it, you lost, and the time has come to admit that.

Haha @ the Red Hand, did you hear that, only those who 'really know Westeros' have the right idea here. Mladen is in fact GRRM in disguise and knows everything she says is absolutely correct for a fact.

[Lewton]

I would not care very much to see Tyrion as a dragon rider, but the way some people react as if even suggesting A+J=T is a personal insult sort of makes me want to see it happen. There certainly is enough in the text to at least consider the possibility, though I think if any of Tywin's brood are secret Targs the twins are still more likely candidates. But for anyone to dismiss the whole theory off-hand when Aerys' lust for Joanna is well known and the shenanigans at the bedding were just "casually" mentioned is kind of absurd.

Strangest part is how many seem to know what Tywin would and would not do, that it would be impossible for him to raise a bastard dwarf (assuming he knew). I think it's important to remember that this is the Tywin whose last night on earth was spent sampling Tyrion's sloppy seconds. It is difficult to say what he really would and would not do after that one.

[The Red Hand]

What's silly is pointing out "possibilities" that give an opening to a theory while ignoring everything that actually pertains to Tywin, Tyrion, even Jaime as Tyrion's brother (and how Jaime is torn up inside at his assumed responsibility in loosing Tyrion on Tywin and tainting him with kinslaying), and how all of these things speak against your theory.

This isn't about what I want to happen, it's about not ignoring the entire character arcs of at least 3 major characters that make little sense if this turns out to be true, as well as the fact that I don't acknowledge any of your speculative "possibilities" as being "plausible," either on their own or taken with the rest of the story as a whole. And yes, the "textual evidence" I've seen isn't evidence, but rather imprecise lines that don't point to anything in particular. This, in combination with the fact that Tyrion as Tywin's son has been built up as a struggle for 5 books now makes this "theory" thoroughly IMplausible.

Rather, it seems to me that proponents of this theory are the ones leading the cart here. It seems that there is a desire to see Tyrion as Aerys son as some sort of loophole for him to become a dragon rider or to see Tyrion's taint of kinslaying erased completely. On the first, he doesn't need to be a Targ in order to ride a dragon. On the second, Tyrion is in fact an extremey grey guy, and killing his father was one of the best and worst things he's ever done. It's suprememely important for his character arc for this climax to have happened; that he's a kinslayer is not the end of life for Tyrion, and h's becoming a more mature person now that he's accepting his enormities, including, but not limited to, having admired his father, having obeyed his father and patricide.

Again, Tyrion would still be a kinslayer.

Could you please explain to me why this theory so destroys these character arcs? And is it possible that you assume Tyrion's story to be about his struggle with his inner-Tywin when that may not neccesarily be the case? Hell, after AGOT I thought this series would be all about Robb's rise to power.

I'll be honest, I do think it would be cool for Tyrion to end up riding Viserion but my wish to see that happen doesn't in any way disprove this theory or the evidence in support of it. To support your opinion you ignore any logical basis for the theory being true and instead say why you don't want this theory to be true or why you think it doesn't need to be true and that sir, is silly.

Mr Frey, you lose, and not because it was just me who thinks this theory is crackpot. Kitty, butterbumps, Florina etc, all of them established members of this community, people who know Westeros have said your theory isn`t correct. And we all together put quite a pile of evidence here. Face it, you lost, and the time has come to admit that.

I never thought the vast majority of people would believe this theory, there are still people who don't believe R+L=J even though it has a lot more evidence. I don't care if you don't believe, but when you say that this theory is crackpot or that this theory doesn't make any sense, you are wrong. End of story.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

When I get off work, I will have more time to answer in length.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I would not care very much to see Tyrion as a dragon rider, but the way some people react as if even suggesting A+J=T is a personal insult sort of makes me want to see it happen. There certainly is enough in the text to at least consider the possibility, though I think if any of Tywin's brood are secret Targs the twins are still more likely candidates. But for anyone to dismiss the whole theory off-hand when Aerys' lust for Joanna is well known and the shenanigans at the bedding were just "casually" mentioned is kind of absurd.

Strangest part is how many seem to know what Tywin would and would not do, that it would be impossible for him to raise a bastard dwarf (assuming he knew). I think it's important to remember that this is the Tywin whose last night on earth was spent sampling Tyrion's sloppy seconds. It is difficult to say what he really would and would not do after that one.

Thank you!!! Jesus

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Again, Tyrion would still be a kinslayer.

Could you please explain to me why this theory so destroys these character arcs? And is it possible that you assume Tyrion's story to be about his struggle with his inner-Tywin when that may not neccesarily be the case? Hell, after AGOT I thought this series would be all about Robb's rise to power.

I'll be honest, I do think it would be cool for Tyrion to end up riding Viserion but my wish to see that happen doesn't in any way disprove this theory or the evidence in support of it. To support your opinion you ignore any logical basis for the theory being true and instead say why you don't want this theory to be true or why you think it doesn't need to be true and that sir, is silly.

I never thought the vast majority of people would believe this theory, there are still people who don't believe R+L=J even though it has a lot more evidence. I don't care if you don't believe, but when you say that this theory is crackpot or that this theory doesn't make any sense, you are wrong. End of story.

yeah! Take that!

[Groat]

The version of DwD I've read shows that Tyrion's made strides in accepting his faults and humanity. Some of it's darker, some of it's lighter, but he's being honest with himself and his morality now. Tyrion was never a very light person to begin with, he only rationalized his enormities better in the past.

And the fact that he's the one who killed Tywin is what made him valuable to Varys and Illyrio, and why Jon C "trusted" him; likely, Dany may find this a similar asset.

The DWD I read showed Tyrion wanting to rape Cersei, raping a slave girls for no other reason than she looked relieved when he declined to have sex with her, and seriously contemplating suicide. He is actually having huge denial issues with Jaime, I believe the exact quote is something along the lines of "I can't think of Jaime right now". Jon C never trusted him, he only begrudgingly took him on after Ilyrio convinced him to. Maybe I took the wrong things away from the story, but to me, Tyrion's only goal right now is to kill Cersei, I would hardly consider that moral progression, even though he's not attempting to rationalize it. Why else would he allow himself to be sold into slavery, trapse across desert, war torn lands of Slavers Bay, and make a deal with shady mercenaries promosing them just about all the gold in Casterly Rock if his end goal is not simply revenge? I do not believe he see's a life for himself after he get's his revenge. Is that how you want Tyrion's arc to end? He rapes Cersei, then murder's her remaining children in front of her, then kills her.

I'm not trying to say I'm a die hard believer in A+J=T, but I think this theory has merit. Mostly I think if Tyrion learns the truth, maybe from some clues Barristan says along with a dragon instantly liking him, it could really help him with some resolution with his family. He thinks about nothing else besides that final moment with Tywin "Where ever whores go. Thunk", and I think if he learned he was Aerys's son, it could change how he views that whole situation.

[straits]

I would not care very much to see Tyrion as a dragon rider, but the way some people react as if even suggesting A+J=T is a personal insult sort of makes me want to see it happen. There certainly is enough in the text to at least consider the possibility, though I think if any of Tywin's brood are secret Targs the twins are still more likely candidates. But for anyone to dismiss the whole theory off-hand when Aerys' lust for Joanna is well known and the shenanigans at the bedding were just "casually" mentioned is kind of absurd.

Strangest part is how many seem to know what Tywin would and would not do, that it would be impossible for him to raise a bastard dwarf (assuming he knew). I think it's important to remember that this is the Tywin whose last night on earth was spent sampling Tyrion's sloppy seconds. It is difficult to say what he really would and would not do after that one.

Aren't you just reasserting that there is still a possibility the theory is correct? Still waiting for evidence with bated breath.

[Mladen]

Haha @ the Red Hand, did you hear that, only those who 'really know Westeros' have the right idea here. Mladen is in fact GRRM in disguise and knows everything she says is absolutely correct for a fact.

My dear, you will find on this forums members whom you trust. And I trust in opinion of ladies I mentioned. I never said that you have no right on opinion, but I personally find it wrong. I do not proclaim I know everything but I believe I know this isn`t truth. And again, control yourself, we can have civilized discussion without insulting.

[butterbumps!]

Again, Tyrion would still be a kinslayer.

Could you please explain to me why this theory so destroys these character arcs? And is it possible that you assume Tyrion's story to be about his struggle with his inner-Tywin when that may not neccesarily be the case? Hell, after AGOT I thought this series would be all about Robb's rise to power.

Because Tyrion's arc has been largely about his struggle with his feelings about his FATHER, Tywin. Tyrion has been largely self-imprisoned by his ambivalent feelings toward Tywin as his father for the entire series (ambivalent meaning strong in both directions). To find out that Tywin was not his father after-all, and "proof" he's free from that prison would render the previous thousands of pages of this struggle rather pointless.

I'll be honest, I do think it would be cool for Tyrion to end up riding Viserion but my wish to see that happen doesn't in any way disprove this theory or the evidence in support of it. To support your opinion you ignore any logical basis for the theory being true and instead say why you don't want this theory to be true or why you think it doesn't need to be true and that sir, is silly.

I'm not a sir, and that's not at all what I'm doing. It's not that I don't want this theory to be true; it's that there is nothing compelling that you-- or anyone else-- has provided to make it true. Nor have you, or anyone, given compelling ideas as to how it fits into Tyrion's story and character development except to say that he'd have a fresh start, which is not a logical evolution from Tyrion's current story.

I never thought the vast majority of people would believe this theory, there are still people who don't believe R+L=J even though it has a lot more evidence. I don't care if you don't believe, but when you say that this theory is crackpot or that this theory doesn't make any sense, you are wrong. End of story.

I'm not wrong by stating that this theory makes no sense, because it doesn't in fact make any sense, nor is it even suggested by the text.

This is getting repetitive, so I'm done. You and others are just getting louder, not more disciplined about finding legitimate textual backing, or integrating this "theory" into a greater context.

The DWD I read showed Tyrion wanting to rape Cersei, raping a slave girls for no other reason than she looked relieved when he declined to have sex with her, and seriously contemplating suicide. He is actually having huge denial issues with Jaime, I believe the exact quote is something along the lines of "I can't think of Jaime right now". Jon C never trusted him, he only begrudgingly took him on after Ilyrio convinced him to. Maybe I took the wrong things away from the story, but to me, Tyrion's only goal right now is to kill Cersei, I would hardly consider that moral progression, even though he's not attempting to rationalize it. Why else would he allow himself to be sold into slavery, trapse across desert, war torn lands of Slavers Bay, and make a deal with shady mercenaries promosing them just about all the gold in Casterly Rock if his end goal is not simply revenge? I do not believe he see's a life for himself after he get's his revenge. Is that how you want Tyrion's arc to end? He rapes Cersei, then murder's her remaining children in front of her, then kills her.

I'm not trying to say I'm a die hard believer in A+J=T, but I think this theory has merit. Mostly I think if Tyrion learns the truth, maybe from some clues Barristan says along with a dragon instantly liking him, it could really help him with some resolution with his family. He thinks about nothing else besides that final moment with Tywin "Where ever whores go. Thunk", and I think if he learned he was Aerys's son, it could change how he views that whole situation.

Tyrion's always been that grey, and he threatened to rape Cersei even back in Clash; it's just that he becomes much more honest with himself in DwD, which is a first step in recognizing the misery he's caused. The Tyrion of even aGoT would not have recognized his part in Oppo's death, or have served on the poleboat the way he did. DwD Tyrion is dark, but he's also changing, acknowledging crimes he never would have.

[Lewton]

Aren't you just reasserting that there is still a possibility the theory is correct? Still waiting for evidence with bated breath.

I think you might not understand what evidence actually is. The fact that Aerys had the hots for Joanna and that at least some of her children display certain traits IS evidence that her child(ren) might be a Targaryen(s) (again, could be Tyrion, could be the twins, could be none of them). Evidence is just something that gives ground for belief (or disbelief), and all the "Tyrion/the twins are secret Targaryens" theories did not crop up accidentally. Evidence is not conclusive proof, and there is certainly nothing resembling that for this theory. But there is certainly enough evidence to entertain the possibility, and frankly I don't know what to say if you can't see that.

[butterbumps!]

I think you might not understand what evidence actually is. The fact that Aerys had the hots for Joanna and that at least some of her children display certain traits IS evidence that her child(ren) might be a Targaryen(s) (again, could be Tyrion, could be the twins, could be none of them). Evidence is just something that gives ground for belief (or disbelief), and all the "Tyrion/the twins are secret Targaryens" theories did not crop up accidentally. Evidence is not conclusive proof, and there is certainly nothing resembling that for this theory. But there is certainly enough evidence to entertain the possibility, and frankly I don't know what to say if you can't see that.

lol, Straits doesn't know what evidence is. He's going to love that.

No, the fact that Aerys had the hots for Joanna is evidence that Aerys had the hots for Joanna, not that Tyrion might be a Targ. Is the fact that Sansa asked if Arya was her true sister also evidence of the possibility that Arya could be a bastard or a changeling?

[-Ghost-]

Ok, so is Tyrion liking dragons, having a black eye and black is close to purple, Aerys having a thing for Joanna, and Tywin being mean to him the best evidence there is?

[-Ghost-]

Is the fact that Sansa asked if Arya was her true sister also evidence of the possibility that Arya could be a bastard or a changeling?

I was just gonna bring that up!

She was stolen by a grumkin.