Lannister isn't evil except for Tywin

[giant snake]

Given that Tywin was justified in making examples when he became the lord, and that his own father was weak and nearly ruined his house, I think it's obvious that his ruthlessness eventually caught up with him. He's kind of like the Henry V of the story - victorious all of the time, and more famous for his military genius, but hated by far too many for his dynasty to continue. All of these actions were his and they were either villainous or will have long term effects that work against the Lannister cause:

The Targaryan loyalists got the moral high ground for his actions during the sack of King's Landing.

Nobody wants the Boltons ruling the North permanently.

Letting Gregor Clegane and Armory Lorch act as routiers. It surprised me that it never came back to hit them that Lorch actually killed one of the Night's Watch and interfered with their mission, but it still might.

Screwing over his own son for no reason. Obviously it came back and hit him hardest.

The one thing you can't blame him for is the murder of King Robert, but the way he raised his daughter probably was the root cause of that.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Given that Tywin was justified in making examples when he became the lord

No.

Sure, it must have been terrible for Tywin that his Daddy had banged someone below his station, but where in hell is it given that Tywin's "reaction" was justified?

[Ser Greg of House House]

Cersei is pretty much evil. Jaime is debatable.

[Maegor the Cuddly]

Cersei is crazy, not sure about evil, let me get back to you on that.

Jaime was kind of an ass for a long time, even after his heel-face turn he is still kind of one, just less so.

Tyrion, for as good of a character as he is, he's a selfish prick, after all, he didn't even think about the possibility that his accusations made life worse (or nonexistent) for many other dwarfs until he heard about Groat.

[Manderlay]

Cersei is evil, that is all

Jamie - darker shade of grey, but might turn a lighter a shade of grey

Tyrion - is very much his father's son, has the potential to be like Tywin

[Chaircat Meow]

Maybe I'm just slow, but I've never understood the confidence with which the notion that Tywin's method of playing politics came back to bite him in the ass is maintained.

Throughout his political career he went from strength to strength: Dorne only looks like a threat because of Dany's dragons. And everyone makes enemies, as Ned Stark's son can attest; the north lost the war, in part, because The Ned annoyed Balon. Sure, Tywin was ruined in the end via his 'harsh lesson to Tyrion,' so that's fair enough to say I suppose.

Ultimately though it seems like people point out the enemies he made, and forget he usually wiped these guys out, or else gained such powerful allies in the process that he realistically should not have had to fear them.

I'm not sure I understand the Henry V analogy either: the Lancastrian line didn't come to a sticky end because of Henry's misdeeds at all, afaik but because his son was weak and periodically insane (and because that hole in Burgundy's skull got better ...).

[mrunderhill]

Cersei is worst than Tywin in pretty much every way. As the post above Henry V succeeded in all his goals, but sadly died too young to reap the benefits and his son was weak.

[Guest]

Can't agree with you, because Cersei is a monster. A selfish, egotistical, manipulative monster. Not a sociopath, because she loves her children, but that does not redeem the evil she has done.

Jaime, he's more of a grey character. Tyrion was good but is backsliding and becoming more evil like his father. Tommen & Myrcella were good, but children so you can't really see what they will become.

And Joffery? Joffery was the worst of them all.

[mrunderhill]

Can't agree with you, because Cersei is a monster. A selfish, egotistical, manipulative monster. Not a sociopath, because she loves her children, but that does not redeem the evil she has done.

Jaime, he's more of a grey character. Tyrion was good but is backsliding and becoming more evil like his father. Tommen & Myrcella were good, but children so you can't really see what they will become.

And Joffery? Joffery was the worst of them all.

Really Joffrey was worse than Cersei or Tywin? Did Joffrey ever order babies to be killed? The worst crime Joffrey did was order for Bran to be killed and he that in a deluded sense of mercy. Did Joffrey order a 14 year old girl to be raped? Did Joffrey tortute his baby brother?

[Jabronius Maximus]

Aside from Ramsay, Cersei is about as close as you can get to evil in these books. Add to that she's just completely delusional, and you've got a recipe for disaster. Cersei has had titanium plot armour throughout the series though, so I wouldn't be surprised if lives through the entire series.

[ckongo]

Cersei is the only Lannister who I'd consider evil, barring Joffrey.

Tywin is kind of the reversal of Ned when it comes to politics: practicality over honor. He does what is easiest to win, but I wouldn't consider him evil like characters such as Ramsay or Joffrey who get pleasure out of evil acts.

Tywin's father's weakness has made it so he will do atrocious things for the honor of his house, but not for personal pride.

Jaime's character development has been sloppy IMO. Such a radical shift in behavior (lost hand or no) doesn't seem real to me. I don't think he's ever been evil though; an ass before and now a valiant kingsguard it seems.

[Fat Mac]

I mainly think Tywin was a realist without morals. He did show some disgust concerning Amory Lorch's killing of Princess Rhaenys (not like that justifies it, I'm just saying). Everything he did was to better his house, whether it worked or not.

Cersei is a crazy power-grabber. Like Tywin, she lacks morals, and is a narcissist to the utmost levels.

Tyrion and Jaime aren't evil, just heavily flawed.

[oakenhelm]

Tywin reminds me a of a ruthless CEO.

[giant snake]

I mainly think Tywin was a realist without morals. He did show some disgust concerning Amory Lorch's killing of Princess Rhaenys (not like that justifies it, I'm just saying). Everything he did was to better his house, whether it worked or not.

Cersei is a crazy power-grabber. Like Tywin, she lacks morals, and is a narcissist to the utmost levels.

Tyrion and Jaime aren't evil, just heavily flawed.

This and immediately above are how I see Tywin. Cersei, bad as she is, is the only one I would blame madness on, but she is also raised to believe that others should respect her. That is exactly where Joffrey's problem starts: it isn't Cersei alone as much as indifferent parenting from Robert. He's basically as spoiled as you could possibly get. I can think of a dozen really bad kids with shitty parents who would have been no different from him if they were to somehow have power.

It isn't whether Tywin is evil or simply ruthless. I think his hatred for Tyrion is irrational and the way he always treats him is something that he never had to do. His coldness and willingness to do anything for power - and its apparent success - was what Cersei saw and attempted to emulate, not his gift for actual planning. So that is another way Tywin's own ruthlessness backfired.

On Henry V - in personality he was more like Stannis; burning not only heretics but burning and boiling (as heretics) anyone who denied that he was not the rightful King of France...even as he was purposefully refusing to speak the language. A truly grotesque character but, it can be argued, that he was using fear to his advantage and thus win the war sooner. The hatred for Henry was so great that is was actually common for the French Knights to swear to give their lives just to kill him, which reflects in the story with the characters from Dorne. His succession was opposed because of the father's legacy. The parallel with Dorne going as far as to ally with their traditional enemy is like Gascony leaving the English fold in the 100 years war.

[The Wolves]

I think Cersei and Jamie are also evil, but Tywin is the worst.

[giant snake]

How do you still think Jaime is evil? I thought it was a convincing change of heart for him. When I was reading the first book, I thought he was just a villain and a bit of an ass who was way past his prime. He is way less sympathetic in that book than in the show's season 1, that's for sure. By book 4, he is my favorite character and one of the few true heroes in the story.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

There is also Cersei, Tyrion, Joff and Jaime. So not only Tywin.

I think that Joanna wasn't good either.

[Prince of the North]

Yes, Cercei is definitely "messed up". I also don't get the idea that some have that she's not all bad because she "loves her children". The impression I get is that her love for her children is really just another facet of her extreme narcissism. After all, they are products of her physical union with who she considers to be a male version of her self (and, thus, the only one worthy of such). And, one wonders just how much she values them beyond being able to rule through them?

[Minstral]

No.

Sure, it must have been terrible for Tywin that his Daddy had banged someone below his station, but where in hell is it given that Tywin's "reaction" was justified?

The culture of the time would think he was "justified" because of the attitudes that existed in medieval settings. There are examples of similar walks in history (though I am unsure if they were done naked).

[Naathi Prince]

Tywin isn't evil, as many have said. He's just a man of his times. Cersei, however is evil, and Tyrion displays evil tendencies at times.