Did Catelyn abuse Jon for his whole life? - Part 2

[conon394]

mormont:

I agree I was using the terms some what sloppy, when I have time later I will try justify their use a bit better.

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Capturing Tyrion was actually the best decision made within a short amount of time, given the information that Cat had. She believed LF's story at that point in time and Tyrion was a huge threat if that were true. Cat could not risk Tyrion returning to King's Landing and letting his siblings know that Cat wasn't in Winterfell. In Cat's mind, the Lannisters would then be able to connect the dots and suspect that Cat/Ned were up to something / discovered their secret, which puts her family in KL in great danger.

You know I just don't see the logic here.

So the fact is Tyrion noted allowed she was not at Winterfell, LF and Varys already knew that as well. As she herself realized her 'arrest' could not be kept secret and so also her presence away from Winterfell assuming Varys and LF were trustworthy. Her Father was ill, her sister a bit out of it - any number of easy lies could have explained her location. If there as Lannister plot against her family arresting the Imp with no clear plan and no way to keep it secret was hardly likely to keep her family safe (as we later see), and it was quite likely to provoke a responce. She saw Robert entourage and knew how strong the Lannister presence was - better to look like ignorant rubes than show your hand. No I'm sorry Cat's action was rash and was driven by the same self centered desire that had previously led her to go to Kings landing and stew around at Bran bedside. She had Five Kids and two other boys, she was however the the Lady of Winterfell and she ignores her duty whenever it suits her. Sure maybe a quite message needed to be sent to Ned but not by her that was stupid and the double stupid squared of arresting Tyrion flowed out of that. Any number of loyal men could have been sent south with a sealed message, boys who wanted to squires at court but missed Roberts leaving, she could have as Ned's brother to send a recruiting man to KL with a message etc.

"Who to send? Who would be believed? Then she knew. Catelyn struggled to push back the blankets, her bandaged fingers as stiff and unyielding as stone. She climbed out of bed. “I must go myself.”"

Really Ned receives a party of know men from Winterfell or from his Brother with a sealed letter from his wife and the knife and he would say Oh that Cat what joker always with the pranks... Think for example without her rash only I can do actions Cat could have been at Winterfell when the Imp returned to be either casually wined and dined for info or detained in a place and time where no word would leak out to anyone.

[Lord Godric]

Hasn't Martin answered this for us already with a big fat "no!"

[Katsa]

So the fact is Tyrion noted allowed she was not at Winterfell, LF and Varys already knew that as well. As she herself realized her 'arrest' could not be kept secret and so also her presence away from Winterfell assuming Varys and LF were trustworthy. Her Father was ill, her sister a bit out of it - any number of easy lies could have explained her location.

I had initially thought of that--i.e. Cat using "visiting Lord father at Riverrun"--as an excuse but then I realised that it wouldn't have worked. If Cat were truly visiting Lord Hoster at Riverrun, why on earth would she keep it such a hush and take along only one rusty one knight when such visits would usually consist of a large group of men?

We, as readers, knew that Tyrion was innocent and nothing would have happened to Cat if she had let him go... but Cat did not know this.

If there as Lannister plot against her family arresting the Imp with no clear plan and no way to keep it secret was hardly likely to keep her family safe (as we later see), and it was quite likely to provoke a responce. She saw Robert entourage and knew how strong the Lannister presence was - better to look like ignorant rubes than show your hand.

If my memory serves me well, I believe Cat's initial plan was to hold onto Tyrion long enough so that he can be held in fair trial at KL. It worked have worked if Lysa hadn't given Tyrion that mockery of a trial. Then again, Lysa was the one who murdered her husband and has been under LF's influence for a long time.

No I'm sorry Cat's action was rash and was driven by the same self centered desire that had previously led her to go to Kings landing and stew around at Bran bedside. She had Five Kids and two other boys, she was however the the Lady of Winterfell and she ignores her duty whenever it suits her.Sure maybe a quite message needed to be sent to Ned but not by her that was stupid and the double stupid squared of arresting Tyrion flowed out of that. Any number of loyal men could have been sent south with a sealed message, boys who wanted to squires at court but missed Roberts leaving, she could have as Ned's brother to send a recruiting man to KL with a message etc.

I don't understand how you'd consider Cat leaving for KL to be selfish. If anything, it was a sacrifice she made to ensure Bran gets his justice and her family is safe from the Lannisters or whoever wishes to harm them. A sealed message is out of the question for a simple reason that it might be intercepted and read by an unintended recipient.

She was grief-stricken after Bran fell and ignored her duties for a bit. She realises that she needs to snap out of it after the second attempt on Bran's life. I don't see how this is selfish. It was a traumatic event that she needed time to recover from. I am not a mother but I'd imagine I need some time to grief if that were to happen to one of my children as well. Making a judgement call on Cat's character based on the brief time period when she was clearly incapacitated by grief is an inaccurate assessment of her overall character.

Have you any other evidence, apart from this, which shows that Cat has abandoned her duties?

[Theda Baratheon]

Time and time again I am deeply troubled as to the amount of people who feel a woman SHOULD love a child who is not her own.

I find this a very archaic and yes, sexist view to have.

Cat was cold, she wasn't even Jon's STEP-MOTHER, as Cat was already married to Ned when he brought another woman's child into their home.

Some people just have a strange, irrational hatred for Catelyn that I wish would not permeate these threads so often.

[David Selig]

Time and time again I am deeply troubled as to the amount of people who feel a woman SHOULD love a child who is not her own.

I find this a very archaic and yes, sexist view to have.

This.

Anyway, how is the Tyrion arrest relevant to this topic?

[Lord Godric]

Time and time again I am deeply troubled as to the amount of people who feel a woman SHOULD love a child who is not her own.

I find this a very archaic and yes, sexist view to have.

Cat was cold, she wasn't even Jon's STEP-MOTHER, as Cat was already married to Ned when he brought another woman's child into their home.

Some people just have a strange, irrational hatred for Catelyn that I wish would not permeate these threads so often.

Double this. People don't seem to judge Cat the same way they do others.

[Minsc]

Time and time again I am deeply troubled as to the amount of people who feel a woman SHOULD love a child who is not her own.

I find this a very archaic and yes, sexist view to have.

Cat was cold, she wasn't even Jon's STEP-MOTHER, as Cat was already married to Ned when he brought another woman's child into their home.

Some people just have a strange, irrational hatred for Catelyn that I wish would not permeate these threads so often.

I just like the standard where it seems like Catelyn is designated a terrible person that many fans hate because she is cold to her husband's bastard, yet Stannis is seemingly the greatest individual ever by many fans yet he is exactly as cold to his own biological daughter.

[Katsa]

Anyway, how is the Tyrion arrest relevant to this topic?

Sorry if I got off-topic. A poster pushed forth the idea that Cat is self-centred, which in his/her mind explains Cat's behaviour towards Jon, and used the Tyrion incident as an example. Which is an odd example, if you ask me. (You may make a (weak) case that such move is unwise but selfish??!!!) Couldn't resist replying to it. :)

I just like the standard where it seems like Catelyn is designated a terrible person that many fans hate because she is cold to her husband's bastard, yet Stannis is seemingly the greatest individual ever by many fans yet he is exactly as cold to his own biological daughter.

Boomz. :)

[The Storm Queen]

Sorry if I got off-topic. A poster pushed forth the idea that Cat is self-centred, which in his/her mind explains Cat's behaviour towards Jon, and used the Tyrion incident as an example. Which is an odd example, if you ask me. (You may make a (weak) case that such move is unwise but selfish??!!!) Couldn't resist replying to it. :)

Boomz. :)

But, but...he is one of the mennz! They do not have the same neverending quell of child loving like wimmen do, it is known!

[Dark_Sister]

The idea that Cat had the obligation to love Jon and/or Theon because she is a woman and a mother and that's in all women's nature confuses me, why should she? is not like she asked Ned to have them at Winterfell and then lose interest: Jon was there before she came to WF IIRC and Ned made it very clear he was going to stay there, raising a bastard among the legitimate children is not usual in Westeros, and Jon was the living proof of Ned's infidelity (at least that's what she thought), yes Jon was innocent, but that doesn't mean Cat has to love him to be a good person. And Theon was a hostage to keep the Greyjoys in check, why did Cat have to act like she was his mother?

[Lady Blue Rose]

I don't think Cat abused Jon but she never let him forget that he was not welcomed. She didn't even call him by his name- EVER, except for when he says goodbye to Bran. BTW, I don't judge her for wanting it to be Jon instead of Bran during a moment of anger. I think the reason she was never meaner was because she was scared of what Ned's reaction would be.

Truth be told, although never abusive, she was always mean, harsh and unforgiving towards Jon. I think, that more than talk about whether she liked Jon or not, a good thing to consider is the irony in her relationship to hime and the outcome of her behaviour.

1. Cat insisted Jon be sent to the Wall to keep him away from her children because he could not be trusted. The irony is that because Jon was not there, Robb named Theon master of arms (he def. would have chosen Jon before Theon had he been there) and ended up being betrayed (jon would've never betrayed him.

2. Catelyn's family sigil is family, duty, honor- in that order. While she always saw Jon as a threat to the family's integrity, it ends up being that he was the only one that lived up to her standard of family above all.

- Sansa chose her duty as Joff's betrothed over her loyalty to Arya (yes, I know she was scared bla, bla... but still she didn't chose family first)

- Bran left to go beyong the wall anf left the already confused with abandonment issues, Rickon alone with Osha

- Robb chose his honor as a warrior and duty as king in the north before the well being of Arya and Sansa, despite his mother's pleas.

- The only person of the Stark family who when left with a choice amongst these, chose family above duty and honor was Jon, the boy she would not trust with her family, when he decided to betray his honor by leaving his duty as a crow and going to help Arya and defend Winterfell.

Part of Cat's character arc, as unCat, I think, should be coming to terms with the fact that Jon has always been a loyal brother and that she will have to trust him to protect the younger siblings.

[David Selig]

1. Cat insisted Jon be sent to the Wall to keep him away from her children because he could not be trusted. The irony is that because Jon was not there, Robb named Theon master of arms (he def. would have chosen Jon before Theon had he been there) and ended up being betrayed (jon would've never betrayed him.

None of this happened. Theon was never master of arms. Cat never insisted Jon to be sent to the Wall.

2. Catelyn's family sigil is family, duty, honor- in that order. While she always saw Jon as a threat to the family's integrity, it ends up being that he was the only one that lived up to her standard of family above all.

That's quite a stretch.

Sansa was engaged to Joff (and that's taken very seriously in Westeros - only the High Septon can release you from an engagement vow), so she was choosing between family and future family. Bran was taking a huge risk going way North of the Wall, Rickon is probably safer elsewhere.

[StarkDragon]

Time and time again I am deeply troubled as to the amount of people who feel a woman SHOULD love a child who is not her own.

I find this a very archaic and yes, sexist view to have.

This.

I mean, anyone who hates Catelyn for Jon I hope to the Seven don't like Stannis.

Cause, Edric Storm isn't his kid as well, and he, sure with urging, is ready to kill him.

And more, Stannis is actually related to this bastard. Heck, doesn't he pretend to be fostering him?

[Dove]

Catelyn was far, far more kind and understanding about the Jon Snow situation than a lot of people would have been. I've never gotten the Cat hate, especially because of her "treatment" of Jon. She's absolutely not obligated to love a child that's not her own, and if you think she treated Jon unjustly you can blame Ned as well - as lord, he more than had the "power" to put a stop to any ill treatment if it was going on.

The worst thing she ever said to him was under heavy, heavy emotional duress, and even then that's far better than a lot of other bastards would have been treated on a daily basis.

[the trees have eyes]

It's basic empathy. Or lack thereof. Catelyn was incapable of loving any child who wasn't her own. Theon would have been a frightened and confused 9 year old. As hers and Ned's ward, she could have taken him under her wing and been a surrogate mother. Instead she seemed to have mistrusted him from the very beginning and made him know it. I don't think the Walders would have found her someone pleasant to be a ward to, either. Jon Arryn was able to love his wards, but all Catelyn ever saw were other people's children who'd better not harm her precious children if they know what's good for them!

I find it just so hard to believe Catelyn never developed any sort of maternal or protective feelings towards Jon. She's known him since he was a baby and seen him grow up, but she still won't consider him as part of the family. That seems really cold. There is just a lack of compassion for, as she says in the clip, a "motherless child".

I can't get the image out of my head of Jon as a little child, 3, 4, growing up as Robb's brother, unable to understand why Robb had a mother who would hug him and love him, and he didn't. I wonder if he ever tried to call Catelyn "Mummy", and what her reaction was. Or if somehow she'd managed to make him realize his place even before he could talk.

No. no. no. a thousand times no. When Ned brings Jon home or Theon is taken as a hostage / ward it is not suddenly Catelyn's responsibility to mother them. It is not a moral failing on her part that she does not. They are not part of her family and they are not her children, either natural or foster children. There is no expectation in medieval society that a prominent noblewomen will play mother to children who are not her own. A number of people seem to be projecting Catelyn as the wicked step mother in a two up two down semi who had to go to cruel and unusual lengths to freeze out the children under her feet. Medieval society had wet nurses, nannies and servants, you might find that the role of mother for a noblewoman was very different to her natural blood children than the image you have from our own society. Catelyn is not a foster mother, don't think of her that way.

[Kittykatknits]

Catelyn was far, far more kind and understanding about the Jon Snow situation than a lot of people would have been. I've never gotten the Cat hate, especially because of her "treatment" of Jon. She's absolutely not obligated to love a child that's not her own, and if you think she treated Jon unjustly you can blame Ned as well - as lord, he more than had the "power" to put a stop to any ill treatment if it was going on.

The worst thing she ever said to him was under heavy, heavy emotional duress, and even then that's far better than a lot of other bastards would have been treated on a daily basis.

Yes, this. I'm never sure what to make of fandom propensity to shift blame from Ned to Catelyn for the situation her and Jon were put in. It's a situation that he created (regardless of why)and reinforced every single day. If we want to use the term "abuse" (and I'm loath to do so), the source is Ned, not Catelyn. He's aware of her feelings about Jon and disregards them and we see him doing that on screen during the same scene where they discuss sending Jon to the wall. He once again unfairly attempts to shift blame from himself to Catelyn by calling her cruel, failing to see just how cruel he is being to her.

Well, we know that other bastards in the series were killed, became whores, and became servants in their father's household so it's safe to say that Jon had it well off comparatively speaking.

[SeanF]

Catelyn was far, far more kind and understanding about the Jon Snow situation than a lot of people would have been. I've never gotten the Cat hate, especially because of her "treatment" of Jon. She's absolutely not obligated to love a child that's not her own, and if you think she treated Jon unjustly you can blame Ned as well - as lord, he more than had the "power" to put a stop to any ill treatment if it was going on.

The worst thing she ever said to him was under heavy, heavy emotional duress, and even then that's far better than a lot of other bastards would have been treated on a daily basis.

The very first time I read AGOT, I took Ned's criticism of Catelyn at face value, and thought her comments to Jon when he came to see Bran were typical of the way she'd treated him. As I read on into the series, I was able to think about her position, and realise how unfair the situation was that Catelyn was placed in. I also realised that it was quite out of character for her to say "It should have been you."

Yet, much as I respect and sympathise with Catelyn, she's not a character I can ever really warm to (I can warm to Dany, Jaime, and Tyrion, despite the fact that they're all much worse people than Catelyn). Do other posters feel that way?

[mormont]

[mod] People, we have a 'no fanfic' policy. That means don't post it, but it also means don't quote from it, and don't ask for or offer to supply links to it. [/mod]

[SeanF]

[mod] People, we have a 'no fanfic' policy. That means don't post it, but it also means don't quote from it, and don't ask for or offer to supply links to it. [/mod]

Sorry. I'll remember that in future.

[Daphne23]

Yet, much as I respect and sympathise with Catelyn, she's not a character I can ever really warm to

I felt this way about Catelyn initially, so I do understand where you're coming from. I disliked her at the beginning of Game for 'it should have been you' but gained respect for her throughout the course of the novel, especially when she called for peace at the end. However, I would certainly never have listed her as a favourite character then. I actually remember very clearly when I felt emotionally connected with Catelyn - when she received Ned's bones in Clash, which I thought was a heartbreaking scene, and I felt more and more empathy for her from that point on as, despite her best efforts, life just got worse. However, if there was never a moment like that for you, I can see why you haven't warmed to her, and nobody should criticise you for that. (I can see that Arya, for example, is a well-written character with many strong points, yet I've never taken her to my heart despite multiple re-reads; it's simply personal preference.)