Did Catelyn abuse Jon for his whole life? - Part 2

[David Selig]

Things that Cat-apologists circulate here over and over are just strawmans to excite this circle-jerk. No, Cat was not required or expected to affectionally love Jon. Exactly who has ever demanded that? No, she was not required or expected to change diapers and wipe drool.

What? I've seen this demand made literally hundreds of times in the previous reincarnations of this topic. Ran and Mormont probably have seen thousands of times.

Even the showrunners of the TV series demand it.

Cat did not say send Jon to the wall, but Ned had no intentions to send him away at all. It his her insistence that he be taken away from Winterfell.

And that would be wrong because....? Not her child, it was up to Ned to take care of Jon.

As far as Cat knows, KL is as good a place for Jon as any other. People there aren't more prejudiced towards bastards than anywhere else.

[SeanF]

There is nothing outrageous about Catelyn's desire to "send Jon away." Most noble boys would expect to be sent to squire for another lord or knight at the age of 13 or 14. And most noble boys of that age would be only too pleased to exchange Winterfell for a place at Court.

[Dicer]

Well, apart from anything else, it's simply not true to say that there would have been 'nothing wrong' with Tyrion sleeping with Sansa by Westerosi standards. Tyrion clearly understands that it's morally dubious, because that's why he doesn't do it. When he's contemplating doing it, he feels disgust at himself. Plenty of other characters consider it morally dubious too: even Tywin says that he only needs to do it once.

But that's what I am saying. By Westeros standards if Tryion had slept with Sansa it would not have been rape. They were married. It was legal. Why would people consider something morally wrong if it was legal and alright in their culture. WouId Ned think it was morally wrong to cut off a deserter's head even though it was legal to do so? I don't think marital rape as a concept exists in Westeros. But Tyrion understands that it would be wrong to do that and hence refrains. He goes against the grain and does not do it because of his personal morality. Not the code of morality that's prescribed to by Westeros. The people in the red keep certainly expected that Tyrion would sleep with Sansa. The stable boys were sniggering at him because he did not do it. Even the Lannisters have their code of morality sometimes.

We have a similar situation between Dany and Dhrogo (Which Martin calls a love story). They were married and Dhrogo had every right to sleep with Dany and sees nothing morally wrong in it. No one there does except maybe Dany. But I can see what happened between them as rape and wrong.

Meanwhile, Robert was ashamed of what he did to Cersei, and Cersei clearly agrees that it was wrong.

Of course Cersei thinks that it is wrong. She is forced to sleep with someone she immensely dislikes. I think if anyone were to ask Jon, he would say that Catelyn's treatment of him was wrong too. Did we hear Jon say that Catelyn was right to treat him that way? He rightly blames Ned for being a bastard (Unlike Catelyn) but his strong dislike of Catelyn should tell us something about how he views her treatment of him.

Where does it say that Robert was ashamed to sleep with Cersei and that he felt it was wrong to do so? He does say this:

"Oh, Cersei is lovely to look at truly, but cold...the way she guards her cunt, you'd think she had all the gold of Casterly Rock between her legs".

Does this sound like a man who is ashamed of sleeping with his wife against her will?

You're failing to distinguish between something not being legally a crime in Westeros, and something being completely morally unremarkable in Westeros. That's your first problem.

Is marital rape mentioned as being morally wrong in Westeros? Is arranged marriages (Ex: Arya with the 22nd Frey son) mentioned as being morally wrong?

(As for the rape Tyrion commits in Pentos, let's be clear: it's not that sleeping with a sex slave would 'be considered' rape by us. It's that Tyrion actually did rape her. That is a fact, and there is no aspect of cultural difference or moral relatism to it. The issue there is that raping a slave is not considered a crime in Pentos - but again, it's clearly something that many characters regard as morally wrong.)

And that's the personal morality of individual characters and not the morality of a particular place. The culture of places like slavers bay have a different kind of morality. The Dothraki have a different kind of morality. Legal or not, even morally many people in Pentos would not think that there's anything wrong with sleeping with a sex slave. It's not about what is legal or illegal. But about morality. Illyrio mopatis would probably sleep with a sex slave everyday and not give two twigs about it. But Tyrions self hatred when he sleeps with the sex slave shows us that it was wrong and and is rape. Would Illyrio call Tyrion a rapist for sleeping with a sex slave?

In contrast to the above, where numerous character regard these actions as morally reprehensible in the story, nobody regards Cat's emotional distance from Jon as being in any way immoral or bad.

Nobody regards Tyrion as a rapist in Essos (Except the sex slaves) and Westeros. Nobody regards King Robert a rapist in Westeros (Except Cersei). They hated his whoring ways, but a rapist? I don't think so. Would Ned have associated with a rapist? Why would anyone call out Catelyn for treating a bastard child like a bastard?

They only draw the line at the point where Tyrion can be criticised regardless of the perspective: the fact that the marriage was literally forced, the idea that he might consummate it. Similarly with Robert: people accept that in Westeros, marriages are not for love and that wives and husbands have a duty to sleep together even if they do not love each other. They draw the line at the husband drunkenly forcing himself on the wife, something that is wrong under any circumstances.

But then how is Robert supposed to have little Baratheon babies if Cersei absolutely did not want to sleep with him as she stated. She was unwilling. It would have been rape whether Robert was drunk or not. Are you saying that if Robert was sober and Cersei was still unwilling, then it would not have been rape?

Many of the marriages in Westeros are forced. If Lyanna had to marry Robert she would most likely have been forced into it and not because she wanted to marry him. If Arya had to marry the Frey son, she would have to be forced into it. I just can't see her going docilely and willfully into this marriage. The line that separates forced and arranged marriages in Westeros is very thin.

Your third problem is that unlike the things that Robert and Tyrion get criticised for, the situation with Cat and Jon is materially different than any situation that would actually exist in the modern world. We don't live in castles. Most of us don't live in extended social units that go beyond the family. We certainly don't live in a situation where a woman can have her husband force the presence of his bastard child on his wife against her wishes.

We also certainly don't live in a situation where a child would have to live with step parents that treat him cruelly. In today's world a child can complain at school or to his teachers or his friends and have social services take him away. But in Jon's situation he is stuck there with no way out. Both Jon and Catelyn are put in situation where they can't get out. In such a situation I would expect the adult to be the bigger person and not blame the kid for their spouse's mistakes.

It's perfectly reasonable to point out that Cat probably had very little day-to-day contact with Jon and had no expectation from anyone that she would care for him in any way. It's perfectly reasonable to point out that many people don't take this into account when judging her actions. It's perfectly reasonable to point out that Cat was in a situation that simply doesn't occur in modern societies, unlike, say, marital rape, which clearly does. None of this is a double standard.

No one expects her to care for him. As many people have pointed out again and again and again the point is not that she should be a mother to him, but that she treat a little child with some basic decency and kindness. It's not hard to do. Would calling him by his name in any way hurt the chances of her own kid to inherit? No. Would acknowledging his presence and a kind word then and there hurt her kid's chance to inherit? No.

There are situations in todays modern world too where one step parent is put in a situation where he/she has to take care of a child that is not theirs. There are situations where everything is not solved easily by divorce. Child abuse and child neglect still occurs today. Children are still caught between adults who don't like each other or who take out their anger on them.

[SeanF]

We also certainly don't live in a situation where a child would have to live with step parents that treat him cruelly. In today's world a child can complain at school or to his teachers or his friends and have social services take him away. But in Jon's situation he is stuck there with no way out. Both Jon and Catelyn are put in situation where they can't get out. In such a situation I would expect the adult to be the bigger person and not blame the kid for their spouse's mistakes.

No one expects her to care for him. As many people have pointed out again and again and again the point is not that she should be a mother to him, but that she treat a little child with some basic decency and kindness. It's not hard to do. Would calling him by his name in any way hurt the chances of her own kid to inherit? No. Would acknowledging his presence and a kind word then and there hurt her kid's chance to inherit? No.

There are situations in todays modern world too where one step parent is put in a situation where he/she has to take care of a child that is not theirs. There are situations where everything is not solved easily by divorce. Child abuse and child neglect still occurs today. Children are still caught between adults who don't like each other or who take out their anger on them.

There's nothing about Catelyn's treatment of Jon that would result in social workers removing him from the Starks, if they lived in our world. Really, Jon had it pretty good at Winterfell.

[mormont]

But that's what I am saying. By Westeros standards if Tryion had slept with Sansa it would not have been rape. They were married. It was legal. Why would people consider something morally wrong if it was legal and alright in their culture.

Because illegal and immoral are not synonyms?

The fact remains that people in Westeros clearly do consider Robert's actions morally wrong, including Robert himself, and consider that what Tyrion was going to do in sleeping with Sansa morally dubious at best. That is clear, and I'm afraid you can't simply handwave it away by saying 'why would they?' Nor will it do to claim that it's down to Tyrion's personal morality, as if personal morality were somehow independent of moral codes. That's just ridiculous.

We have a similar situation between Dany and Dhrogo (Which Martin calls a love story). They were married and Dhrogo had every right to sleep with Dany and sees nothing morally wrong in it. No one there does except maybe Dany. But I can see what happened between them as rape and wrong.

And numerous readers agree with you. Even those who don't, acknowledge that the Dany/Drogo situation is inherently very problematic. In any case, this says absolutely nothing about the issue of whether you're correct that there's a double standard applied in Cat's case.

Where does it say that Robert was ashamed to sleep with Cersei and that he felt it was wrong to do so?

We're speaking here of the occasions on which he used physical force, not every occasion on which he slept with her. Cersei recounts in ADWD how he was ashamed the next morning, denying that he did it or blaming it on the wine. This is not controversial. Robert was ashamed of his behaviour. That's a fact.

Would Ned have associated with a rapist?

Ned did not know about it. He did know about Robert hitting Cersei, again not illegal, but again clearly shameful. Ned finds it so, so does Robert.

Your whole argument rests on the idea that the only things that can be regarded as immoral are crimes. Do I even need to point out why this doesn't stand up?

Why would anyone call out Catelyn for treating a bastard child like a bastard?

Why indeed?

We also certainly don't live in a situation where a child would have to live with step parents that treat him cruelly.

We don't. But luckily, this is irrelevant to the discussion. For one thing, Jon had no step-parents, at least that he knew of. He believed Ned to be his actual father and he never believed Cat to be his step-mother. Even then, Ned certainly didn't treat Jon cruelly, and neither did Cat. Being distant and unfriendly is not the same as treating someone cruelly.

These are the very things we're talking about. The above sentence is simply an attempt to beg the question, not to discuss it.

There are situations in todays modern world too where one step parent is put in a situation where he/she has to take care of a child that is not theirs.

I know this very well. I am a step-parent, and my role as such did not end (in my eyes) when his mother and I divorced. But that's got nothing to do with the current discussion, because Cat is not in anything like the position I was and am in.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

There is a quote in Jon's PoVs that he says that indicates that Cat counted his bites. That shows to me that she wasn't just cold to him. I will post the part later because now I don't have the book.

[David Selig]

There is a quote in Jon's PoVs that he says that indicates that Cat counted his bites. That shows to me that she wasn't just cold to him. I will post the part later because now I don't have the book.

If Jon Snow the mind reader thinks so, it must be the gospel truth.... :rolleyes:

Nobody regards Tyrion as a rapist in Essos (Except the sex slaves) and Westeros. Nobody regards King Robert a rapist in Westeros (Except Cersei).

Of course they don't know, nobody knows what they did, except Jorah in Tyrion's case, and he was in the same boat himself. If Tyrion's actions were known n Westeros, my guess is a lot of people would consider it rape - after all they are very much against slavery there.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

If Jon Snow the mind reader thinks so, it must be the gospel truth.... :rolleyes:

If we don't see in Jon's and Cat's PoVs then how we can have an opnion or know anything? :dunno:

edit: I found the quote

Jon wondered how Lady Catelyn's sister would feel about feeding Ned Stark's bastard. As a boy, he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite

adwd page 256

[Dicer]

Because illegal and immoral are not synonyms?

The fact remains that people in Westeros clearly do consider Robert's actions morally wrong, including Robert himself, and consider that what Tyrion was going to do in sleeping with Sansa morally dubious at best. That is clear, and I'm afraid you can't simply handwave it away by saying 'why would they?' Nor will it do to claim that it's down to Tyrion's personal morality, as if personal morality were somehow independent of moral codes. That's just ridiculous.

Who are these people who consider that Robert sleeping with Cersei was wrong? Which people thought that he raped Cersei? I don't recall Robert saying that he was ashamed of sleeping with Cersei? When did this happen? You keep saying that people in Westeros considered Robert a rapist but I recall nothing of this in the books.

Which people thought that Tyrion sleeping with Sansa was wrong? Where was it acknowledged in the book by anyone that if he slept with her it was morally reprehensible? Did it say anywhere that all the people in KL and in the red keep considered Tyrion a rapist because he was going to sleep with her? Did the stable boys laugh at him because he was not a rapist? I am afraid you are the one doing the hand waving by generalising and using terms like 'the people of Westeros clearly think it was morally wrong' when we have no evidence of this.

And yes, in many cases, personal morality is different from the moral code. Stannis personal moraity is different from Davos' morality even though they both eschew the same moral code. Stannis would think that the ends justify the means, Davos would disagree. Jon's morality is different from Ned's even though he was brought up on Ned's moral code. Ned would probably be rigid and unyielding and insist that the law is the law, while Jon would try to bend the laws and see nothing morally wrong with that. Jamie and Cersei were brought up on the same moral code. Do you think they have the same morality?

We're speaking here of the occasions on which he used physical force, not every occasion on which he slept with her. Cersei recounts in ADWD how he was ashamed the next morning, denying that he did it or blaming it on the wine. This is not controversial. Robert was ashamed of his behaviour. That's a fact.

Of course Cersei thinks he was ashamed and felt bad. Cersei is the victim here. But from Robert's POV he did not feel bad about what he did with her. Did he tell his close friend Ned about this? No. I quoted Robert talking about Cersie in my earlier post. Did that sound like a man ashamed of sleeping with an unwilling bride? How can you take it as a fact when Cersei who absolutely hates Roberts and sees it as rape calls Robert ashamed. Is Cersei a reliable narrator?

Don't think so, then. But you're wrong.

Well, if I am wrong can you point out who calls out Tyrion for being a rapist in Essos and who calls out Robert as a rapist in Westeros for sleeping with his wife?

Ned did not know about it. He did know about Robert hitting Cersei, again not illegal, but again clearly shameful. Ned finds it so, so does Robert.

I am not talking about Robert hitting her. I am talking about Robert sleeping with Cersei. When Cersei told him that she did not like sleeping with Robert and he called out Lyanna's name Ned said that he pitied them both. He did not call Robert a rapist.

Your whole argument rests on the idea that the only things that can be regarded as immoral are crimes. Do I even need to point out why this doesn't stand up?

Where do I say this? I am talking about things like marital rape which is clearly not a crime in Westeros. I point out many immoral things in Westeros that are not crimes in Westeros.

Why indeed?

Exactly. Like why no one calls out Tyrion in Essos for raping a sex slave. Or Dhrogo for raping Dany.

We don't. But luckily, this is irrelevant to the discussion. For one thing, Jon had no step-parents, at least that he knew of. He believed Ned to be his actual father and he never believed Cat to be his step-mother. Even then, Ned certainly didn't treat Jon cruelly, and neither did Cat. Being distant and unfriendly is not the same as treating someone cruelly.

Yes, we don't. I brought it up because people keep insisting that Cat would never be in similar situation in modern times. I was pointing out that Jon would not be in a similar situation either in modern times and he was in as tough a spot as Cat. But unlike Cat he had to suffer the most. Cat took a hit to her pride, Jon had to grow up knowing he was an outsider in his own home. And ended up not having a home in the end.

And no matter how many times you repeat it, Cat was not just 'distant and unfriendly'. I can be distant and unfriendly to a person and yet still call him/her by their name. I can be distant and unfriendly and still acknowledge someone when they are in the room with me. I can be distant and unfriendly and still not deny a child their home. I can be distant and unfriendly and still not treat a child like I don't want them near me. It can happen.

Ned called out Catelyn for being cruel when she wanted Jon gone from WF and send to the wall. As pointed out she herself feels guilt about that later.

And we have this:

“He cannot stay here,” Catelyn said, cutting him off. “He is your son, not mine. I will not have him.” It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

What does she mean by this? Why would it be unkind to Jon if Ned left him behind? WF was his home too. Robb was his friend and brother.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I don't recall Robert saying that he was ashamed of sleeping with Cersei?

It should be clear that he was though. No matter how you value how Cersei comments on them in her head, his words are not really open to interpretation.

He had the grace to look ashamed. “It was not me, my lady,” he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. “It was the wine. I drink too much wine.”

[David Selig]

If we don't see in Jon's and Cat's PoVs then how we can have an opnion or know anything? :dunno:

Wait, what?

My point was that since Jon is not a mind reader, even if he thought Cat was "counting his bites", that doesn't prove anything.

[SeanF]

Who are these people who consider that Robert sleeping with Cersei was wrong? Which people thought that he raped Cersei? I don't recall Robert saying that he was ashamed of sleeping with Cersei? When did this happen? You keep saying that people in Westeros considered Robert a rapist but I recall nothing of this in the books.

.

It's during AFFC. Cersei is lying in bed with Lady Merryweather, and thinking back on her marriage to Robert. She recalls struggling under him when he was drunk, and him forcing her legs apart to have sex with her, and how he'd maul her breasts and leave her bruised.

She recalls telling him the following morning that he hurt her, and he looks embarassed and blames the wine. Neither of them uses the term "marital rape" (which neither of them would have heard of) but Cersei and Robert both believe that Robert behaved badly.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

My point was that since Jon is not a mind reader, even if he thought Cat was "counting his bites", that doesn't prove anything.

No he is not a mind reader but it shows that she was more than indifferent, cold and chose not to interact with him. This shows that she was abusing (at least mentally) and controlling over him.

[Dicer]

It's during AFFC. Cersei is lying in bed with Lady Merryweather, and thinking back on her marriage to Robert. She recalls struggling under him when he was drunk, and him forcing her legs apart to have sex with her, and how he'd maul her breasts and leave her bruised.

She recalls telling him the following morning that he hurt her, and he looks embarassed and blames the wine. Neither of them uses the term "marital rape" (which neither of them would have heard of) but Cersei and Robert both believe that Robert behaved badly.

Is feeling embarrassed about being drunk when sleeping with his wife the same as feeling guilty for raping someone?! Does Robert feel guilty and ashamed about this? Does he confess to Ned that he feels bad about sleeping with Cersei? His own behavior does not indicate this. Like I mentioned:

"Oh, Cersei is lovely to look at truly, but cold...the way she guards her cunt, you'd think she had all the gold of Casterly Rock between her legs".

Again, does this sound like a person who is morally conflicted about inflicting marital rape on his wife?

[SeanF]

Well, if I am wrong can you point out who calls out Tyrion for being a rapist in Essos and who calls out Robert as a rapist in Westeros for sleeping with his wife?

.

Tyrion calls himself out, describing himself as a "vile wretch" before having her again. This isn't necessarily due to his having an unusually enlightened moral code. He comes from a society that would regard forceible prostiution as a sin.

[Dicer]

Tyrion calls himself out, describing himself as a "vile wretch" before having her again. This isn't necessarily due to his having an unusually enlightened moral code. He comes from a society that would regard forceible prostiution as a sin.

Yes, I know Tyrion calls himself one. I pointed that out in my post, if you read it. I am asking who in Essos (apart from Tyrion) calls out Tyrion as a rapist for sleeping with sex slaves?

[SeanF]

Is feeling embarrassed about being drunk when sleeping with his wife the same as feeling guilty for raping someone?! Does Robert feel guilty and ashamed about this? Does he confess to Ned that he feels bad about sleeping with Cersei? His own behavior does not indicate this. Like I mentioned:

Again, does this sound like a person who is morally conflicted about inflicting marital rape on his wife?

He's not embarassed about being drunk during sex, when Cersei speaks to him. He's embarassed about forcing his wife to have sex with him, and hurting her, and so blames the drink.

And why would he want to tell this to Ned? He knows Ned has a rather different moral code to his own. He knows that Ned would be less than impressed if he said "I like to get drunk, maul by wife's breasts, forcibly penetrate her, and leave her covered in bruises."

[Dicer]

He's not embarassed about being drunk during sex, when Cersei speaks to him. He's embarassed about forcing his wife to have sex with him, and hurting her, and so blames the drink.

Again, is it enough for someone to feel embarrassed about raping someone while drunk? If he considers marital rape to be morally wrong, should he not feel guilty/remorse about doing it?

And why would he want to tell this to Ned? He knows Ned has a rather different moral code to his own. He knows that Ned would be less than impressed if he said "I like to get drunk, maul by wife's breasts, forcibly penetrate her, and leave her covered in bruises."

Oh yes, telling Ned about how Cersei 'guards her cunt' is so much more honorable and no doubt impressed Ned with how moral Robert was.

Anyways, I think I have veered Off Topic here, so apologies for that. This discussion is not about Robert and Cersei.

[David Selig]

No he is not a mind reader but it shows that she was more than indifferent, cold and chose not to interact with him. This shows that she was abusing (at least mentally) and controlling over him.

It shows no such thing.

I assume this is the quote you are talking about:

"As a boy, he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite"

Nothing to see here really. Jon felt it? How exactly?

[Kittykatknits]

Again, is it enough for someone to feel embarrassed about raping someone while drunk? If he considers marital rape to be morally wrong, should he not feel guilty/remorse about doing it?

Oh yes, telling Ned about how Cersei 'guards her cunt' is so much more honorable and no doubt impressed Ned with how moral Robert was.

Anyways, I think I have veered Off Topic here, so apologies for that. This discussion is not about Robert and Cersei.

Robert in GOT did nothing but avoid responsibility, run from responsibility, and hide from making any decisions. His choice of words, to deflect all blame from him to Cersei is quite in line with Robert's character. It's not to show that he's honorable, just one more example where it's not his fault. He's a coward.

Notice the actual quote regarding the rape, Cersei explicitly uses the word "ashamed" and he once again blames his actions on something else- the wine. It's typical Robert because nothing is ever his fault or his problem.

The two incidents support each other quite well.

As to the actual topic of this thread, I notice that the use of the word "step mother" keeps coming up despite the fact that Cat is NOT Jon's step mother and not a single character in the series expects her to be.