Did Catelyn abuse Jon for his whole life? - Part 2

[Direwolfsigil]

SeanF, are you a Bolton? I just picked my Bolton avatar because I like the sigil, but your posts seem to betray your Bolton heritage ;)

I know :P Probably easier to explain than how a house that is nominally a Lannister bannerman suddenly goes along with the King of the North. Probably same reasoning why Asha is Yara, and not Asha. Sorry, but that I feel is just a gesture towards the simpleminded people, who can't tell names with two different initial vowels apart.

Thats exactly why it was done, according to the magazine i bought comparing the books to the show.

apparently asha and osha was hard for people to follow....

asha's suposed to be fairly good looking too, yarra OTOH..

[eggs]

What is more abusive not acknowledging a child who is not releated to you or taking a 7 year old child to watch you behead someone? If we are going to judge Cat on todays standards than Ned is a sick perverted father.

Terrible comparison. Cat isnt even abusive by modern standards.

[Akintosh]

I would rather have Cat's cold indifference/lack of love toward Jon than experience actual abuse. For some people they may find coldness something abusive, but people who were physically and mentally tortured by their parents and are abused (through child labor for example) would rather embrace the coldness and indifference. For them, it would be a blessing.

So no, I don't consider Catelyn abusive at all. The word abuse is a heavy word to be accused of, actually.

[SeanF]

if you actually read the original post atleast one poster (one of the most vociferous of the "Cat's actions constitute abuse" camp) came right out and said that the reason they felt that cat was abusive to jon was because of that exact situation that I described, that they themselves suffered at the hands of an abusive/neglectful stepparent and identify with Jon Snow. Arm chair psychology it is not, i'm just connecting the dots.

I'm glad that I've never had such an experience (I'm a step-parent myself).

Clearly, there are things in these stories that touch a nerve with some people, One of the most alarming posts I read here was from someone who said he dreamed of doing to his step-mother what Tywin did to his father's mistress.

[Dreadwolf]

"As they rested in the cave after making love, Ygritte asked "Your back is a mass of scars. Why?". The bitter truth had to be told. "It was Lady Stark's work. She whipped and flayed me, whenever my father was away from Winterfell."

Catelyn [in her Undead form] forged the pink letter knowingly this would cause Jon to abandon his NW duties and marsh to WF and finally to be double insured she also bribed Bowen Marsh to backstab Jon at first convinience. She did paid Rattleshi®t and Slynt as well but they failed her.

That is to confirm that She abused him deadly for his whole life indeed.

I'm glad that I've never had such an experience (I'm a step-parent myself).

Clearly, there are things in these stories that touch a nerve with some people, One of the most alarming posts I read here was from someone who said he dreamed of doing to his step-mother what Tywin did to his father's mistress.

It is really awful to be read or imagined.

As for your being step parent - my greatest personal respects. Strength and honor!

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Emotionally quite possibly, abuse is a very broad term though.

[the trees have eyes]

I think that Ramsay got his ideas for torturing Theon from the rumours he heard about the things that Catelyn had done to Jon, when Ned was away from Winterfell.

She never called him Jon, because to her, he was "Reek."

"Jon remembered the long weeks he had spent in the dungeons of Winterfell, whenever Lord Stark was called away on business. On one occasion, in an extremity of hunger, he had caught and eaten a rat, only to punished for it by Lady Stark. "Bastard, the rats of Winterfell belong to my Lord Husband", she sneered. "Did he give you permission to eat one." She had taken a toe for that."

"As they rested in the cave after making love, Ygritte asked "Your back is a mass of scars. Why?". The bitter truth had to be told. "It was Lady Stark's work. She whipped and flayed me, whenever my father was away from Winterfell."

:thumbsup: I must admit I groaned when I saw this thread part 2 but you have made it worthwhile!

Emotionally quite possibly, abuse is a very broad term though.

Which it shouldn't be else it makes it commonplace and effectively devalues the concept. No one should expect Catelyn to welcome or nurture Jon and the fact that she doesn't has been blown out of all proportion. We have exactly one example of her making hurtful comments to him and the circumstances are far from normal. Even if you want to imagine the worst of Catelyn what abut Ned? I find it hard to believe his vow to Lyanna would keep the boy alive only to let him be bullied or tormented or that Ned would permit that at all.

I think it's quite clear that Jon was raised with his siblings not apart from them and was loved by all of them and by Ned - just not by Catelyn. His bastardy is not her fault but it is her shame.

[The Storm Queen]

In the first thread I have often read that Catelyn should have shown Jon some love because he is family and that is what one (read: a woman) does for an innocent child. Leaving aside the problematic implication that all woman have a neverending supply of maternal love there is also another issue at hand here and I wonder why it is not pointed out more often.

- The idea that a family is a chosen association built on love and committment is a modern one. In Westeros, most marriages (at least the ones among nobleborn) are creations or consolidations of alliances, love might develope after a time but usually it is not the main motivator.

- If we go along with the modern idea of family (in order to call for Catelyn loving Jon) we also have to employ a modern concept of marriage. This in turn will tell us that if a man cheats on his wife and a child results, said wife is perfectly within her rights to say screw you and leave (without any grave political conseqences occuring).

- Unfortunately Catelyn critics often see Jon´s situation from a modern perspective (a step parent should love his/her spouse´s kid) but fail to see that Catelyn lacks the opting-out option a modern-day woman would have. A modern day woman can chose if she wants to accept a child that is not hers or if she wants to leave. Cat never had that choice.

[Lady Lea]

I'm glad that I've never had such an experience (I'm a step-parent myself).

Clearly, there are things in these stories that touch a nerve with some people, One of the most alarming posts I read here was from someone who said he dreamed of doing to his step-mother what Tywin did to his father's mistress.

jesus

[LordStoneheart]

I'm glad that I've never had such an experience (I'm a step-parent myself).

Clearly, there are things in these stories that touch a nerve with some people, One of the most alarming posts I read here was from someone who said he dreamed of doing to his step-mother what Tywin did to his father's mistress.

That's quite alarming if true.. But this is the internet so I find that quite hilarious.

[LordStoneheart]

she butt spank him when he was kid.

But he enjoyed it so it doesnt count as abuse :devil:

Oh god, I can just imagine the awful fanfics with this exact scene.

[TalalOfDorne]

Oh god, I can just imagine the awful fanfics with this exact scene.

I can see Cat haters using them as "real" evidence that she abused him his whole life. Anything to prove their false point.

[SeanF]

As for your being step parent - my greatest personal respec. Strength and honor!

Thank you.

:thumbsup: I must admit I groaned when I saw this thread part 2 but you have made it worthwhile!

Thank you.

Oh god, I can just imagine the awful fanfics with this exact scene.

Perhaps that's where Asha and Qarl got their role-playing ideas from?

[SeanF]

Oh god, I can just imagine the awful fanfics with this exact scene.

Perhaps my earlier post needs to be revised:-

""As they rested in the cave after making love, Ygritte asked "Your back is a mass of scars. Why?". The bitter truth had to be told. "It was Lady Stark's work. She whipped and flayed me, whenever my father was away from Winterfell. Yet, he could never tell Ygritte the whole truth - that his body had betrayed him. That each stroke of the whip from Lord Stark's young, firm-breasted, beautiful wife had excited them both."

[Toxspecific]

This thread has such disturbing posts. lol

[SilentSense]

Interesting discussion. A couple of observations:

-Jon Snow is obviously innocent and punishing him for other people's mistakes would be wrong.

-"Ought" is constrained by "can": Cately shouldn't have an obligation to do something that she cannot do, namely love Jon like her own children. Failing to love Jon isn't morally objectionable.

-But there's probably some room between Cately showing Jon motherly love (she can't do this and hence has no obligation to do this) and the treatment the books suggest she gave him over the years.

That's where Cately can be criticized. That and for the things we know she did at the start of the first book, where Ned goes "how can you be so damned cruel" and telling Joe him he should've died in Bran's place. But abuse? A big stretch imo.

[Sun]

I found her treatment of Jon, the child growing up in her house and with her children, reprehensible.

[SeanF]

I can see Cat haters using them as "real" evidence that she abused him his whole life. Anything to prove their false point.

I've just read one that's hilariously bad, in which Catelyn drags Jon by his ear into a torture chamber, and flogs him repeatedly with a spiked whip (and thoroughly enjoys doing so) and "can't wait to try out the other torture devices" on him. And some of the reviews are very positive, thinking it's quite in character for Catelyn to do this!

[thelittledragonthatcould]

timestamp='1365762886' post='4308747']

I found her treatment of Jon, the child growing up in her house and with her children, reprehensible.

What do you think happens to the real heirs family when a pretender takes the throne? All it takes is Ned to die early, this is medieval times after all, and some North men to decide to install the young Lord who looks like A Stark rather than a Tully and has called himself the 'lord of Winterfell' a hundred times and kill the real heirs to make it official.

Plus why do people keep on referring to a house, it's a huge castle with many staff. There would be nanny's and maids and a father to look after him. It's pretty sexist to suggest that just because at is female it's her responsibility to care for the children.

[Dark_Sister]

IMO no, Catelyn didn't abuse Jon, yes, she made a very cruel comment in a moment of grief, but that doesn't make her an abuser.

In general she was cold towards Jon and nothing else, why so many people think she had the moral obligation to be a mother to him is beyond me, Catelyn saw him as the living proof of her husband's infidelity and as a possible threat against her own children. Of course Jon is innocent and it's not his fault Cat saw him that way, but that doesn't mean Cat abused him.