Did Catelyn abuse Jon for his whole life? - Part 2

[Lady Blue Rose]

None of this happened. Theon was never master of arms. Cat never insisted Jon to be sent to the Wall.

Cat did not say send Jon to the wall, but Ned had no intentions to send him away at all. It his her insistence that he be taken away from Winterfell.

“Jon must go,” she said now.

“He and Robb are close,” Ned said. “I had hoped …”

“He cannot stay here,” Catelyn said, cutting him off. “He is your son, not mine. I will not have him.” It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

The look Ned gave her was anguished. “You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned.”

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband’s eyes. “They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself.”

“And none of them has ever been seen at court!” Ned blazed. “The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—”

Later on, she thinks of Jon at the Wall and feels guilt.

“Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned’s bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once”

You are right, Theon was never Master of Arms, he was Jon's trusted war companion. My bad, somehow as time wne t by I just associated one with the other.... Same logic to what I said applies- Had Jon been there, he would have occupied Robb's most trusted position.

That's quite a stretch.

Sansa was engaged to Joff (and that's taken very seriously in Westeros - only the High Septon can release you from an engagement vow), so she was choosing between family and future family. Bran was taking a huge risk going way North of the Wall, Rickon is probably safer elsewhere.

Yes Sansa was engaged to Joff, but she did not do this because she saw him as family. She did it for the same reason she betrayed her fathers trust and ran to Cersei to tell her about her father's plan to send her away- because it threatened her supposed fairy tail ending which, sadly, she never got (or is yet to get). At this point, her father had already told her that he did not want her to marry Joff and to be discreet and trust him as her Dad. Was that not her betraying her family? I understand that a million arguments can be made as to why this is justifiable, but short of the story, it is her choosing some other desire, duty, or yearning before her family.

As for Bran, I understand part of his development as green-seer has to happen up North but he believes that only because two strangers are telling him so. He does not know for sure that he NEEDS to go North. He chooses the possibility of meeting the crow North instead of remaining with his brother who clearly needed family as he already felt abandoned by everyone else.

Again, not saying whether they're the right/wrong choices, just saying that they are not the choices that place family first. And, in Cat's values family comes first even at the cost of making the wrong choice or betraying your son/king in order to serve family.

[The Night's Prince]

I hear arguments trying to put the blame on Ned and his actions. Yet, where is the personal accountability? When do we stop blaming other people and their actions for the reason why someone treats someone else poorly? And this doesn't pertain to Jon because he is a child and is therefore absolved, and also he didn't treat Catelyn poorly, so get that terrible counterargument out of your heads. Now the fact that her real children from her own womb could see past her obvious coldness and treat Jon like a peer speaks volumes about Catelyn's petty and "if you aren't from my loins you don't get a smile or a pat on the head EVAR!" attitude towards Jon. Now abuse can be seen as something that was done for a good amount of time. So yes I think there are shades of abuse there in that she never deviated from her behavior since he was brought to Winterfell and clearly acted differently with the other 5 children than with him. Neglect is a form of abuse which is what she did to him. Emotional neglect. So I redact my statement about shades of abuse, she did abuse him. The icing on the cake was when she called him by name for the first time ever and told him, "It should have been you." Grief be darned. She has the presence of mind to realize this was the last time she would ever see him and she made the conscious effort to think of that statement after seeing it was in fact Jon coming in and intentionally waited till he was literally one more physical step out of her life forever to outright audibly say it. She's like a freaking teenager and it makes me sick. She should have stayed dead.

[Lady Blue Rose]

I don't blame her for saying 'it should've been you'. I don't think it meant something else, just that she was being overly earnest. Why should Bran die, when in her eyes the one that didn't belong was Jon. It is understandable and even normal that she felt this in her moment of grief.

What really rubbed me the wrong way and what I think gave an insight into their relationship was her behavior and his reactions to it. She told him to leave because he wasn't wanted (again I can see how this could be the grief talking). His reaction however was to he think how once that would've sent him running or even made him cry but now, it only made him angry because soon he would be a brother of the NW and would face worse dangers than Catelyn. She then proceeded to threaten to call the guards.

This is where I felt we were given insight into their relationship. She was a bit more than cold and indifferent towards Jon, she was demeaning, dismissive and threatening (not in a physical way). Her attitude had made him feel threatened in the past (as he states he would've ran or cried).

I do not expect for Cat to love, nor be a second mother, heck not even a friend to Jon. I even respect her decision of not getting to know him. But she goes beyond that, and her behavior is not justified. She at least owed him the common decency that one would have towards a stranger. She did not even treat the servants this way.

Cat was not abusive physically but she was less than decent with Jon, and making a child live in a state of fear in the one and only home he knows is a form of abuse. I think in a way she used him as a scapegoat for all her frustration and anger.

[Minsc]

Cat did not say send Jon to the wall, but Ned had no intentions to send him away at all. It his her insistence that he be taken away from Winterfell.

“Jon must go,” she said now.

“He and Robb are close,” Ned said. “I had hoped …”

“He cannot stay here,” Catelyn said, cutting him off. “He is your son, not mine. I will not have him.” It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

The look Ned gave her was anguished. “You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned.”

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband’s eyes. “They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself.”

“And none of them has ever been seen at court!” Ned blazed. “The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—”

Seems to me that is Ned is responsible seeing how he refused to provide Jon with any other acceptable options when he left besides to go to the wall. Seeing how he refuses to take him to King's Landing nor did he ever make any plans where Jon could foster with any of his bannermen.

[Lady Blue Rose]

Seems to me that is Ned is responsible seeing how he refused to provide Jon with any other acceptable options when he left besides to go to the wall. Seeing how he refuses to take him to King's Landing nor did he ever make any plans where Jon could foster with any of his bannermen.

Ned had no plans to foster him since he did not intend to send him away, it was Cat who gave an ultimatum that if Ned was not there, she would not keep Jon. Jon was 14, almost a man grown- wards are usually sent over as children; it is clear that Ned would've taken Jon with him if he could, bus as Cat knew very well (since she sat Jon with the help in order to avoid insulting the royals with a bastard) he was not welcomed in court. She did not leave him many options; she was kicking Jon out of the only home he ever knew.

[Daena the Defiant]

Ned had no plans to foster him since he did not intend to send him away, it was Cat who gave an ultimatum that if Ned was not there, she would not keep Jon. Jon was 14, almost a man grown- wards are usually sent over as children; it is clear that Ned would've taken Jon with him if he could, bus as Cat knew very well (since she sat Jon with the help in order to avoid insulting the royals with a bastard) he was not welcomed in court. She did not leave him many options; she was kicking Jon out of the only home he ever knew.

Isn't that after Jon has already announced his intention to join the Night's Watch, to which Ned agreed, all the while Catelyn watched Ned make the decision in silence?

[Lady Blue Rose]

Isn't that after Jon has already announced his intention to join the Night's Watch, to which Ned agreed, all the while Catelyn watched Ned make the decision in silence?

No. At this point Ned did not know that Jon was curious about the night's watch. Jon spoke about the NW possibility with Benjen and Cat was not there. This happens at night when Lysa's box arrives and Ned finally decides that he will go to KL. In fact, Ned decides that he will not tell Jon until he HAS to, so that Jon will be able to enjoy his last days.

[Daena the Defiant]

No. At this point Ned did not know that Jon was curious about the night's watch. Jon spoke about the NW possibility with Benjen and Cat was not there. This happens at night when Lysa's box arrives and Ned finally decides that he will go to KL. In fact, Ned decides that he will not tell Jon until he HAS to, so that Jon will be able to enjoy his last days.

Bzzzzt, Incorrect.

Check your text.

[Synteis]

If people are going to be talking about abuse in the modern sense and the standards of their society, it's no wonder that people are arguing about whether or not Catelyn abused Jon. It's unclear in the books what they would consider abuse of a child since we see very different standards from different characters. In their society, men are expected to have bastards but not to bring them home and as several people have pointed out, bastards are often dangerous to the nobility (while recognizing that there was been successful bastards: one I believe was the Hand of the King and there are several other "virtuous" bastards).

People who study history work very hard not to apply their standards to the historical period. Those biases will inevitably pop up but by acknowledging that they present an issue to the study of that period, historians hope that they will be better able to keep them in check or at least to acknowledge them.

From what we've seen of Westerosi society, Catelyn behaves towards Jon in an acceptable manner. She is not expected to be courteous towards him or to mother him but her husband, Ned wants her to treat Jon with common courtesy. To what extent she does is debatable since we don't see much of her and Jon before Robert and co. come but as some people have pointed out, Jon's POV suggests that while she might have ignored Jon (or not include him as she does during the feast) when she was alone with him (rarely I imagine), she was more vocal about her dislike of him (stemmed from her jealousy of the "other women" who she seems to believe, based on Jon's presence at Winterfell, Ned loved very much and her anger at Ned for putting them into this situation).

From Jon's POV, the dichotomy between the way Ned and the Stark children treat him and Catelyn treats him makes things much more difficult for him. While a bastard would normally be raised by his mother and had a status as a highborn bastard amongst the smallfolk, Jon is put in the opposite situation. As far as I can tell, as a child he had no one to look after him except (maybe) Old Nan. Being deprived of love and touch is very harming for a child's development and whoever the blame lies with, that means that Jon was emotionally abused as a child. While Ned did provide him with schooling and a certain degree of approval, enough that his children would be see him as one of their own, he also, as we see when Jon decides to go to the NW, probably was distant with Jon in an attempt to spare Catelyn's feelings and because that's the Old Way.

Am I saying that women when given a child have to love and nurture it? No. Catelyn was certainly put in a difficult position by Ned but I also think that while when Jon is fourteen it's easier to understand Catelyn's POV, if there were scenes of Jon when he was a toddler and a young child, people would find it harder to completely forgive Catelyn especially since she seems to have been very warm with her own children. I think that the picture that someone painted earlier of Jon as a toddler trying to understand why he wasn't allowed to call her mommy or to be loved and hugged by her the way Robb was is heartbreaking. If he and all the other Stark children had been raised by nurses and tutors and many people seem to do in Westeros, I'm sure the situation would have been less hard on him. In fact it is Catelyn's affection for her own children that means that Jon feels like he was emotionally abused, although he doesn't word it that way. And maybe he was given love and touched by a wet nurse but that's not stated in the books either.

tl;dr: When we talk about abuse and the expectations of Westersi society, we should understand that we're talking about abuse in a modern sense since we're never shown what the laws on child welfare/abuse are (and I doubt they have them beyond laws against child rape and the teachings of the various religions). Catelyn was not expected by her society to do anything other than obey her husband's wishes and help keep the house, which she did. But a child who is not loved or touched especially when surrounded by children who are, is the victim of emotional abuse. To what extent this happened to Jon is not described explicitly in the text but it seems likely that it did to a large extent. But because we're talking about modern definitions of abuse in a non-modern society, I think that saying that Catelyn did or did not abuse him is too complicated to leave it there.

[Minsc]

Ned had no plans to foster him since he did not intend to send him away, it was Cat who gave an ultimatum that if Ned was not there, she would not keep Jon. Jon was 14, almost a man grown- wards are usually sent over as children; it is clear that Ned would've taken Jon with him if he could, bus as Cat knew very well (since she sat Jon with the help in order to avoid insulting the royals with a bastard) he was not welcomed in court. She did not leave him many options; she was kicking Jon out of the only home he ever knew.

Seems like Ned was pretty short sighted about Jon's future then. Moreover, it pretty absurd for an individual to burden someone with shame and humiliation for 14 years because of their mistake then expect that individual to solely care/provide for that shame and humiliation when they are going to leave that person for a number of years.

Jon would be no more shamed and humiliated in King's Landing, then Catelyn would be if forced to provide the sole care for her husband's bastard.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Bzzzzt, Incorrect.

Check your text.

I won't be rude and say Bzzzzt to you! I believe Lady Blue Rose is correct.

Ned had no idea Jon wanted to join the Watch when Catelyn said Jon had to leave Winterfell the same time that Ned left for KL. Ned was in a full rage and flipping out on Catlyn until Maester Luwin interjected and said that Benjen told him Jon wanted to join the Watch. Then, Catelyn was silent while Ned digested that.

[Lady Blue Rose]

Bzzzzt, Incorrect.

Check your text.

I am very certain of this. I have the book in my hands right now. Jon talks to Benjen about joining the NW in ch. 5 and Benjen says no. Then in Ch. 6, after Ned just had sex with Cat, Master Luwin enters and when Ne is about to rip Cat a new one for demanding that Jon be sent away Master Luwin mentions that Jon had shown interest in the NW. Ned is never shown talking to Jon about the NW.

[Lady Blue Rose]

Seems like Ned was pretty short sighted about Jon's future then. Moreover, it pretty absurd for an individual to burden someone with shame and humiliation for 14 years because of their mistake then expect that individual to solely care/provide for that shame and humiliation when they are going to leave that person for a number of years.

Jon would be no more shamed and humiliated in King's Landing, then Catelyn would be if forced to provide the sole care for her husband's bastard.

Well, Cat did not care for Jon. And like I said, I don't judge Cat for how she feels towards Jon. I don't expect her to treat her as one of her own. I judge her for making a point out of being mean and at times cruel to Jon. She is shown as a respected and loved lady of the house by their servants, she could have at least shown Jon that same courtesy. She just constantly punishes Jon for what Ned did. I am not saying she should be motherly but not so mean spirited that the child should fear her and run away from her in tears.

Ned's responsability or handle of the situation would be an interesting topic. See where people stand.

[Minsc]

Well, Cat did not care for Jon. And like I said, I don't judge Cat for how she feels towards Jon. I don't expect her to treat her as one of her own. I judge her for making a point out of being mean and at times cruel to Jon. She is shown as a respected and loved lady of the house by their servants, she could have at least shown Jon that same courtesy. She just constantly punishes Jon for what Ned did. I am not saying she should be motherly but not so mean spirited that the child should fear her and run away from her in tears.

Ned's responsability or handle of the situation would be an interesting topic. See where people stand.

She didn't make a point out of being mean and at times cruel to Jon. She was simply distant towards him and wished he was somewhere else. Furthermore, there is extreme difference between being lady of the house and being the illegitimate child of your spouse's infidelity.

[Lady Blue Rose]

If people are going to be talking about abuse in the modern sense and the standards of their society, it's no wonder that people are arguing about whether or not Catelyn abused Jon.....But because we're talking about modern definitions of abuse in a non-modern society, I think that saying that Catelyn did or did not abuse him is too complicated to leave it there.

BEST EXPLANATION!

[Synteis]

I should probably edit this to say "a society which is not our own" since "non-modern" has decidedly negative connotations though I personally wouldn't want to live in the Lands of Ice and Fire at least not as they stand currently in the books.

[Stannis ftw]

This is where I felt we were given insight into their relationship. She was a bit more than cold and indifferent towards Jon, she was demeaning, dismissive and threatening (not in a physical way). Her attitude had made him feel threatened in the past (as he states he would've ran or cried).

I do not expect for Cat to love, nor be a second mother, heck not even a friend to Jon. I even respect her decision of not getting to know him. But she goes beyond that, and her behavior is not justified. She at least owed him the common decency that one would have towards a stranger. She did not even treat the servants this way.

Cat was not abusive physically but she was less than decent with Jon, and making a child live in a state of fear in the one and only home he knows is a form of abuse. I think in a way she used him as a scapegoat for all her frustration and anger.

This is well put and to the point.

She might have had a justifiable grudge (to Ned), but to take the grudge to a child, hold it against a child over years and make it known is simply a big fail and cannot be justifiable. For people who genuinely feel it is justifiable, I just have nothing to add.

Things that Cat-apologists circulate here over and over are just strawmans to excite this circle-jerk. No, Cat was not required or expected to affectionally love Jon. Exactly who has ever demanded that? No, she was not required or expected to change diapers and wipe drool. She probably didnt do that for her own children. Just to act with basic decency and respect. This is not rocket science.

Funniest is some people here even seem to believe the Medieval perception about trecherous bastards. She had to watch out or else! Lol.

[Dicer]

Funniest is some people here even seem to believe the Medieval perception about trecherous bastards. She had to watch out or else! Lol.

Something else that is funny is how it's just Catelyn that does no wrong when she behaves as expected by Westeros society.

If Tyrion had slept with Sansa it would have been rape. Even though they were married and there would have been nothing wrong according to westeros norms if Tyrion had slept with Sansa. Tyrion sleeping with a Pentosi sex slave is rape according to us, but no one in Pentos would consider it rape. Robert forcing himself on Cersei would be marital rape even though I doubt Robert would think of it that way as forced and arranged marriages seem to be the norm. Catelyn selling Arya for a bridge may not rise eyebrows in Westeros, but it would definitely make some readers uncomfortable.

Tyrion and Robert are pilloried for their actions. But when Catelyn treats a bastard child like a bastard this is okay and justified because that's just the way bastards were treated and Catelyn had every right to treat him that way.

[SeanF]

Something else that is funny is how it's just Catelyn that does no wrong when she behaves as expected by Westeros society.

If Tyrion had slept with Sansa it would have been rape. Even though they were married and there would have been nothing wrong according to westeros norms if Tyrion had slept with Sansa. Tyrion sleeping with a Pentosi sex slave is rape according to us, but no one in Pentos would consider it rape. Robert forcing himself on Cersei would be marital rape even though I doubt Robert would think of it that way as forced and arranged marriages seem to be the norm. Catelyn selling Arya for a bridge may not rise eyebrows in Westeros, but it would definitely make some readers uncomfortable.

Tyrion and Robert are pilloried for their actions. But when Catelyn treats a bastard child like a bastard this is okay and justified because that's just the way bastards were treated and Catelyn had every right to treat him that way.

I disagree with that. Catelyn deserves sympathy, whether you are judging her by modern standards (how many wives would be expected to raise their husbands' illegitimate child as their own?) or whether you are judging her by the standards of Westeros (noblewomen shouldn't have their faces rubbed in their husbands' infidelity).

[mormont]

Something else that is funny is how it's just Catelyn that does no wrong when she behaves as expected by Westeros society.

If Tyrion had slept with Sansa it would have been rape. Even though they were married and there would have been nothing wrong according to westeros norms if Tyrion had slept with Sansa. Tyrion sleeping with a Pentosi sex slave is rape according to us, but no one in Pentos would consider it rape. Robert forcing himself on Cersei would be marital rape even though I doubt Robert would think of it that way as forced and arranged marriages seem to be the norm. Catelyn selling Arya for a bridge may not rise eyebrows in Westeros, but it would definitely make some readers uncomfortable.

Tyrion and Robert are pilloried for their actions. But when Catelyn treats a bastard child like a bastard this is okay and justified because that's just the way bastards were treated and Catelyn had every right to treat him that way.

Well, apart from anything else, it's simply not true to say that there would have been 'nothing wrong' with Tyrion sleeping with Sansa by Westerosi standards. Tyrion clearly understands that it's morally dubious, because that's why he doesn't do it. When he's contemplating doing it, he feels disgust at himself. Plenty of other characters consider it morally dubious too: even Tywin says that he only needs to do it once.

Meanwhile, Robert was ashamed of what he did to Cersei, and Cersei clearly agrees that it was wrong.

You're failing to distinguish between something not being legally a crime in Westeros, and something being completely morally unremarkable in Westeros. That's your first problem.

(As for the rape Tyrion commits in Pentos, let's be clear: it's not that sleeping with a sex slave would 'be considered' rape by us. It's that Tyrion actually did rape her. That is a fact, and there is no aspect of cultural difference or moral relatism to it. The issue there is that raping a slave is not considered a crime in Pentos - but again, it's clearly something that many characters regard as morally wrong.)

In contrast to the above, where numerous character regard these actions as morally reprehensible in the story, nobody regards Cat's emotional distance from Jon as being in any way immoral or bad.

Your second problem is that in fact Robert and Tyrion do receive some leeway for the cultural differences. After all, in a modern context, it would be absolutely repugnant for a character even to contemplate marrying a girl of 12 or 13, let alone to think about sleeping with her. People do take into account the fact that Westeros is different, that there it's legal to marry a child. They only draw the line at the point where Tyrion can be criticised regardless of the perspective: the fact that the marriage was literally forced, the idea that he might consummate it. Similarly with Robert: people accept that in Westeros, marriages are not for love and that wives and husbands have a duty to sleep together even if they do not love each other. They draw the line at the husband drunkenly forcing himself on the wife, something that is wrong under any circumstances.

Your third problem is that unlike the things that Robert and Tyrion get criticised for, the situation with Cat and Jon is materially different than any situation that would actually exist in the modern world. We don't live in castles. Most of us don't live in extended social units that go beyond the family. We certainly don't live in a situation where a woman can have her husband force the presence of his bastard child on his wife against her wishes. It's perfectly reasonable to point out that Cat probably had very little day-to-day contact with Jon and had no expectation from anyone that she would care for him in any way. It's perfectly reasonable to point out that many people don't take this into account when judging her actions. It's perfectly reasonable to point out that Cat was in a situation that simply doesn't occur in modern societies, unlike, say, marital rape, which clearly does. None of this is a double standard.

tl:dr - your comparison is of apples with oranges.