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teemo

[BOOK SPOILERS] Gendry, Melisandre, Arya, etc.

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I'm sorry, by no means I wanted to start a flame.

Same, no flaming going on just debating. ;)

Anyhoo, I understand shows deviating from source material. Dexter did it to great success. And even though I've never actually read the books, I enjoy other shows based off books (True Blood, TVD). And heck like I said, I liked some of the changes the GoT show made from the books, I just dislike some of the ones they've made recently.

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I agree, that's why I stated that some changes are understandable, but some are just silly. Theon being too stupid to realize he's being flayed and associate it with the flayed man. And even the BwB changing... I get that Gendry would be a cheap replacement for Edric Storm in terms of casting, but why have the BwB just willingly hand him over for gold? They (the showrunners/writers) could have gotten him within the grasps of Mel some other way without changing the morals of certain characters.

The BwB handed Gendry over because it was the will of their Red God, not just for the money. They're religious zealots.

Theon is never told he's being flayed. Ramsay tells him that he's going to cut his pinky off, not flay it. Also, how many times do you think Theon has left Winterfell? It's not like the Starks vacationed at the Dreadfort once a year. Hell, Sansa says she's never even left Winterfell before going to King's Landing.

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The BwB handed Gendry over because it was the will of their Red God, not just for the money. They're religious zealots.

Theon is never told he's being flayed. Ramsay tells him that he's going to cut his pinky off, not flay it. Also, how many times do you think Theon has left Winterfell? It's not like the Starks vacationed at the Dreadfort once a year. Hell, Sansa says she's never even left Winterfell before going to King's Landing.

1. Maybe it is because of them being religious zealots, that's still changing the characters, just turning them into religious zealots.

2. Flaying = the removal of skin from the body. In the Theon scenes, he was having his skin removed from his pinky. And you don't have to leave Winterfell to have heard of the flayings, the fact that their sigil is a flayed man is common knowledge in Westeros, is it not?

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2. Flaying = the removal of skin from the body. In the Theon scenes, he was having his skin removed from his pinky. And you don't have to leave Winterfell to have heard of the flayings, the fact that their sigil is a flayed man is common knowledge in Westeros, is it not?

I was thinking, maybe that X shaped cross is a common torture instrument, in Westeros. Or at least, not solely belonging to the Boltons. Although their banner is quite a giveaway. But again, I suppose I would be everything but able to make logical connections, if tied to a cross and flayed!

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1. Maybe it is because of them being religious zealots, that's still changing the characters, just turning them into religious zealots.

2. Flaying = the removal of skin from the body. In the Theon scenes, he was having his skin removed from his pinky. And you don't have to leave Winterfell to have heard of the flayings, the fact that their sigil is a flayed man is common knowledge in Westeros, is it not?

They most certainly were religious zealots in the book. They follow a dead man. They drop their banners to worship the Red God. It's funny how people cast their own projections of the characters from the books. Many people interpreted the BwB to be a kind of Robin Hood-esque group of freedom fighters. I always viewed them as a cult.

Theon is told he's going to have his pinky be cut off. He doesn't get flayed until the end of the scene. It's not shocking that a guy who's being mentally and physically tortured wouldn't be able to connect the dots.

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Could anyone tell me what Melisandre told Gendry when saying that unlike him, the brotherhood were just footsoldiers. Did she mention the word..."King"? Could it be that Edric will be Stannis' heir and King after his death?

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Mel's "we will meet again" makes me a little worried that they might make Faceless Men some sort of an offshoot of the R'hllor religion for the sake of simplicity on the show (so as not to intrioduce yet another religion which in the books serves as a great contrast to the god of light but may be too much for the shallow TV story).

Wasn't it suggested in the show that Jacquen was a follower of R'hllor? (Arya's "who is rollo?"). If that is the case Mel and Arya might meet in Braavos during Arya's training.

Well... that would kinda suck...

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Could anyone tell me what Melisandre told Gendry when saying that unlike him, the brotherhood were just footsoldiers. Did she mention the word..."King"? Could it be that Edric will be Stannis' heir and King after his death?

She said he would make kings rise and fall.

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I agree, that's why I stated that some changes are understandable, but some are just silly. Theon being too stupid to realize he's being flayed and associate it with the flayed man. And even the BwB changing... I get that Gendry would be a cheap replacement for Edric Storm in terms of casting, but why have the BwB just willingly hand him over for gold? They (the showrunners/writers) could have gotten him within the grasps of Mel some other way without changing the morals of certain characters.

I really don't understand this at all, the BwBs is selling Arya as a hostage instead of letting her go as soon as they learn her identity.

In the books they're getting ready to rob Arya of her horses with a piece of paper, just like they do the Hound and like they wanted to do to Brienne and Jaime who they run into as well.

I don't understand where people are seeing them put in a more negative light than they are in the books. It is horrible since we assume that Melisandre will sacrifice him to wake stone dragons, but how is Thoros suppose to know that is her intention?

Gendry has no ransom value to the Brotherhood and Melisandre is giving them two huge bags of gold.

I do feel bad that the BwB didn't keep him as a smith because in the books they need a smith badly, even Anguy asking him if he could make the special arrows and Gendry just looks at it and says "find me some good steel"

I knew this altercation would have huge consequences from the moment preview clips showed Thoros, Beric and Melisandre together. I expected Arya to be gone. Having them meet was something that could have consequences down the road or it could not.

Look at what happened with Tywin, with LIttlefinger(who should've recognized her) and now with Melisandre. Arya meet them all in the show. Has anything changed because of those people meeting her? Not really.

The BwB handed Gendry over because it was the will of their Red God, not just for the money. They're religious zealots.

Theon is never told he's being flayed. Ramsay tells him that he's going to cut his pinky off, not flay it. Also, how many times do you think Theon has left Winterfell? It's not like the Starks vacationed at the Dreadfort once a year. Hell, Sansa says she's never even left Winterfell before going to King's Landing.

Theon didn't leave Winterfell until he rode south with Robb Stark to rescue Ned. Unless you call visiting whores in Wintertown leaving.

1. Maybe it is because of them being religious zealots, that's still changing the characters, just turning them into religious zealots.

2. Flaying = the removal of skin from the body. In the Theon scenes, he was having his skin removed from his pinky. And you don't have to leave Winterfell to have heard of the flayings, the fact that their sigil is a flayed man is common knowledge in Westeros, is it not?

1. The books they're religious zealots too, that tell some brothers of the faith of the seven that they'll worship their god under the sept's roof because they had just saved their lives. Thoros has to keep a religious war from breaking out by saying "it's okay to miss a prayer, I should know" They also show Gendry crossing his arms refusing to pray with a Septon while he prays over a meal.

The only thing that they did change is that in the books some of the BwB try to deny the fact that Beric is dead to Arya, we're given this information when Beric and Thoros tell Arya about him being resurrected.

2. Theon is being tortured, that kinda thing will make thinking straight pretty difficult. I'd probably find it difficult to think straight in that situation. He names to closest castle he can think of

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I hope beyond all hope that Melisandre's read of Arya isn't going to supplement the Ghost of High Heart.

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You guys should definitely stop watching now, at this episode. No more posts about the show either. Thanks!

Uh, ok? I really enjoy the show (obviously), or I wouldn't have been watching for three seasons. I don't mind the fact that it's different from the books - I really don't. It's not possible (and wouldn't necessarily work even if it was) to have a line-to-line adaptation. But how would you feel if they just blurted out who sits on the iron throne at the end in an interview or something? IMO they owe the book fans (who are probably also the most passionate followers of the show), at least that much courtesy. I mean, tell us a different story where it makes sense, but don't tell us things even GRRM hasn't told us yet.....

Anyway, it was a random line and we all knew Arya would make it back to Westeros before the end so not a huge deal but now that they know the ending, I'm afraid of what else they're going to be tempted to 'foreshadow'.

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I was thinking, maybe that X shaped cross is a common torture instrument, in Westeros. Or at least, not solely belonging to the Boltons. Although their banner is quite a giveaway. But again, I suppose I would be everything but able to make logical connections, if tied to a cross and flayed!

Yeah but surely all that time he spends alone tied to the cross, his mind would wonder who would do this? And the clues are right there really.

They most certainly were religious zealots in the book. They follow a dead man. They drop their banners to worship the Red God. It's funny how people cast their own projections of the characters from the books. Many people interpreted the BwB to be a kind of Robin Hood-esque group of freedom fighters. I always viewed them as a cult.

Theon is told he's going to have his pinky be cut off. He doesn't get flayed until the end of the scene. It's not shocking that a guy who's being mentally and physically tortured wouldn't be able to connect the dots.

They don't follow Beric because he's a dead man, or because he's associated with Thoros. They follow him because they have the common aim of wanting justice for the smallfolk. Are there any passages in the books to prove that the followers were religious zealots?

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I'm kind of excited in actually having no idea what's going to happen with this particular plotline. My guess is Gendry is taken to Dragonstone, is either going to be used as a blood sacrifice or to make another shadow baby. Davos smuggles him out a la Edric Storm, and Gendry rejoins the BwB, now under UnCat (someone in the episode thread pointed that out, that he may be more apt to rejoin if Arya's mother is the leader). Or, he goes back to the Inn since Hot Pie is there, and stays on as the orphans' protector, which isn't a big book deviation. Then he will still be in the right place for the Brienne attack.

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Not my favourite scene, but I don;t mind the deviation too much. It's kind f fun to have thngs to guess at as a book reader.

Replacing Edric with Gendry makes sense at this point. It does make the BwB a bit unsympathetic though. Shouldn't Thoros at least have an idea of what Mel intends to do with him? He seems like a decent sort, despite being a red priest, so yes that was a bit unsypathetic. Did Mel tell Arya she sees her murdering a bunch of Freys and Lannisters?

And they'll meet again? That'll be interesting.

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Uh, ok? I really enjoy the show (obviously), or I wouldn't have been watching for three seasons. I don't mind the fact that it's different from the books - I really don't. It's not possible (and wouldn't necessarily work even if it was) to have a line-to-line adaptation. But how would you feel if they just blurted out who sits on the iron throne at the end in an interview or something? IMO they owe the book fans (who are probably also the most passionate followers of the show), at least that much courtesy. I mean, tell us a different story where it makes sense, but don't tell us things even GRRM hasn't told us yet.....

Anyway, it was a random line and we all knew Arya would make it back to Westeros before the end so not a huge deal but now that they know the ending, I'm afraid of what else they're going to be tempted to 'foreshadow'.

TBH, we will meet again, could just be some friendly parting words. I know they most likely aren't but it could be.

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I liked how they showed that the Brotherhood isn't so pure as they claim, but I'm also not sure that they are all as bad as they were portrayed either. The Thoros/Melisandre interplay is interesting, but would Thoros really so easily bend to her BS?

Agreed. Like, couldn't they have just asked him to go with her before resorting to forceful kidnapping? Something like 'Hey Gendry, you're a great guy, definitely BwB material, but first how about helping out our lady friend with some important, erm, business..."

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I hope beyond all hope that Melisandre's read of Arya isn't going to supplement the Ghost of High Heart.

The Ghost of High Heart would have taken too much screen time and wouldn't have fit the show, so I think it was good idea to have Melisandre reveal's Arya's true darkness.

And it's not a spoiler to say they will meet again, Melisandre might think that but it doesn't mean its going to happen. In fact its what happens in a DwD.

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I'm kind of excited in actually having no idea what's going to happen with this particular plotline. My guess is Gendry is taken to Dragonstone, is either going to be used as a blood sacrifice or to make another shadow baby. Davos smuggles him out a la Edric Storm, and Gendry rejoins the BwB, now under UnCat (someone in the episode thread pointed that out, that he may be more apt to rejoin if Arya's mother is the leader). Or, he goes back to the Inn since Hot Pie is there, and stays on as the orphans' protector, which isn't a big book deviation. Then he will still be in the right place for the Brienne attack.

This was pretty much my initial read as well with a possible connection to Mel resurrecting Jon down the road.

However, I'm just not sure why he would rejoin that group that sold him off. Gendry may end up doing something completely different entirely or just disappearing. I also tend to think we have seen the last of Hot Pie

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Could anyone tell me what Melisandre told Gendry when saying that unlike him, the brotherhood were just footsoldiers. Did she mention the word..."King"? Could it be that Edric will be Stannis' heir and King after his death?

She tells Gendry that he will make Kings rise(Stannis) and fall(Robb, Balon, Joffrey)....

They don't follow Beric because he's a dead man, or because he's associated with Thoros. They follow him because they have the common aim of wanting justice for the smallfolk. Are there any passages in the books to prove that the followers were religious zealots?

Plenty of passages to prove their religious nuts and plenty of passages to show them robbing commonfolk as well(Gendry, Arya, Hot Pie, Brienne, bald Jaime, the Hound) and plenty of passages that show their "trials" are not fair, everyone dies from them. The only two to walk away with their life that we know of are Sandor Clegane and Brienne of Tarth. Brienne doesn't really count because she meets them after unCat is leading the BwBs.

Many people fall victim to their claim of being noble fighters for the common folk and it's true that is their intention but the reality is things like Jaime Lannister says:

"Know this, Blackfish, Lord Beric and this Lady Stoneheart are traitors to the crown and if I find out any of you are aiding them you will die"

I'm kind of excited in actually having no idea what's going to happen with this particular plotline. My guess is Gendry is taken to Dragonstone, is either going to be used as a blood sacrifice or to make another shadow baby. Davos smuggles him out a la Edric Storm, and Gendry rejoins the BwB, now under UnCat (someone in the episode thread pointed that out, that he may be more apt to rejoin if Arya's mother is the leader). Or, he goes back to the Inn since Hot Pie is there, and stays on as the orphans' protector, which isn't a big book deviation. Then he will still be in the right place for the Brienne attack.

I don't think that Gendry is going to think too highly of the BwBs now, they just sold him after he thought they were going to be his friends, his brothers, his family. Maybe he'll seek out his "milady" instead.

Honestly I could think him joining Stannis or sailing off to the free cities(hopefully to Braavos) is more likely than returning to the BwBs.

My hope is he sails for Essos and chooses to go to Braavos, failing that I hope he goes to the Wall and Smiths for them while Stannis is there.

I think it's a bad idea to try and figure out what is going to happen a few seasons down the road. There's no guarantee that the show will still be around and the writers are going to leave as many doors open as possible.

I do think it's clear that they're not concerned about Brienne and Gendry meeting two or three seasons from now.

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