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[Book Spoilers] EP305 Discussion

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I'm definitely feeling him now. I like how he has been slowly built up from a background lord into a major player. The leeches were cool in the book, but as soon as I read about it I was like "This guy is definitely evil". I think the subtlety is really paying off now. And if the preview for The Climb is anything to go by, we'll get to see the dinner scene too (even down to Brienne's frilly pink dress!)

I hope so much that they are going to add something with leeches. Of course, it makes him more of a cliché James-Bond-villian, but really, they add so much evil badassdom.

They also need to give him better clothes. That grey cloak served him well when he was a side character in the background, but he really needs his pink cloak with the blood drops now. I hope we see all this after/during the Red Wedding...

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I'm definitely feeling him now. I like how he has been slowly built up from a background lord into a major player. The leeches were cool in the book, but as soon as I read about it I was like "This guy is definitely evil". I think the subtlety is really paying off now. And if the preview for The Climb is anything to go by, we'll get to see the dinner scene too (even down to Brienne's frilly pink dress!)

That's definitely a scene I'm looking forward to. I just saw that trailer, and it appears that we'll finally get to see how cruel his son is. Can't wait :devil:

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Madden played it excellently after beheading Karstark, and that entire scene (from killing the Lannisters to executing Karstark) was great. Maisie and Dempsie both rocked in their scene when Arya told Gendry she could be his family.

BATH SCENE! Perfect. I only wish he had said that a Kingsguard doesn't betray the king's secrets, like he did in the book. It is quite evident in the monologue that he didn't want to kill Aerys and that he did it because he felt he wasn't left a choice, but it still wouldn't have hurt to include that phrase. Despite killing Aerys he still remained faithful in one sense for a long time, until he told Brienne, and I didn't like that that was cut.

The fight between the Hound and Beric was awesome. One of the best in the series so far.

Oh and I loved how Cersei was all smiles when Tywin introduced his plan to marry Sansa to Tyrion only to drop the face completely when things turned sour for her as well. They were both wonderfully sullen when Tywin left them, and I just love Charles Dance as Tywin. He is so authoritative!

What else... right, Shireen was sweet and Selyse clearly insane. What was the fuzz with the fetuses?! Nasty. It was nice to see Stannis insecure and at a loss. He felt very human. Her scene with Davos was also cute.

And sorry - but I don't feel it with Jon and Ygritte. I feel his entire storyline is suffering in the series and I don't like the way it has been portrayed in the show. They are doing a wonderful job with the material they have been given, but the material simply isn't enough and I don't appreciate his storyline half as much as I did in the books. At this point in the books he still was a favourite character of mine, but I don't care for him at all in the show. A great comparison is with Jaime's storyline. He is also up there as a favourite character of mine, and his storyline comes across excellently in the show; it shows it can be done, but it isn't with Jon.

I wonder if they will include his (Jaimes) weirwood-dream in the show? I hope they do, but I fear they mightn't. It's an important and defining moment for Jaime and was (for me) key to understanding his arc and motivation. Besides, it would be an excellent excuse to bring back Sean Bean and I'm certain people would appreciate if he did appear, if briefly. Oh, I hope they do, but I fear they won't.

Edited by Peptalk

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:lol: Some of these complaints are ridiculous.

Overall the episode was very good. And Ygritte... damn.

And you're pretty ridiculous too, so it evens out.

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1. I thought the Beric resurrection was pretty true to the books, in that no-one really saw it, and then he suddenly just reappeared.

2. What was wrong with the Selyse thing in the end? She seemed almost exactly like the books, her scene with Stannis was strong. The babies in the jars were certainly not the focus of the scene.

3. Yeah, that Shireen hair colour thing pissed me off. At least she was well written and portrayed

4. That Loras was a nauseatingly grating adolescent caricature. Loras in the show seems like a real person.

1. I prefered the book version because when he dies everybody is like OOHHH! and then Thoros takes him to like somewhere else in the cave where nobody can see, like if he was going to put the body aside to be buried later or something. And then he comes back walking and talking and ALIVE! I think it was more shocking that way. Besides we couldn't exactly see what he did to resurrect Beric, which makes it more mysterious and enigmatic. In the show he sings and prays, that's it?

2. The babies where very creepy. She seem a little bit more maniac than in the books to me. But my main problem is why wouldn't she want Stannis to see his own daughter?

3. Agree.

4. My problem is not that Loras fucked someone else, but that he seemed quite happy, playfuland talked to much, for being with a complete extranger, and Renly dying not so long ago. I think he sould've been more sorrowful and bitter, and with more grieve.

Edited by Darth Zyroth

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Good episode. Patchface is probably the creepiest character in all the books, but you can understand why they need to cut him. The fetuses were a nice touch, designed to compensate for the loss in creepiness.

It's nice that they're developing Roose's character as a bit of a sly sadist, but that might be a bit too subtle for non-book readers.

I'll be disappointed if they don't give Roose his leeches. One of the defining features of the character -- come on!

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The Robb/Cat storyline is still really messy. Cat's once again reduced to a background character so that Strong Female Character Talisa and Robb can have more screentime. But the writing is all over the place too - how has Robb lost half his army with the Karstarks? Why did no one comment on the Freys leaving his army, when in season one it was revealed that they would provide soldiers? Why has no one in King's Landing discussed Robb's wedding yet?

I also think it was cheap to have Robb behead Karstark in one strike. Also unrealistic. The only reason Jon could do it in ADwD was due to his Valyrian steel.

That Loras was a nauseatingly grating adolescent caricature. Loras in the show seems like a real person.

It's actually the opposite way round. Loras is fully fleshed out in the books; in the show he's reduced to being gay.

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To all those who complained about the "butchery of Qhorin Halfhand" last year:

You see, today's episode proved D&D right. They needed to flesh out Ygritte, in order to make her falling for Jon more solid, since, as you may have noticed, there was ABSOLUTELY no time to develop her carachter in this season. So they had to create all those new scenes with her an Jon last year in order to lay the ground for their chemistry. And still their romance feels a bit rushed, even after all those scenes they have been in last season! Imagine if they hadn't dropped Qhorin's and Jon's running chapters. Another ENTIRE storyline, with Jon and Ygritte falling in love, would have needed to be fleshed out this season, and there would have been no time at all, as you can all see. While, given what they've done, they actually did not show Ygritte for 2 or 3 weeks, and still showed a believable and solid love scene.

Yes, Qhorin's chapters would have been amazing on screen. Still, they HAD to be dropped, for the sake of carachter development of more important carachters.

I salute you, D&D.

Sorry I have to totally disagree with you. ALl of that flirtation was done when Y was J's captive and she was working him to escape. That was manipulation, not setting up a relationship and nothing since has shown any romantic spark between the two. If they replaced that horrible Pos escapade they certainly could have worked a scene or two in THIS SEASON establishing some chemistry between the 2. I felt the sex essentially came out of nowhere on the show.

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I'm so happy!!! I hope every episode will be like this one, it didn't feel rushed, it had a great flow, and the writing was perfect. Cogman chose the correct scenes and lines of the books to keep. (well, except for the Loras part). I LOVED the bath scene, it was impeccable, all the Arya scenes were amazing, two areas that had many of us worried (Stannis and Robb) are actually starting to make sense.... I look forward for what's next

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It's actually the opposite way round. Loras is fully fleshed out in the books; in the show he's reduced to being gay.

Loras, Selyse... Is there any minor character that you think isn't fleshed out in the books?

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It's actually the opposite way round. Loras is fully fleshed out in the books; in the show he's reduced to being gay.

I haven't yet seen Series 3, but in series 1 and 2 we got to see Loras as being quite a shrewd politician, which doesn't come through in the books. Essentially, he takes the roles of Ser Garlan and Willas as well as his own.

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Selyse and her kids, that was weird. If I were Stannis Id keep her locked up too.

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Sorry I have to totally disagree with you. ALl of that flirtation was done when Y was J's captive and she was working him to escape. That was manipulation, not setting up a relationship and nothing since has shown any romantic spark between the two. If they replaced that horrible Pos escapade they certainly could have worked a scene or two in THIS SEASON establishing some chemistry between the 2. I felt the sex essentially came out of nowhere on the show.

Agree. Also, I think Ygritte would've been more atratted to Jon IF he would've spared her life letting her go.

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I loved this episode not a huge fan of davos but him n shireen scene was my favourite so sweet. Does that mean they'll combine her with Edric? jaime n Brienne the whole scene was wonderfully done. If i had to pick one tiny thing that annoyed me it would have to be jon n ygritte, I know it's not their fault cause they r trying to squeeze an entire books' worth of story into few minutes here n there. It's like they met last season and this season is their end n all the middle is missing.

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Sorry I have to totally disagree with you. ALl of that flirtation was done when Y was J's captive and she was working him to escape. That was manipulation, not setting up a relationship and nothing since has shown any romantic spark between the two. If they replaced that horrible Pos escapade they certainly could have worked a scene or two in THIS SEASON establishing some chemistry between the 2. I felt the sex essentially came out of nowhere on the show.

I agree.

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I loved this episode not a huge fan of davos but him n shireen scene was my favourite so sweet. Does that mean they'll combine her with Edric?

I think she is going to be combined with Patchface, and Gendry is going to play Edric's part.

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I also thought this was a good episode.

The Stannis household dynamics were perhaps the most pleasant surprise. While Selyse with her jars was too much for my taste, the discussion she had with Stannis was delightfully awkward. And Shireen was a darling! I liked how she interacted with both her father and Davos.

The scene with Arya and Gendry was heartfelt as well. Really enjoyed the discussion between Jorah and Barristan, too. I don't remember well how Jorah-Barristan relationship was handled in the books, but it seems like more interesting here (perhaps because of the actors, they're both stellar and charismatic). I like the mix between camaraderie and suspiciousness they're expressing.

And on a more shallow note, the nakedness (and there was quite a lot of it) felt finally like an integral and natural part of the story. Who would've guessed?

I actually liked the scene because it was nice to see Tyrion tongue-tied for a change. I mean, even he has to experience that sometimes and is there anyone better to outwit him than QoT? Although I'll admit that since QoT has done the same thing over and over again, it's getting a bit repetitive.

On the other hand, Tyrion's comment to Tywin about getting the Tyrells to pay half of the wedding expenses made me think that perhaps Tyrion had in fact played Olenna... or maybe he was just trying to impress his father, I don't know.

And I believe she does the same with Tywin next episode, breaking his quill and all.

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I haven't yet seen Series 3, but in series 1 and 2 we got to see Loras as being quite a shrewd politician, which doesn't come through in the books. Essentially, he takes the roles of Ser Garlan and Willas as well as his own.

In season 1 he's shown as manipulative rather than "shrewd", and let me assure you in season 3 he's not shrewd at all.

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The scene in the book differs slightly, but the gist is Ned Stark was the first rebel Lord to find Jaime, and he instantaneously, no questions asked, judged him a traitor . When Jaime saw the reaction from Ned - condemnation, derision in his eyes - his Lannister pride took over, and from that instant on, refused to humble himself by explaining his actions to Ned, or anyone else for that matter. He saw Ned's condemnation as hypocritical and morally superior, and his own actions righteous, and wouldn't humble himself by asking for anyone's, least of all the ever so honorable rebel lords.

Also, and most crucially, once Tywin sacked the city and had Elia and her children murdered, no one would believe that Jaime, son of turncloak opportunist child murdering Tywin, had killed Aerys for any reason other than furthering his father's aims. This is how Ned came to the conclusion that Jaime is nothing more than a dishonorable Kingslayer.

That's the one thing that annoyed me about characters' treatment of Jaime. He broke his oath yes, but so did the Starks, Baratheons, Tullys, and Arryns who all swore an oath of fealty to the crown. Why was it okay for them to break their oaths, but not Jaime? Very hypocritical.

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