[Book Spoilers] Theon and "Boy"

[Mulled Wino]

There really aren't any, which is why I'm always so confused about the Theon hate ... if you like ASOIAF, then what's the deal? I guess Dany might be the closest to a Mary Sue, but she's my other favorite character and has flaws, so idk.

It's not fair to say he earned it, tbh.

Also, haters, please tell me more about how the Starks "saved" him from his awful family by taking him hostage as a child under threat of death. :rolleyes: He certainly didn't "earn" that, and it's that event that molded him into the pitiful and confused person he is.

So your original comment makes absolutely no sense. Why would people who only like Mary Sue characters love ASoIaF?

The majority of us just dont give Theon an auto-pass because simply because he's confused. Personally, I think he's one of the best characters in the book as far a tragedies go, but I think he's a scumbag and not at all smart.

Nobody deserves a flaying, and I would loooove if he were somehow able to repay Ramsey personally, but I would like to see him dead as well.

[BananaSpice]

So your original comment makes absolutely no sense. Why would people who only like Mary Sue characters love ASoIaF?

The majority of us just dont give Theon an auto-pass because simply because he's confused. Personally, I think he's one of the best characters in the book as far a tragedies go, but I think he's a scumbag and not at all smart.

Nobody deserves a flaying, and I would loooove if he were somehow able to repay Ramsey personally, but I would like to see him dead as well.

It just seems like a lot of hate arguments against Theon are "he was mean to the Starks" or "he killed 2 boys" ... ok, well, it would be boring if he were just a super hero character who "became good" b/c he was "raised by the starks" and he "loved them" and was perfectly perfect in every way. Also, all the characters make mistakes and/or do some awful things, for the most part, and it seems like ppl are extra hard on Theon (compared to Jaime, The Hound, etc.)

I can't imagine being fascinated with his character without my heart bleeding for him, but maybe that's just me.

My biggest ASOIAF wish is for Theon and Dany to survive to the end. I will be furious if Theon dies in an anticlimatic way, though. If he's going to die, I want it to be amazing and tragic and sad and I will cry forever. I don't think his redemption arc is over yet.

I also don't think

[Ramsay Gimp]

Remember, it's not going to be multiple seasons of just torture in a dungeon. Eventually, Theon is let out to become Ramsay's pet :devil: I'm guessing that will happen in the early or middle section of season 4

[sifth]

It just seems like a lot of hate arguments against Theon are "he was mean to the Starks" or "he killed 2 boys" ... ok, well, it would be boring if he were just a super hero character who "became good" b/c he was "raised by the starks" and he "loved them" and was perfectly perfect in every way. Also, all the characters make mistakes and/or do some awful things, for the most part, and it seems like ppl are extra hard on Theon (compared to Jaime, The Hound, etc.)

I can't imagine being fascinated with his character without my heart bleeding for him, but maybe that's just me.

My biggest ASOIAF wish is for Theon and Dany to survive to the end. I will be furious if Theon dies in an anticlimatic way, though. If he's going to die, I want it to be amazing and tragic and sad and I will cry forever. I don't think his redemption arc is over yet.

I also don't think

Davos didn't kill any kids and I love him, lol

so after this week's episode I changed my opinion about Theon a bit. Book Theon is still a bag of dicks to me, while tv Theon is another story all together. I honestly like him and feel bad for the guy

[Maxthestig]

Yup, I was watching with subtitles, that's exactly what he said.

Loved this line. Lump in my throat

[Sidonie]

Also, all the characters make mistakes and/or do some awful things, for the most part, and it seems like ppl are extra hard on Theon (compared to Jaime, The Hound, etc.)

Yeah, a lot of people hate Theon...but not because he did things that were so much more terrible than say, the Hound. People hate Theon because he was so arrogant initially. People, in general, enjoy seeing arrogance (especially if undeserved) punished.

Anyhoo, I am really enjoying the Ramsay scenes so far.

In the books there was a sexual element to the way Ramsay tortured Reek. I wonder if we're going to see any of that in the hbo show.

[Minsc]

The majority of us just dont give Theon an auto-pass because simply because he's confused. Personally, I think he's one of the best characters in the book as far a tragedies go, but I think he's a scumbag and not at all smart.

I disagree with this repeated idea that Theon is some type of idiot, in how both his original plan with Robb was sound and smart strategic move so too was his idea regarding how to capture Winterfell with a handful of men. (Quite frankly, he performs no worse then Asha in this regard)

The problem that he faces is a personality flaw of him equally wishing to be a "Stark" thus instead of just burning and pillaging Winterfell like an Ironborn he allows this desire to dictate the decision that he stay and try to rule Winterfell like Ned Stark.

Is this foolish? Yes, but I would say it is no more idiotic then either Ned's or Robb's fatal decisions when they allowed their actions be dictated their wishes to act in a honorable manner.

[BananaSpice]

Yeah, a lot of people hate Theon...but not because he did things that were so much more terrible than say, the Hound. People hate Theon because he was so arrogant initially. People, in general, enjoy seeing arrogance (especially if undeserved) punished.

Anyhoo, I am really enjoying the Ramsay scenes so far.

In the books there was a sexual element to the way Ramsay tortured Reek. I wonder if we're going to see any of that in the hbo show.

That really makes a lot of sense ... I just don't see arrogance as THAT bad of a personality flaw, especially considering the situation. I think he tried to build himself up / clung to his name/family/honor in an attempt to counter all the distrust and hatred he faced in Winterfell. I understand why ppl don't like an arrogant prick in general, though. His arrogance also decreased over the entire second season / ACOK, though. And is obviously gone at this point in the story (after ADWD).

Davos didn't kill any kids and I love him, lol

so after this week's episode I changed my opinion about Theon a bit. Book Theon is still a bag of dicks to me, while tv Theon is another story all together. I honestly like him and feel bad for the guy

What difference do you see between book Theon and show Theon, though?

[Dove]

Davos didn't kill any kids and I love him, lol

so after this week's episode I changed my opinion about Theon a bit. Book Theon is still a bag of dicks to me, while tv Theon is another story all together. I honestly like him and feel bad for the guy

wh- this is silly

they're literally the exact same character, show Theon is just laying out his motives sooner and not in an inner monologue. it just took him longer to get to this revelation in the book

In the books there was a sexual element to the way Ramsay tortured Reek. I wonder if we're going to see any of that in the hbo show.

Not really, imo. I mean, him forcing Theon to get Jeyne "ready" on their wedding night was rape but aside from that & Theon's possible-castration there wasn't a directly sexual element between them. What there was was just another way of breaking Theon down, since he was so proud of his prowess with the ladies and all. Everything done was 100% about fracturing Theon's identity and humbling him pretty much because Ramsay resented his confidence and his birth. (And also the perk of getting a new "Reek" because Ramsay has a pretty standard, compulsive serial killer M.O. going on, with his women hunts always following the same pattern and his need to have a Reek.)

That makes Theon's comment about Robb even more meaningful, "He didn't have to lord it over me - he just had to be" or w/e he said. Ramsay's pretty much a twisted carnival funhouse mirror of Theon in his desire for acceptance and to be something he wasn't born to be.

[Theda Baratheon]

LOVED IT.

"The only father I knew was beheaded in King's Landing'' broke my heart. Alfie is fantastic AND GOD DAMN YES, I SPY A RAMSAY.

[Sidonie]

I think the show shows more of Theon's inner conflict, compared to the books.

For instance, you see him at Winterfell being reminded it's "Not your house" (Robb said this to Theon).

Even Tyrion mocks Theon for his "loyalty to [his] captors." I think even ROS made some kind of snarky comment to Theon, as well.

Then, in the show you see that Theon is really being egged on by Dagmar, to "prove" himself.

In the book, it seems like Theon just betrayed Robb out of his own desire for power.

Comparing the two, I'd definitely say TV Theon is more likeable than Book Theon.

[Sidonie]

Not really, imo. I mean, him forcing Theon to get Jeyne "ready" on their wedding night was rape but aside from that & Theon's possible-castration there wasn't a directly sexual element between them. What there was was just another way of breaking

I don't know. The relationship seemed very sexual in a sick, twisted way. What was the "Reek belongs to Ramsay, and Ramsay belongs to Reek" thing about? Also, in one of the book Reek chapters, he describes Ramsay speaking to him "like a lover" or something like that.

[Dove]

Yeah, the language exists to make you uncomfortable & reinforces a dark undercurrent, but it's just to emphasize the twisted co-dependence going on.

edit: we all know that GRRM doesn't shy away from that kind of thing. It's in Ramsay's M.O. to see torture as sexual and take a sadistic thrill in inflicting pain, but that's as far as that sort of thing goes. All of Theon's strongest memories of his torture involve Ramsay's mindgames - as proud as Theon was, he would most definitely be far more pained by rape. Ramsay is just very, very co-dependent and has "taught" Theon to be the same, and the descriptions/text is meant to be evocative of an abusive relationship

What really intrigues me is what the hell was going on with the original Reek. He obviously had a lot to do with how Ramsay got to be the way he is, like Roose said: who corrupted who? Or did they just feed into each others' psychosis? I kind of assume that maybe Reek abused Ramsay in some way but I'm starting to think it probably wasn't that simple, and I doubt we'll ever get a definite example now.

[BananaSpice]

I don't know. The relationship seemed very sexual in a sick, twisted way. What was the "Reek belongs to Ramsay, and Ramsay belongs to Reek" thing about? Also, in one of the book Reek chapters, he describes Ramsay speaking to him "like a lover" or something like that.

Theon will also only take his clothes off for Ramsay. Ramsay's sadistic games also often seem to have a sexual aspect (raping) ... I feel like it would make sense for there to be a weird, twisted sexual aspect ... but I could just as easily see it not being there. I dunno.

[BananaSpice]

I think the show shows more of Theon's inner conflict, compared to the books.

For instance, you see him at Winterfell being reminded it's "Not your house" (Robb said this to Theon).

Even Tyrion mocks Theon for his "loyalty to [his] captors." I think even ROS made some kind of snarky comment to Theon, as well.

Then, in the show you see that Theon is really being egged on by Dagmar, to "prove" himself.

In the book, it seems like Theon just betrayed Robb out of his own desire for power.

Comparing the two, I'd definitely say TV Theon is more likeable than Book Theon.

Theon is definitely a less noticeable character in AGOT than in the first season ... but they were building to his character in season 2, so that makes sense. On a re-read, though, he does seem super loyal and close to Robb ... but then there's that line where Ned wants Theon extra guarded b/c shit is going down, and he's worried about Balon making a move - what does he want him guarded for? Hmm?

Theon is egged on by Reek/Ramsay in the book in the same way as Dagmer.

Also, the chapter in the book between Balon and Theon is pretty darn close to the show ... and Asha is even worse to him, it seems. And there are all these little details, like everyone is a stranger to him, and he feels ill eating the fish ... so many little things that make him feel depressed about how it isn't his home anymore, and Balon makes him feel like a fool and I believe he feels guilty about being loyal to the Starks, so it's no surprise he changes sides.

[shiola]

Not really, imo. I mean, him forcing Theon to get Jeyne "ready" on their wedding night was rape but aside from that & Theon's possible-castration there wasn't a directly sexual element between them.

It's in Ramsay's M.O. to see torture as sexual and take a sadistic thrill in inflicting pain, but that's as far as that sort of thing goes.

You contradicted yourself... If Ramsay takes sexual pleasure in inflicting pain (which he does, I'm sure) then there is a directly sexual element between them. Ramsay is a sexual sadist. The two go hand-in-hand for him.

[Maester Ruin]

i always thought Ramsay was inspired by The Joker from the batman comics, and his warped sense of humor and his mindgames where he is always five steps ahead of his victims reminds me of Heath Ledgers version in the dark knight movie. the TDK quote "i just did what i do best, i took your little plan and i turned it on itself" very much applies to how Reek manipulated Theon in winterfell. i know the book came out before the movie but still...

[Dove]

You've got a point, I explained myself poorly. I mean a sexual interest in Theon himself specifically - I don't think anyone could argue that Ramsay doesn't take a perverse satisfaction in his "work". That's the only way he can get satisfaction, is through inflicting pain.

For him and women specifically it's all about the hunt and the fight (and he's used to the old Reek being there to take his turn), and that's probably why he needed "help" with Jeyne.

[Spring Snow]

Ahh, double-post. Sorry.

[Spring Snow]

Yeah, the language exists to make you uncomfortable & reinforces a dark undercurrent, but it's just to emphasize the twisted co-dependence going on.

edit: we all know that GRRM doesn't shy away from that kind of thing. It's in Ramsay's M.O. to see torture as sexual and take a sadistic thrill in inflicting pain, but that's as far as that sort of thing goes. All of Theon's strongest memories of his torture involve Ramsay's mindgames - as proud as Theon was, he would most definitely be far more pained by rape. Ramsay is just very, very co-dependent and has "taught" Theon to be the same, and the descriptions/text is meant to be evocative of an abusive relationship

What really intrigues me is what the hell was going on with the original Reek. He obviously had a lot to do with how Ramsay got to be the way he is, like Roose said: who corrupted who? Or did they just feed into each others' psychosis? I kind of assume that maybe Reek abused Ramsay in some way but I'm starting to think it probably wasn't that simple, and I doubt we'll ever get a definite example now.

It's possibly past that point but I wouldn't mind getting more background on all three Boltons, Domeric included, but especially Roose. Apparently there's some popular theories that Roose himself poisoned Domeric? Doubtful, but he's such a peculiar, seemingly contradictory character, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of him.

Maybe since the showrunners seem fond of Theon and of giving him extra material, we'll get some additional information about some of the more vague details.