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Exar0s

[Book Spoilers] Why do the Starks have it so bad? [Future events and speculations]

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In this episode we will see the negotiations for the RW. Soon Robb and Cat will join Ned in death. Our beloved Starks are being taken out. Theon sacked Winterfel which has since been burned to the ground, Sansa is about to be married to the Imp, Arya is about to be kidnapped by the hound and forced to see her family slaughtered, Bran and Rickon are presumed dead and Jon Snow is presumed a traitor to the Knights Watch.

I know the Stark's are supposedly the "good guys" but man do they have it rough. Why does he force us to love the Stark's only to make us read/watch them suffer since Bran was thrown from the wall in the first season. I know the Lannisters will get theirs in time but reading and watching the Stark's stories makes me sad and angry. Why do the good guy's always suffer the most?

I'm just curious if anyone thinks we will ever see the Stark's truly get revenge for the crimes done against them? Will we ever see Arya, Sansa, Bran, Rickon and Jon together again? Will the Stark's have a happy ending once this story is complete? Will Benjen ever show back up? Will Jon end up being the saving grace for the family, even after turning down the rights to have the Stark name? I'm so lost seeing how there can be a happy ending for the Stark's.

I know this is way to early for this conversation but the show won't catch up for another 4-5 years . . . .

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As they say, it's always darkest before the dawn. ;)

It's important for the protagonists in any story to go through trials and tribulations; because of Westeros being a grim and fairly realistic sort of world, the Starks just go through more than most. It's going to make it much more satisfying if they do manage to ever come out on top. I suspect that few of the remaining Starks will ultimately get a happy ending or anything more than bittersweet, and if they do it'll definitely be well earned.

A Stark family reunion where all the surviving Starks are together in one place seems impossible, but encounters between a couple of them at a time sounds more likely.

Benjen is another puzzler. I didn't read the books until somewhat recently but I'm aware there's been speculation on him for many, many years; I'm probably wrong, but I won't be too surprised if he isn't important in the end. He could have simply been a means to get the Night's Watch out on their ranging in ACoK.

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I read a line somewhere that from an author's perspective, the Starks aren't there for us to root for, the Starks are there for us to mourn. No one's emotions are tugged when a bad guy, or some random nobody guy, gets killed, even if the death is unfair and undeserved. But do something awful and unfair to our good guy, ah, that hurts. That's great story-telling.

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The Starks have it rough now. That scene where Wylla Manderly and her monologue about being Stark men was so emotional because of all the bad shit that happened to them. In the long run, while I don't think there's going to be some happy ending, I think the Starks will prevail in some sense.

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The Starks are meant to be tragic figures...tragic not only because most of us sympathize with them and like/love them on some level, but tragic because their deaths symbolize a victory for deception and treachery over honesty and honor. Also, I think some of this is Martin's way of reminding the reader/viewer that this is NOT The Knights of the Round Table or The Lord of the Rings, in which you just know that somehow the heroes will triumph in the end and the wicked will be vanquished.

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When you consider net losses, the Starks aren't as far down as other houses. Robb, Ned, and UnCat are the only real losses. We have Sansa in a strong position to retain power, Bran doing his thing, Rickon on his way back (presumably) and Arya's eventual return to Westeros. If you compare them to, say, the Lannisters, Tywin, Kevan, and Joffrey are all dead, Jaime is a Kingsguard (no inheritance), Cersei is batshit insane and a trainwreck, and Tyrion is in exile. The main branch of House Lannister is in the shit, as are the Baratheons, who have lost just about everyone and have no heirs, except Shireen.

Starks have probably the best chance of actually existing when the novels end.

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Robb, Ned, and UnCat are the only real losses.

A man could suggest that Robb's death was foretold in the "dutiful" coupling of Ned and Catelyn, their wedding night lacking in passion as it was, his very conception the fruit of said consummation.

A man could suggest this....

A man could also suggest that the remaining children, Jon Snow included, are the result of love/passion, and not dutiful actions, which is why they continue to live.

A man encourages one to wrap one's mind around that.

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A man could suggest that Robb's death was foretold in the "dutiful" coupling of Ned and Catelyn, their wedding night lacking in passion as it was, his very conception the fruit of said consummation.

A man could suggest this....

A man could also suggest that the remaining children, Jon Snow included, are the result of love/passion, and not dutiful actions, which is why they continue to live.

A man encourages one to wrap one's mind around that.

A man laughs at this concept of an idea. A man does not laugh mockingly, mind you, but respects another man's ideas, whether they are wrong or right.

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A man laughs at this concept of an idea. A man does not laugh mockingly, mind you, but respects another man's ideas, whether they are wrong or right.

Or, you know, bizarre? One's mind... wraps.

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The Starks don't have it much worse than any other Great House. There are still four Stark kids about and probably half a Stark, and who knows where Benjen is. Winterfell fell, but will most likely end up in Stark hands once more before all is said and done.

Of the Great Houses, only the Tyrells haven't lost any key members, and that will change soon. The main Arryn branch is gone and the Vale is controlled by the man who had their last lord poisoned; the Tullys have lost Riverrun, Hoster, Cat, and Lysa; the Lannisters have lost multiple members, with more to come; the Baratheons are now down to Stannis, Shireen, and a bunch of bastard and Storm's End is about to fall; the Greyjoys lost Balon, Theon is broken, and I expect most of those left to die; the Martells lost Oberyn and Quentyn, with more death likely to come.

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We started the story with the Starks in the middle, so losing them was obviously hardest, but I agree that an objective view on the other houses shows that almost no family was spared. The reason it seems worse for the Starks is our shifted sympathy. (and even that changes as the story continues, as we experience right now with the show and people starting to understand Jaime's actions and feel bad for Theon)

This telling of the story is amazing as we as readers get thrown back and forth, never quite knowing what to feel about certain things because we know there's a huge back story to almost everything that happens and at this point I hope that we won't get too much of a happy-ending feeling in the forthcoming books, just because it makes the story much more vivid and realistic in a way.

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Stark/York

Lannister/Lancaster

In The Wars of The Roses, Lancaster won.

Hopefully GRRM has a different outcome in mind for his books.

Just remembered there were no dragons in medieval England. ;)

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Stark/York

Lannister/Lancaster

In The Wars of The Roses, Lancaster won.

Hopefully GRRM has a different outcome in mind for his books.

That would the worst thing that could happen, the fact the lannisters will get their comeuppance is what keeps me reading the books.

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Of the Great Houses, only the Tyrells haven't lost any key members, and that will change soon. The main Arryn branch is gone and the Vale is controlled by the man who had their last lord poisoned; the Tullys have lost Riverrun, Hoster, Cat, and Lysa; the Lannisters have lost multiple members, with more to come; the Baratheons are now down to Stannis, Shireen, and a bunch of bastard and Storm's End is about to fall; the Greyjoys lost Balon, Theon is broken, and I expect most of those left to die; the Martells lost Oberyn and Quentyn, with more death likely to come.

This is all true, with a Stark-centric view of the books it's easy to forget that all the major houses have suffered major loses with one possible exception - even in the Tyrell's case, they've come close to losing Loras. Or not? Apparently there's a theory about him not being as grievously injured as it seems? I haven't got the chance to read it so I'm not sure if it's crackpot or not, though.

The Lannisters have been getting their comeuppance this whole time, in a way. Tywin is dead, Cersei is disgraced, Tyrion is exiled, and Jaime is maimed but trying to become a better person than he was. It's the Boltons and the Freys and Littlefinger that've gained the most lately, but even then it's come at a big cost. The Freys are reviled by enemies and allies alike, the Boltons are in a super precarious position and are only tolerated because of fear and "Arya", who's just escaped, and Littlefinger is Littlefinger.

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That would the worst thing that could happen, the fact the lannisters will get their comeuppance is what keeps me reading the books.

If that is all that keeps you reading the books maybe you should...

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A man could suggest that Robb's death was foretold in the "dutiful" coupling of Ned and Catelyn, their wedding night lacking in passion as it was, his very conception the fruit of said consummation.

A man could suggest this....

A man could also suggest that the remaining children, Jon Snow included, are the result of love/passion, and not dutiful actions, which is why they continue to live.

A man encourages one to wrap one's mind around that.

Hmm. Very interesting way of looking at it.

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