Bakker XIV: Star Trek into Darkness that Comes Before

[Happy Ent]

DATS, welcome to these threads.

[sologdin]

Cnaiur isn't pronounced with the slavic ts. It's stated how to pronounce it; the c is silent and it's essentially NayUr.

yeah, doesn't that inference arise out of a nickname, like for xinemus?

[Guest]

Bakker himself has pronounced Achamian differently in an interview than it is described in the appendix/glossary of TDTCB.

He said it like "ah-kah-me-on" in the interview, but the book has that 2nd syllable as "kay."

[jurble]

X-SAMPA: /kiSAu'Rim/.

It's 2013, why not just use regular IPA?

[Happy Ent]

It's 2013, why not just use regular IPA?

I’d love to, the board no longer supports it since a few updates ago.

[jurble]

Updates to this board ruin everything! I miss being able to title spoilers.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

solo - Yes. The stated diminutive of Cnaiur is Nayu.

The K versus C thing is explained at the beginning of the TTT appendix as basically just something being written in Sheyic versus Kunuiric or whatever. So for example, Nau-Cayuti is spelled with a "C" because it's the Sheyic form but Kayûtas is with a "K" because his given name is in Kunuiric. It doesn't always make sense (this and Celmomas/Kelmomas being good examples) since Bakker says the names are as Akka would know them, and he speaks both Sheyic and Kuiniric.

In any case given that I always pronounced it Kish-ah-rim, since I presumed the C to be a hard Sheyic C.

[Guest]

solo - Yes. The stated diminutive of Cnaiur is Nayu.

The K versus C thing is explained at the beginning of the TTT appendix as basically just something being written in Sheyic versus Kunuiric or whatever. So for example, Nau-Cayuti is spelled with a "C" because it's the Sheyic form but Kayûtas is with a "K" because his given name is in Kunuiric. It doesn't always make sense (this and Celmomas/Kelmomas being good examples) since Bakker says the names are as Akka would know them, and he speaks both Sheyic and Kuiniric.

In any case given that I always pronounced it Kish-ah-rim, since I presumed the C to be a hard Sheyic C.

At the end of TTT, Moe Sr. says "Nayu..." and we're privy to it being printed as such.

Wrath - I'm now convinced that it is a hard C as you say and can't believe I've been going the other way for so long, but I guess I'm not the only one. But now I think it's Kish-or-im.

But does your post mean that the "Celmomian prophecy" is pronounced with a hard C?

Cause I'd been going soft c on that one too, perhaps erroneously.

Great call on how it's supposed to be Akka's perspective.

[Kalbear]

yeah, doesn't that inference arise out of a nickname, like for xinemus?

Bakker's already said how to pronounce Cnaiur. It was either on three seas or in some appendix. So it's not really an inference as much as a guy telling us.

[Shryke]

The pronunciation of the main characters names is shown in the appendix of at least TDTCB.

[Guest]

The pronunciation of the main characters names is shown in the appendix of at least TDTCB.

Yep. And Cnaiur is "Nay-yur" whereas Akka is "Ah-kay-me-on." But RSB himself pronounced Akka's name a bit different in an interview (but was consistent on the others).

[karaddin]

Well I've apparently been reading the position of the I wrong all this time (Cisharium) so on top of using a soft C I've been extra wrong!

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Yes, Celmomian prophecy/Celmomas are hard C's. We can know this because Celmomas is Kelmomas's namesake. I think Seswatha uses a diminutive for Celmomas at some point in WLW or TJE but I can't recall it.

[Francis Buck]

Yep. And Cnaiur is "Nay-yur" whereas Akka is "Ah-kay-me-on." But RSB himself pronounced Akka's name a bit different in an interview (but was consistent on the others).

Yeah, I remember that interview (in fact it's the only interview I've seen of RSB). It's the same one where he talks about a big bag of pot and porno being significant influences on his creativity.

Regardless of his so-called systems (or lack thereof), Kishaurim just sounds...kinda dumb. I mean that's probably because I've been internally pronouncing it Sishaurim for the last three years or so, but even so. Sishaurim is just more aesthetically pleasing to me.

ETA: I assume it wasn't a single bag of pot and porno, it was a bag of pot, plus some (presumably) entirely separate porn. Otherwise I want to know who the hell he was buying from, cuz the guy sounds like a godsend for a young teenage boy.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I'd be very surprised if he didn't occasionally supplement his bag of pot with some mushrooms or lsd.

[jurble]

Completely different topic:

Do the Ketyai of the Three Seas practice purdah? We've seen literally 0 noblewomen, and I can't believe I never made the connection before until today (or maybe I have, like several years ago in an older thread). The Thousand Temples is basically Catholicism+Hinduism, and Hindus also practiced purdah in the Middle Ages and well into the modern period. And the Ketyai are brown, of course, just as South Asians. Though, as far as I know, Bakker himself has never pointed to India when defending himself against accusations of sexism when it's brought up that Europe wasn't nearly as sexist as the society depicted in his books.

[lokisnow]

I fiercely resisted the idea that Cnaiur was prounced NAY-UR for a long time, then I noticed Moenghus' pet name for him was Nayu, and it all clicked and I haven't been able to mentally pronounce it as anything other than NAY-UR since. (interesting aside, in TWP when Cnaiur is thinking tenderly of old memories for either his father or for Moenghus his name for himself is Nayu).

iirc, RSB explained the Celmomas-Kelmomas as a shift in how things are spelled, modern world spells things slightly different, iirch, Onkis is spelled differently in the atrocity tale as well.

As far as Cishaurim, I initially did it all ssss--ssss because snakes (I followed the same logic as Kalbear in terms of how to make the mental pronunciation), and for some reason I recall coming across the pronunciation: KEY-sar-rim and that has stuck (or it may have been KEY-shar-rim but i dropped the h somewhere along the way and haven't found it since).

I'm not sure where I got the pronunciation KEY-sar-rim but it may have been from sampling the audio books on amazon, or an old three seas thread.

The fucking, goddamn names are why I popped into the darkness that comes before thread six or seven years ago tosay that I thought the book was good--as far as Dune knockoffs go--but I wasn't going to read any more of the series because the names were absolute impossible to keep straight, much less mentally pronounce or spell. if I've been spelling reading Cishaurim wrong for seven years now this is further proof of bakker's sins. ;)

[Happy Ent]

As to Cnaiür, I pronounce his name with some kind of nasal initial consonant (“palatal nasal”?). That’s what the C does in my mind. So while Nay-oor is a possible transliteration using English letters and English pronunciation, I don’t think the C is silent (in the sense of superfluous). Cnaiür’s hypothetical brother Naiür would be pronounced differently.

So, in X-Sampa: JAi"U\R.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

As far as Cishaurim, I initially did it all ssss--ssss because snakes (I followed the same logic as Kalbear in terms of how to make the mental pronunciation), and for some reason I recall coming across the pronunciation: KEY-sar-rim and that has stuck (or it may have been KEY-shar-rim but i dropped the h somewhere along the way and haven't found it since).

I must admit I initially read Cishaurim as Cis-haurim (as opposed to Trans-haurim, I suppose :) ), before I noticed Kishara thing. I don't mind "c" equals "k" convention though, because Tolkien. OTOH, Nayur sucks.

[Rhom]

Cis-haurim (as opposed to Trans-haurim, I suppose :)

Ahhh... when chirality butts up against fantasy literature. :lol: