Did Catelyn abuse Jon for his whole life? - Part 2

[Theda Baratheon]

I think that Ramsay got his ideas for torturing Theon from the rumours he heard about the things that Catelyn had done to Jon, when Ned was away from Winterfell.

She never called him Jon, because to her, he was "Reek."

"Jon remembered the long weeks he had spent in the dungeons of Winterfell, whenever Lord Stark was called away on business. On one occasion, in an extremity of hunger, he had caught and eaten a rat, only to punished for it by Lady Stark. "Bastard, the rats of Winterfell belong to my Lord Husband", she sneered. "Did he give you permission to eat one." She had taken a toe for that."

I am laughing so much right now. :lol:

[LordStoneheart]

The thing that most annoys me when people demonize Catelyn's actions is when they say "he was just a baby, Catelyn should have loved it."

I know that Westeros is a male-dominated society with old ways to us, but we don't need to think in those old ways. If you set a baby in front of a woman she is not required by any standard, back then or now, to love it and mother it. She can King Solomon it for she cares, especially if it's a boy her husband made while married but away from her.

[linneus]

It's basic empathy. Or lack thereof. Catelyn was incapable of loving any child who wasn't her own. Theon would have been a frightened and confused 9 year old. As hers and Ned's ward, she could have taken him under her wing and been a surrogate mother. Instead she seemed to have mistrusted him from the very beginning and made him know it. I don't think the Walders would have found her someone pleasant to be a ward to, either. Jon Arryn was able to love his wards, but all Catelyn ever saw were other people's children who'd better not harm her precious children if they know what's good for them!

I find it just so hard to believe Catelyn never developed any sort of maternal or protective feelings towards Jon. She's known him since he was a baby and seen him grow up, but she still won't consider him as part of the family. That seems really cold. There is just a lack of compassion for, as she says in the clip, a "motherless child".

I can't get the image out of my head of Jon as a little child, 3, 4, growing up as Robb's brother, unable to understand why Robb had a mother who would hug him and love him, and he didn't. I wonder if he ever tried to call Catelyn "Mummy", and what her reaction was. Or if somehow she'd managed to make him realize his place even before he could talk.

[Brienne Of Bombay]

Being cold doesn't amount to abuse.

[Sansa_Stark]

It's basic empathy. Or lack thereof. Catelyn was incapable of loving any child who wasn't her own. Theon would have been a frightened and confused 9 year old. As hers and Ned's ward, she could have taken him under her wing and been a surrogate mother. Instead she seemed to have mistrusted him from the very beginning and made him know it. I don't think the Walders would have found her someone pleasant to be a ward to, either. Jon Arryn was able to love his wards, but all Catelyn ever saw were other people's children who'd better not harm her precious children if they know what's good for them!

I find it just so hard to believe Catelyn never developed any sort of maternal or protective feelings towards Jon. She's known him since he was a baby and seen him grow up, but she still won't consider him as part of the family. That seems really cold. There is just a lack of compassion for, as she says in the clip, a "motherless child".

I can't get the image out of my head of Jon as a little child, 3, 4, growing up as Robb's brother, unable to understand why Robb had a mother who would hug him and love him, and he didn't. I wonder if he ever tried to call Catelyn "Mummy", and what her reaction was. Or if somehow she'd managed to make him realize his place even before he could talk.

I'm sorry but that last part made me :( a little.

That would be cold as hell if she did.

[Katsa]

*sigh*

It's basic empathy. Or lack thereof. Catelyn was incapable of loving any child who wasn't her own. Theon would have been a frightened and confused 9 year old. As hers and Ned's ward, she could have taken him under her wing and been a surrogate mother. Instead she seemed to have mistrusted him from the very beginning and made him know it. I don't think the Walders would have found her someone pleasant to be a ward to, either. Jon Arryn was able to love his wards, but all Catelyn ever saw were other people's children who'd better not harm her precious children if they know what's good for them!

Jon Arryn loving his wards was a bonus, not a mandatory criteria for being deemed as a good person. There is a stark contrast between Robert and Ned being fostered at the Vale, and Theon being fostered at Winterfell. Theon is a hostage, a punishment for his father openly rebelling against the Iron Throne. Cat was right to view him suspiciously.

I don't blame Cat for distrusting Jon either, given other examples of bastards that we have. (Falia Flowers in the Reach, Daemon Blackfyre usurping Daeron's crown etc.) It wasn't common practice to raise bastards alongside their trueborn siblings in the same household, either; I believe the Starks were the only ones who did this, probably due to their wolfish pack mentality. That said, Cat had never physically or verbally abused Jon. She pretty much ignores him. It makes perfect sense for Cat, in the context of the world she lives in, to react the way she did.

I think a lot of posters who criticized Cat also posted that, if they were in her shoes, they'd get a divorce but never channel their hate towards a child. The irony is that in stating so, they admitted to 1) not forgiving their husband for the affair, 2) not wanting anything to do with the child / accept the innocent child as a member of the family and be a mother to him/her. The only thing Cat did differently was to stay in a marriage with Ned since divorce is not an option in the context of medieval Westeros.

[linneus]

*sigh*

I stopped reading after the "sigh", so if you honestly want people to pay the full attention to your arguments that you believe they deserve, I'd take it out.

[mormont]

It's basic empathy. Or lack thereof. Catelyn was incapable of loving any child who wasn't her own.

As I've said before: Cat is one of the only noble characters to show any concern for the fates of children who are not her own. (Ned being another, of course.) She repeatedly seeks peace, explicitly using the argument that the men who're dying are all some mothers' sons. She even wonders if Jon's mother worries about him the way she worries about Robb.

In addition, she shows empathy when thinking about Brienne's feelings, Mya's feelings, and numerous other characters' feelings.

She didn't love Jon, no. But the idea that she lacks empathy is not consistent with what is actually written in the books. The argument here seems to be that because she doesn't love Jon, therefore she must lack empathy, but that's just not how people work. They're more complicated than that. Cat did not love Jon, but she did have empathy.

[Katsa]

I stopped reading after the "sigh", so if you honestly want people to pay the full attention to your arguments that you believe they deserve, I'd take it out.

Forgive me if I've caused any offense. It is against my better judgement to use it, and I didn't mean to discredit your post in any way but the whole "Cat should have been a mother to Jon" insistence by some fans is just something I've never understood. I don't believe there are many real world, modern day examples of a wife raising her husband's bastard child (which is a result of an affair that happened during a marriage) as her own. As I've mentioned in the my previous most (which you have ignored ;)), most fans who criticise Cat admit that they will not care for the child and seek divorce from their husband. I just really don't get why some fans still insist criticizing Cat for her treatment of Jon Snow when she hasn't done anything wrong, even by modern standards.

Would Cat have been a better person if she had loved Jon? Yes, but that would make her a Mary Sue and conflict with her character as portrayed in the books (which is ambitious and always on the lookout for her children's interests). Does not loving Jon makes Cat a horrible person? The answer to that is a huge no.

As I've said before: Cat is one of the only noble characters to show any concern for the fates of children who are not her own. (Ned being another, of course.) She repeatedly seeks peace, explicitly using the argument that the men who're dying are all some mothers' sons. She even wonders if Jon's mother worries about him the way she worries about Robb.

In addition, she shows empathy when thinking about Brienne's feelings, Mya's feelings, and numerous other characters' feelings.

She didn't love Jon, no. But the idea that she lacks empathy is not consistent with what is actually written in the books. The argument here seems to be that because she doesn't love Jon, therefore she must lack empathy, but that's just not how people work. They're more complicated than that. Cat did not love Jon, but she did have empathy.

Just wanted to add that this was a great post.

[Tommen]

I think that overall it's the word "abuse" that we're talking issue with. Their relationship was obviously cold. I doubt that Catelyn made a habit of verbally abusing him (and she almost certainly never physically abused him) but she did keep him at a distance and as a result Jon was an outsider despite how much love he and his siblings shared. Abuse or not, it was unfair.

[conon394]

She didn't love Jon, no. But the idea that she lacks empathy is not consistent with what is actually written in the books. The argument here seems to be that because she doesn't love Jon, therefore she must lack empathy, but that's just not how people work. They're more complicated than that. Cat did not love Jon, but she did have empathy.

I would disagree she is rather narcissistic and self centered. She put her own feeling in front of any other concern all the time be it taking Tyrion, Releasing Jammie, hating Jon (note an innocent) but not Ned who is both nominally his father and the one who brought him to winterfell. Her bitterness toward Jon is particularly problematic since it leads her to a completely unfounded judgment(s) about him and so make her actual good arguments about Theon loose traction, just as her emotional wallowing sessions and off the reservation actions make it difficult to take her serious when she is being level headed. I guess her Ned had been secret lovers or something I can her bitterness but as the Story stands she is just plain irrationally nasty.

I think that overall it's the word "abuse" that we're talking issue with. Their relationship was obviously cold. I doubt that Catelyn made a habit of verbally abusing him (and she almost certainly never physically abused him) but she did keep him at a distance and as a result Jon was an outsider despite how much love he and his siblings shared. Abuse or not, it was unfair.

"it should have been you"... Lot's of empathy there and just go back to the whole passage. Did Jon let Bran climb, no that would be his parents...

[Kittykatknits]

Perhaps my earlier post needs to be revised:-

""As they rested in the cave after making love, Ygritte asked "Your back is a mass of scars. Why?". The bitter truth had to be told. "It was Lady Stark's work. She whipped and flayed me, whenever my father was away from Winterfell. Yet, he could never tell Ygritte the whole truth - that his body had betrayed him. That each stroke of the whip from Lord Stark's young, firm-breasted, beautiful wife had excited them both."

Your posts in this thread had me laughing so hard. Thank you!

It's basic empathy. Or lack thereof. Catelyn was incapable of loving any child who wasn't her own. Theon would have been a frightened and confused 9 year old. As hers and Ned's ward, she could have taken him under her wing and been a surrogate mother. Instead she seemed to have mistrusted him from the very beginning and made him know it. I don't think the Walders would have found her someone pleasant to be a ward to, either. Jon Arryn was able to love his wards, but all Catelyn ever saw were other people's children who'd better not harm her precious children if they know what's good for them!

I find it just so hard to believe Catelyn never developed any sort of maternal or protective feelings towards Jon. She's known him since he was a baby and seen him grow up, but she still won't consider him as part of the family. That seems really cold. There is just a lack of compassion for, as she says in the clip, a "motherless child".

I can't get the image out of my head of Jon as a little child, 3, 4, growing up as Robb's brother, unable to understand why Robb had a mother who would hug him and love him, and he didn't. I wonder if he ever tried to call Catelyn "Mummy", and what her reaction was. Or if somehow she'd managed to make him realize his place even before he could talk.

Theon was politely called a ward but he was actually a hostage, sent to WF in order to keep his father in line. If Balon had risen against the throne, Ned may have ended up killing him someday. Why do you feel Cat should have developed motherly feelings towards him yet not say the same for Ned?Jon Arryn was a very different situation as Robert and Ned were wards in every sense of the word. It was a mutual agreement with Jon having the choice of whether to take them on or not.

As for the claim that Cat lacks empathy, that isn't supported by the text. You've been given several counter examples by mormont already. Catelyn repeatedly thinks of those who died during the war and points out that vengeance won't bring any of them back. She feels for her sister once she learns the truth of Tansy, her father when she understands the guilt that he has been living with and so on.

Also, women are not required to develop motherly instincts towards children. It's not lack of compassion, it's realistic. Some women don't like kids, some women feel uncomfortable around them, some like their kids and not others. I find it hard to believe that so many expect her to have motherly instincts towards a child that isn't her own.

[Direwolfsigil]

I find it hard to believe that people can interpret so many passages in SOOO many ways here, and be so creative and smart about it, yet

Catelyn's " It should have been you" is only interpreted in seemingly one way, it could have a multitude of meanings, theres alot more story to be told and things in their past interactions we don't yet know about, they are only speculated.

I don't even want to say that it doesnt mean " It should have been you that fell out of that tower and lay here dying, but its not, its bran"

But that's not what she said, isnt it possible it has another meaning?

I know it is to me.

[Katsa]

I think that overall it's the word "abuse" that we're talking issue with. Their relationship was obviously cold. I doubt that Catelyn made a habit of verbally abusing him (and she almost certainly never physically abused him) but she did keep him at a distance and as a result Jon was an outsider despite how much love he and his siblings shared. Abuse or not, it was unfair.

That, I wholeheartedly agree with. It was unfair to both Jon and Cat, IMO.

I would disagree she is rather narcissistic and self centered. She put her own feeling in front of any other concern all the time be it taking Tyrion, Releasing Jammie...

Capturing Tyrion was actually the best decision made within a short amount of time, given the information that Cat had. She believed LF's story at that point in time and Tyrion was a huge threat if that were true. Cat could not risk Tyrion returning to King's Landing and letting his siblings know that Cat wasn't in Winterfell. In Cat's mind, the Lannisters would then be able to connect the dots and suspect that Cat/Ned were up to something / discovered their secret, which puts her family in KL in great danger.

Releasing Jaime like that was a stupid decision, I'd agree, and one made when she was grieving for the death of her two youngest sons. IMO, Robb should have traded Jaime for Arya and Sansa in the first place. He would have prevented the Lannisters from claiming Wintefell through Sansa (and Tyrion) and possibly arrange some alliance with the Tyrells by offering Sansa's hand in marriage.

...hating Jon (note an innocent) but not Ned who is both nominally his father and the one who brought him to winterfell. Her bitterness toward Jon is particularly problematic since it leads her to a completely unfounded judgment(s) about him and so make her actual good arguments about Theon loose traction, just as her emotional wallowing sessions and of the reservation actions make it difficult to take her serious when she is being level headed.

I think the perception of bastards is better explained in the D&E novella than the main ASoIaF series. Every trueborn noble was taught by their septons etc. that all bastards were bad since they were born out of lust and other sinful emotions. Even Egg believed this and had no reply for Dunk when he said that he (Dunk) is most likely a bastard. Jon, himself, bought into this propaganda and was desperate to prove to everyone that even bastards can be honourable and good. Cat's bitterness towards Jon and bastards, in general, is a result of social conditioning... further perpetuated by famous examples of bastards living up to the bad propaganda against them like Daemon Blackfyre, Ramsay Snow and Falia Flowers.

[conon394]

I don't even want to say that it doesnt mean " It should have been you that fell out of that tower and lay here dying, but its not, its bran"

But that's not what she said, isnt it possible it has another meaning?

I don't see how given her overall bitter and nasty tone in the preceding conversation and he unfounded mistrust of Jon when RObb indicates he will name him in his will...

[Direwolfsigil]

I don't see how given her overall bitter and nasty tone in the preceding conversation and he unfounded mistrust of Jon when RObb indicates he will name him in his will...

Her son is broken to pieces in her face and she hasnt ate or slept in days, her entire famliy has just vacated winterfell and left her alone to take care of him, roderick had been pestering her about political stuff, shes extremely agitated and in poor health from sleep deprivation, its noted.

after bran is attacked, she had to sleep four days to make up for it.

I can't say i blame her for being a bit of a bitch at that moment.

[mormont]

I would disagree she is rather narcissistic and self centered.

Narcissistic? If you think that word applies to Cat, I fear you don't really understand what it means. Narcissism means an excessive love of the self, something that Cat never demonstrates. Cersei is narcissistic. Jaime, too, to a lesser degree. But Cat? Not in any way. Narcissists lack empathy, and as we have seen Cat demonstrates empathy repeatedly. Narcissists are obsessed with their own appearance, and Cat travels without even a maid. Narcissists have trouble maintaining healthy emotional relationships, and Cat has a loving marriage and a loving family.

Self-centred? Again, Cat repeatedly offers to put aside her personal feelings and desire for vengeance in the interests of peace. How many other characters do that?

Really, this is not so much analysis as it is just wildly throwing around general insults against the character. This is a bad idea if you want people to take your argument seriously.

[Tommen]

"it should have been you"... Lot's of empathy there and just go back to the whole passage. Did Jon let Bran climb, no that would be his parents...

Fellow Cat hater :) although I don't really blame her/Ned for letting Bran climb, he would have been fine were it not for Jaime

[Minsc]

It's basic empathy. Or lack thereof. Catelyn was incapable of loving any child who wasn't her own. Theon would have been a frightened and confused 9 year old. As hers and Ned's ward, she could have taken him under her wing and been a surrogate mother. Instead she seemed to have mistrusted him from the very beginning and made him know it.

If I recall correctly, it seems more like Theon was in search of a father figure and their approval. Therefore, maybe it should have been Ned who reached out and comforted Theon instead of insuring that he wasn't constantly afraid of Ned beheading him.

[eggs]

If I recall correctly, it seems more like Theon was in search of a father figure and their approval. Therefore, maybe it should have been Ned who reached out and comforted Theon instead of insuring that he wasn't constantly afraid of Ned beheading him.

That would be kind of a bad idea if Ned actually needed to kill him.