[BOOK SPOILERS] Episode 6 Preview

[Sun]

One thing seems clear, come S5 we will be seeing major deviations from the books.

[Newstar]

One thing seems clear, come S5 we will be seeing major deviations from the books.

You say that like it's a bad thing...For real, though, if the writers take a wrecking ball to AFFC/ADWD, not only will I not blame them, I'll cheer them on. Maybe they can accomplish what GRRM's editor couldn't.

As for Hound/Arya, I suspect the bulk of the Hound/Arya stuff--absent everything Red Wedding-related, which will go into Season 3--will be moved to Season 4. We're up to Episode 6 and the Hound hasn't even nabbed Arya yet. I think he'll grab her in this episode, but there's a good chance he won't before Episode 7, and that leaves us one episode before the Red Wedding, one of which (3x08) I suspect will be mostly taken up with King's Landing and Dany stuff.

Also, Arya is going to need something to do in Season 4, as I doubt the writers will ship her off to Braavos before the last half of Season 4, so putting some meat on Hound/Arya and moving the bulk of it to Season 4 works.

[Qhorin Fivehands]

In the book, as I remember it (although again I knew the RW was coming, but not its exact details, so I can't remember what I knew about Roose's role), it seemed like he was hedging his bets, keeping his options open - currying favor with Tywin, just in case. So you get the sense that he's not a diehard Stark loyalist but you don't see the degree of his treachery coming, as I remember it. I think they can play it that way in the show as well. Not a traitor, but he's not going to go down with the ship either. It makes sense to me. It's a far cry from making a hostage trade a bit against Robb's wishes to get on Tywin's good side to what he actually does at the RW.

Perfect explanation.

[Qhorin Fivehands]

You say that like it's a bad thing...For real, though, if the writers take a wrecking ball to AFFC/ADWD, not only will I not blame them, I'll cheer them on. Maybe they can accomplish what GRRM's editor couldn't.

As for Hound/Arya, I suspect the bulk of the Hound/Arya stuff--absent everything Red Wedding-related, which will go into Season 3--will be moved to Season 4. We're up to Episode 6 and the Hound hasn't even nabbed Arya yet. I think he'll grab her in this episode, but there's a good chance he won't before Episode 7, and that leaves us one episode before the Red Wedding, one of which (3x08) I suspect will be mostly taken up with King's Landing and Dany stuff.

Also, Arya is going to need something to do in Season 4, as I doubt the writers will ship her off to Braavos before the last half of Season 4, so putting some meat on Hound/Arya and moving the bulk of it to Season 4 works.

Why the hating on books 4 & 5?

[Dove]

I don't think it's hate, necessarily - there's a lot of good stuff in books 4 and 5, there's just a lot more filler as well.

A lot of new characters and plots are introduced, things don't progress quite as quickly, and it's also the point where a lot of storylines become even more separated and splintered. (i.e. Brienne and Jaime splitting into their own journeys, Tyrion departing King's Landing, Sansa leaving for her own location, etc.)

With people already complaining about bloat, too many characters in different places, and scenes skipping too quickly, it's pretty understandable to see the need for some editing and alteration in the future.

[Sun]

You say that like it's a bad thing...

Not at all, I'm all for it. I'm simply saying that it will be very hard to predict story lines from now on. We'll see deviations begin in S4, and expand going forward in order to deal with AFFC/ADWD, not only in terms of keeping the plot moving, but in order to give characters given short shrift in the novels something to do.

The show writers can take many routes depending on what they know of future events, and how they feel they might be served. Given the amount of variables involved, I just don't think we're well positioned to predict breakdowns of future plot arcs with any measure of accuracy. We can't even be sure how S4 will go, not until we get some casting info, at the very least.

Why the hating on books 4 & 5?

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case it's because I think them pretty shitty books.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Arya won't be traveling to Braavos before the finale of the fourth season. Bet on it. Ultimately, I don't think the Hound has a major part to play going forward in this story, so I can definitely see the relationship between the two of them being given both more time and more circumstance (perhaps they'll transpose some of the skipped material from Arya's early chapters of ACoK). The dam will break when Arya kills Polliver at the inn, in her first instance of willfully murdering someone (which will be very cathartic for both the audience and the character, given everything she has had to endure). When Arya chooses to leave the Hound to die, it will probably be the last time we see his character, so I'd expect them to play that whole scenario up. It wouldn't make sense for the production team to dedicate any of their resources to designing or building Braavos, and it works as such a perfect cap to her story line up to that point to have her decide to leave Westeros and train with the Faceless Men (though the non-reader audience wouldn't be entirely sure about where she's going or what she's going to do when she gets there). If they just plow through with her story line, where does her arc end in season four? And where does it begin in season five? And end?

This. Arya getting on the ship to leave for Braavos is, I think, by far the best way to end her arc for a season, which will obviously be season four. In fact, the arc endings for ASOS are the best way for almost every character to end season four.

--Tyrion killing Tywin

--Jon becoming Lord Commander

--Dany conquering Mereen and deciding to stay

--Arya to Braavos

--Sansa seeing LIttlefinger kill Lysa

These are all season, not episode, endign moments, which is why I expect season 4 to pretty much end where ASOS does, and not include too many elements from AFFC/ADWD. Having Tyrion killing Tywin one episode and meet Illyrio the next would feel odd; like having Dany birth her dragons in episode eight of season one and then be stuck in the red waste the next. Just doesn't work out well.

[Ignacia]

These are all season, not episode, endign moments, which is why I expect season 4 to pretty much end where ASOS does, and not include too many elements from AFFC/ADWD. Having Tyrion killing Tywin one episode and meet Illyrio the next would feel odd; like having Dany birth her dragons in episode eight of season one and then be stuck in the red waste the next. Just doesn't work out well.

I always thought we would start getting AFFC/ADWD material in S4, but keeping most characters ASOS endings. I think it's more like complete storylines will be moved. Bran, Brienne, the ironborn, maybe Dorne. I'm guessing some Theon too.

Sansa, Jon, KL should keep their ASOS endings. Arya, I can't decide if I would prefer if she leaves for Braavos at the end of S3 or S4, but I can't imagine that happening in the middle of a season. Dany I have no idea.

I think some AFFC conflicts could be introduced earlier too. For instance, we already have the Cersei/Margaery rivalry, and that will probably continue on next season, so once we get to S5 there is lot less build up to do. S4 could focus on Cerse/Jaime starting to break up (which is early AFFC, I think), and I think we should be introduced to most of the Vale characters and dynamics on S4 (like the lords of the Vale not liking LF), so we are already familiar with all that once we get to S5.

[Newstar]

Arya, I can't decide if I would prefer if she leaves for Braavos at the end of S3 or S4, but I can't imagine that happening in the middle of a season.

Arya is tricky. End of Season 3 seems way too early--unless they just speed through the Hound/Arya stuff--but the end of Season 4 seems too late, and I agree that plunking her departure for Braavos in the middle of Season 4 just wouldn't work. Maybe she'll have a "filler" arc for Season 4, expanding on the Hound/Arya stuff from the books.

Sansa, Jon, KL should keep their ASOS endings.

Agreed. Good endings to round out the season on, all.

[Ignacia]

Arya is tricky. End of Season 3 seems way too early.

Based on how the pace of her storyline this season has been so far, I don't think it's going to happen anymore. But I think it could have been done, if the Hound had captured her early, and maybe with some scene to make us remember Polliver/Needle (I don't know, maybe Arya hearing that he and other men were terrorising some peasants). But it would need some build up in earlier episodes.

[Dove]

Inventing Arya and Sandor scenes seems the most likely.

If they have her leave for Braavos before the S4 finale it's going to throw the timing off and put her out of sync with the other stories - maybe I'm over-complicating things but it seems like it would be a nightmare for the writers if they pushed just one or two characters' stories ahead like that, trying to manage the timelines/sequence of events and everything.

[bobbybuilderton]

This. Arya getting on the ship to leave for Braavos is, I think, by far the best way to end her arc for a season, which will obviously be season four. In fact, the arc endings for ASOS are the best way for almost every character to end season four.

--Tyrion killing Tywin

--Jon becoming Lord Commander

--Dany conquering Mereen and deciding to stay

--Arya to Braavos

--Sansa seeing LIttlefinger kill Lysa

These are all season, not episode, endign moments, which is why I expect season 4 to pretty much end where ASOS does, and not include too many elements from AFFC/ADWD. Having Tyrion killing Tywin one episode and meet Illyrio the next would feel odd; like having Dany birth her dragons in episode eight of season one and then be stuck in the red waste the next. Just doesn't work out well.

I agree that LF killing Lysa should be his season ender. Don't forget that that's the scene where we find out just how much of this war has been engineered by him, bringing Varys's "king of the ashes" comment to completion. Now we know he was completely on the nose. Plus it shows how truly cold Petyr is. The audience knows he's a dick for what happened to Ned, but I'd argue that this illustrates it more. Because she clearly was in love with him and he used her and literally tossed her aside when he didn't need her anymore. As for Dany...I don't even know what to say about her. lol

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Why the hating on books 4 & 5?

Books 4 and 5 are that thing that fantasy novelists always get into when they stretch the story beyond 3 books. They're the books that introduce tons of new stuff that you don't immediately care about and the writing starts taking a departure from how the series started, which was pretty big in this series since there's like almost 20 year difference between the books. I waited 5 years for AFFC only to find it focuses on half of the characters and a bunch of new ones, and then another 5 years to find out what the hell is going on with Jon, Stannis, Dany, etc. 10 years to read about the continuation of certain character arcs is pretty brutal.

On re-reads the books are much better. You have no expectations and you can combine them in your mind. You also don't protest to reading PoVs you initially found pointless and can begin to enjoy them. I suppose that's the difference in my mind between George and other novelists - their world building books usually stink but his are actually quite good once you get over that they're essentially good stories with a lot of filler in between.

[Dysun]

I read all five books consecutively and didn't feel as negatively about them as most long-time readers did. Expectations and delays factor into it, as well as the lack of editing these books have alot of fat and repetition that could be cut. They also lack the conclusion for battles that were built up for 1000+ pages. They could have been much better with a few tweaks

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

They also lack the conclusion for battles that were built up for 1000+ pages. They could have been much better with a few tweaks

That's another big thing, and for me I think a major reason why the show will suffer in Seasons 5/6, because there really isn't a lot of action. They're going to introduce characters like Areo Hotah who is boring as shit, Doran who has been plotting for decades with nothing to show for it, also can barely walk. Then we have Quentyn who sees the most action in that book for like 10 seconds, but it's such an extremely stupid plot and Quentyn himself is sort of bland and uninspiring. We get all the random people Brienne meets on her long and pretty boring journey. We have all the annoying one dimensional charaters Dany meets in Mereen with names no one will want to pronounce. Arya's Bravos story is pretty uneventful really. She finally kills one guy by giving him a poisoned coin. Yey.

The books were good as books. They're really going to suffer on television without huge deviations. This is why I agree with the person who originally brought up this point. Just go ahead and gut the filler and make it more exciting to watch. Otherwise I'll probably get bored with it and I'm like the show's #1 fan lol. There's only so much of Doran complaining about his joints and Dany sitting around attempting to rule a place no one gives a shit about that you can watch before flicking the channel.

[Mammothsbane]

That's another big thing, and for me I think a major reason why the show will suffer in Seasons 5/6, because there really isn't a lot of action. They're going to introduce characters like Areo Hotah who is boring as shit, Doran who has been plotting for decades with nothing to show for it, also can barely walk. Then we have Quentyn who sees the most action in that book for like 10 seconds, but it's such an extremely stupid plot and Quentyn himself is sort of bland and uninspiring. We get all the random people Brienne meets on her long and pretty boring journey. We have all the annoying one dimensional charaters Dany meets in Mereen with names no one will want to pronounce. Arya's Bravos story is pretty uneventful really. She finally kills one guy by giving him a poisoned coin. Yey.

The books were good as books. They're really going to suffer on television without huge deviations. This is why I agree with the person who originally brought up this point. Just go ahead and gut the filler and make it more exciting to watch. Otherwise I'll probably get bored with it and I'm like the show's #1 fan lol. There's only so much of Doran complaining about his joints and Dany sitting around attempting to rule a place no one gives a shit about that you can watch before flicking the channel.

Well, if they keep the Daario/Dany love affair, some people will probably watch every minute of every episode to get a glimpse of Emilia...

But I do agree, most of Feast and Dance is re-building plots and amping up for events to happen in Winds and Dream. I would welcome some changes that don't require me to watch Brienne wander around the Riverlands aimlessly with stuttering Podrick for a season

[Cravensbayne]

I can't wait to see Pod and Brienne. Maybe he will seduce her?

The season 3 finale is gonna be awesome, but season 4 is gonna blow people's minds. The LF push and Jon being LC will be amazing on tv. I just have to wait a year...

[King Tommen]

Remember too that timeline-wise, the show will almost assuredly take the chronological route and combine the AFFC/ADwD material so that we're not concentrating so much on some plotlines that appeared to drag over the course of an entire book.

Dany's stuff in Meereen is a little tiresome but they will get to show other characters from Westeros finally converging on her which brings her closer to the main plot. You've also got the great segment with the attempted poisoning and her finally riding Drogon which should make for thrilling TV. There's also Quentyn getting fried which will be a crazy setpiece. And it's all leading to the grandaddy of all the battles which would exceed the budget for both Blackwater and the Battle at the Wall if done properly. If you make it clear that this is what all of these converging plotlines are moving towards, the audience will stay with you.

The Theon/Asha/Stannis/Ramsay stuff in the North is very compelling and will be dealt with immediately as opposed to delayed until after AFFC

You'll get Jon's stint as LC which is pretty good stuff too, interacting with Stannis/Mel/Mance and his slowly rebellious NW men.

The Cersei paranoia and political fight with Margaery is going to be damn good considering how well they've set that stuff up already.

Arya's story isn't amazing but there's a great shocker in her going blind and assassin in training material can be promising

Bran's going to be troublesome if only because there's so little material to work with so they may just end up making him being the gateway to the Westeros history that fills in a lot of the world building gaps the show has.

Brienne's journey can be shortened very easily (and I'm sure they'll have no problem snipping out large portions of her chapters). They could even integrate Lady Stoneheart earlier than they did in order to juice up the story and give Michele Fairley more to do.

Jaime will probably be interesting no matter what they give him to do so I wouldn't be too worried about that.

Sansa and LF will probably get the short end of the stick.

Of the Greyjoy's and Martell's, I think they'll emphasize the Greyjoy's more because there's more action to deal with a definitive mission involved with the rivalry between Euron and Victarion (getting to Dany and her dragons). Say what you want about Victarion the character but his journey IMO is pretty interesting. The Martell's I think will be downplayed IMO with Arianne being the main character being introduced (my guess is that she comes to King's Landing with Oberyn next season so we can meet her in that setting). Because they aren't slaves to the POV structure, Areo Hotah isn't necessary and Arianne can interact with Doran when necessary but I doubt he'll be a major character with more than a handful of expository scenes. I bet they dump the entire "kidnapp Myrcella" plotline.

The challenge will be to make Tyrion's journey and character interesting after building him up as the nominal lead on the show for so long. His self-pitying and humorless adventure could wear thin so hopefully they find a way to make him as interesting as he was before. To me, that's the key to engaging the audience through this period. Once he gets to Dany, I assume he'll get his mojo back and that story will ramp up again.

[Nezzer]

I can't wait to see Pod and Brienne. Maybe he will seduce her?

The season 3 finale is gonna be awesome, but season 4 is gonna blow people's minds. The LF push and Jon being LC will be amazing on tv. I just have to wait a year...

Yeah, I get the feeling that season 4 will be even better than season 3. Battle at the Wall, Stannis's arrival, Jon's election, the Kingsmoot, Tyrion's trial, the PW, Lysa's flight... So many epic events.

[Dragonstoned]

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case it's because I think them pretty shitty books.

More a case of his editor being shitty, personally. There's lots of good stuff there it's just so padded out.