[Book Spoilers] Theon and "Boy"

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

The fact that Ramsey knows about Bran/Rickon and yet does nothing to try to find them and make sure they do not return to claim their birthright baffles me. Granted they're kids and therefore he probably doesn't consider them a threat. But they won't stay kids forever and everyone in the North knows - the North rallies to the Starks, whether its Eddard, Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, etc. The Northmen marched in the snow for weeks to save 'Arya'. I don't remember in the books if Roose knows Bran/Rickon are alive but I feel like if he did, he'd have them hunted down.

Well, it's kind of a dual edged sword because everyone in the North believes them to be dead. As long as that is the case, then Robb's defeat leaves the North without a ruler, and it is easier for Roose to consolidate his power and position as Warden. But if they start sending out search parties for Bran and Rickon, then word will leak out that they aren't dead, and that's going to make it harder for Roose.

Plus, word of them hasn't popped up anywhere, so there's always the possibility that even though they escaped Winterfell, they really are dead.

[Theda Baratheon]

I totally spied a Ramsay.

[King of Hats]

I didn'y understand 'Ramsay's' line after returning with Theon. Something like 'look I found him and bought him back'. Didn;t sound like someone in charge

[Nezzer]

I didn'y understand 'Ramsay's' line after returning with Theon. Something like 'look I found him and bought him back'. Didn;t sound like someone in charge

He says "I brought him back, he killed the others". Like I said in another thread, I think this was to hide from his men that they are completely expendable to him. I doubt they would be so loyal to Ramsay if they learned that he would kill his own men for his mind games.

[I'll pay the iron price]

He says "I brought him back, he killed the others". Like I said in another thread, I think this was to hide from his men that they are completely expendable to him. I doubt they would be so loyal to Ramsay if they learned that he would kill his own men for his mind games.

I agree

[Toxspecific]

Well as it often happens my post was ignored so...

Theon Greyjoy is who? A hostage treated well by his captors who was taken from his family (if you can call those nuts a family) at a young age and taken to Winterfell. He never grew close to any Stark but Robb and he had no parent figures; Ned could not grow close to him because he might have to chop his head off one day. Robb was younger than Theon and often looked up to him; Theon himself had nobody to look up to.

More importantly, he had no parent figure. In a world like Westeros, so full of crimes and killing and fighting, you damn well need a guardian or parent figure to teach you how to go about doing good. Theon had none of that.

And suddenly, Theon Greyjoy, who has never been in an important decision making situation, finds himself siding with his real family over Robb to his later regret and taking over Winterfell. With no hope of holding it.

Suddenly his only choices are the Night's Watch and death. How fucked is he? Very fucked. Now my question, how could people expect him not to take rash decisions in a situation he was essentially a major noob in?

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Fanfic does not belong anywhere on this forum, and neither does fetishizing rape -- anyone's rape. Any more of that and bans will be handed out. Thank you. [/mod]

[Nobody of the canals]

Is it just me or does Boy remind anyone of Smeagol...

[Mulled Wino]

Well as it often happens my post was ignored so...

Theon Greyjoy is who? A hostage treated well by his captors who was taken from his family (if you can call those nuts a family) at a young age and taken to Winterfell. He never grew close to any Stark but Robb and he had no parent figures; Ned could not grow close to him because he might have to chop his head off one day. Robb was younger than Theon and often looked up to him; Theon himself had nobody to look up to.

More importantly, he had no parent figure. In a world like Westeros, so full of crimes and killing and fighting, you damn well need a guardian or parent figure to teach you how to go about doing good. Theon had none of that.

And suddenly, Theon Greyjoy, who has never been in an important decision making situation, finds himself siding with his real family over Robb to his later regret and taking over Winterfell. With no hope of holding it.

Suddenly his only choices are the Night's Watch and death. How fucked is he? Very fucked. Now my question, how could people expect him not to take rash decisions in a situation he was essentially a major noob in?

Theon received all the lessons that Robb, Jon and everyone did from Ned, Lewin, etc. He pledged his sword to Rob. He was in wars, with Robb and the Blackfish and privy to all of their strategic councils.

He betrayed him horribly and made aweful decisions.

His arrogance and idiocy brought him down.

[Toxspecific]

Theon received all the lessons that Robb, Jon and everyone did from Ned, Lewin, etc. He pledged his sword to Rob. He was in wars, with Robb and the Blackfish and privy to all of their strategic councils.

He betrayed him horribly and made aweful decisions.

His arrogance and idiocy brought him down.

LOL dude I'm talking about personal grooming not military teaching. Without parenting, its very easy to get mislead and go off in the wrong direction. Parents teach you about morals and such and emphasize it, nobody did that for Theon.

[Mulled Wino]

LOL dude I'm talking about personal grooming not military teaching. Without parenting, its very easy to get mislead and go off in the wrong direction. Parents teach you about morals and such and emphasize it, nobody did that for Theon.

Of course Ned taught him morals. The maester too.

[BananaSpice]

Of course Ned taught him morals. The maester too.

You can't just have morals talked at you without also having close mentors that you fully trust. There could never be 100% trust between Theon and Ned. It makes a lot of sense that Theon is constantly DESPERATELY striving for approval. In the show, that's why he follows Dagmer even though to most, it doesn't seem a good idea. It's the reason he switched back to his father's side (when he realized his father was actually on a different side). It's the reason he lets himself be manipulated by the wrong people and makes stupid, rash decision in order to avoid embarrassment and ridicule. He'll basically cling to anyone who makes him feel decent about himself.

Seriously, his life from young child to adult must have been exhausting, trying to prove himself ALL THE TIME. Like he refers to in his monologue this past episode, he could never just "be" ... it's really sad.

[Toxspecific]

Of course Ned taught him morals. The maester too.

Theon cleary says he never had such a relationship with Ned. And you have absolutely nothing to go by when you say Ned taught him morals as he would have his own children; my view (that Ned did not give him such counselling), however, does have the fact that Ned was said to not try to grow close to Theon because of what happens to hostages if their fathers rebel.

And we are not given any details of Maester Luwin's interaction with Theon before he takes Winterfell. Other than that one time he disses Theon while he's showing off (season 1, and if it is not in the books well we still have nothing). Then, when Theon technically becomes Lord of Winterfell, Maester Luwin then gives him advice because he is now Theon's castle's maester, bound by oaths.

I don't think Theon would have felt such a lack of belonging if Ned and Luwin had been as close to him as you seem to think they were.

[Mulled Wino]

Theon cleary says he never had such a relationship with Ned. And you have absolutely nothing to go by when you say Ned taught him morals as he would have his own children; my view (that Ned did not give him such counselling), however, does have the fact that Ned was said to not try to grow close to Theon because of what happens to hostages if their fathers rebel.

And we are not given any details of Maester Luwin's interaction with Theon before he takes Winterfell. Other than that one time he disses Theon while he's showing off (season 1, and if it is not in the books well we still have nothing). Then, when Theon technically becomes Lord of Winterfell, Maester Luwin then gives him advice because he is now Theon's castle's maester, bound by oaths.

I don't think Theon would have felt such a lack of belonging if Ned and Luwin had been as close to him as you seem to think they were.

Are you talking show only here?

[Theda Baratheon]

I completely agree with those saying that if Theon had been cared for more then this wouldn't have happened, however, I can't blame Ned because to him, Theon IS just a hostage. They take care of him well enough, but he's required in no way to show Theon any sort of affection; and he doesn't.

[BananaSpice]

I completely agree with those saying that if Theon had been cared for more then this wouldn't have happened, however, I can't blame Ned because to him, Theon IS just a hostage. They take care of him well enough, but he's required in no way to show Theon any sort of affection; and he doesn't.

Yeah, it's definitely not Ned's fault ... no one could have predicted how things went down in the story. Everybody probably just assumed that when Balon died, Theon would go back to be lord of the Iron Islands and marry somebody highborn. I think somebody says or thinks something about Ned trying to "soften" Theon (does anyone remember this?) but ... it's not like he tried THAT hard since he was keeping his distance for understandable reasons.

[Theda Baratheon]

Yeah, Ned's coldness is definitely understandable, I mean; this is a hostage who could end up needing to be killed one day. Theon could never have been a child of Ned's. Theon was never going to be a Stark, nor an Ironborn. It's sad really.

[Capt. Zemblanity]

Is it just me or does Boy remind anyone of Smeagol...

Hahaha. That's great... But 'Boy' is a lot smarter and sharper than smeagol. They both give me the willies.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

Well as it often happens my post was ignored so...

Theon Greyjoy is who? A hostage treated well by his captors who was taken from his family (if you can call those nuts a family) at a young age and taken to Winterfell. He never grew close to any Stark but Robb and he had no parent figures; Ned could not grow close to him because he might have to chop his head off one day. Robb was younger than Theon and often looked up to him; Theon himself had nobody to look up to.

More importantly, he had no parent figure. In a world like Westeros, so full of crimes and killing and fighting, you damn well need a guardian or parent figure to teach you how to go about doing good. Theon had none of that.

And suddenly, Theon Greyjoy, who has never been in an important decision making situation, finds himself siding with his real family over Robb to his later regret and taking over Winterfell. With no hope of holding it.

Suddenly his only choices are the Night's Watch and death. How fucked is he? Very fucked. Now my question, how could people expect him not to take rash decisions in a situation he was essentially a major noob in?

My love of the Starks kinda gave me blind hatred for theon in the books, I have to say Alfie as theon is great and changed my opinion. when you think about it you understand his choices and why he made the decisions he did because I think a lot of ppl would do the same no one is gonna choose the ppl who kept you prisoner no matter how well treated you were over your own blood no matter that you were called a "guest", a guest can leave at the end of the day unless you're with the Freys. Anyways I think theon is really one of the more realistic characters, he fucked up I think even he realised he made the wrong choice, but once its made you can't unmake it and everything you do after is a follow through and you just digging yourself deeper.

On a bit of a side note what would have happened to theon if the Starks weren't defeated,he was already in his twenties IIRC, I mean they wouldnt return him to the iron islands n I don't see anyman marrying his daughter to the son of a traitor and hostage living on charity.

[Toxspecific]

Are you talking show only here?

Nope. Books as well.

You say Ned and Luwin mentored him. I say they didn't. You don't have any detail, minute or not, to indicate that Ned and Luwin had a close bond with Theon. I, however, already gave one such small detail which very much indicated Ned did not get close to Theon. So there goes the mentoring, there goes the emphasis of morality in the brutal society he lives in.

Toss a guy like that into a fray of bloodshed and war and it cannot end well.

Disclaimer: None of this, pins any blame for anything on Ned; by all means he was exceedingly kind to Theon considering his position. Ned for the win.