[BOOK SPOILERS] Meera vs. Osha

[Joyful Union]

It was less idiotic in the books because in the books people disapear for long periods, whole books even, LOL, ...they split up so that it would be impossible for both heirs to be caught at the same time, increasing the chances that at least one of them would survive.

Still not a particularly convincing argument, because there was little need for them disapear for whole books, particularly since neither Rickon nor Osha were memorable or interesting. Why on earth would she go all the way to Skagos? Has she ever been to Skagos? Would she know how to survive there, would the people welcome them? Why Skagos and not White Harbor? Or anywhere else for that matter?

[Cas Stark]

Still not a particularly convincing argument, because there was little need for them disapear for whole books, particularly since neither Rickon nor Osha were memorable or interesting. Why on earth would she go all the way to Skagos? Has she ever been to Skagos? Would she know how to survive there, would the people welcome them? Why Skagos and not White Harbor? Or anywhere else for that matter?

We don't know, maybe Book Osha will explain it all to us, but I don't think Skaagos is that far off the northern coast and if you wanted to go somewhere that pretty much no one would randomly run into you and a Stark heir, Skaagos is not a bad choice.

['96Buck]

3. Jojen Reed is not a greenseer, Howland Reed is not a greenseer. Jojen Reed has "green sight", "the sight" or"green dreams". Howland Reed does not have his sons gift, unless you believe that Jojen and Meera Reed have a reason to lie to their prince.

The show has yet to draw a distinction and I doubt they will, other than reveal that Bran has "more" of it, once they reach the cave.

['96Buck]

Still not a particularly convincing argument, because there was little need for them disapear for whole books, particularly since neither Rickon nor Osha were memorable or interesting. Why on earth would she go all the way to Skagos? Has she ever been to Skagos? Would she know how to survive there, would the people welcome them? Why Skagos and not White Harbor? Or anywhere else for that matter?

She's far more apt to have relevant survivial skills and credibility in Skagos than in White Harbor. They have to leave Winterfell's dominion, but she won't cross the Wall again. Where ELSE but Skagos? How can they know White Harbor would be safe? Also, it probably wouldn't be.

[jblair]

No harm, no foul. Spices both of them up a bit. For those people wanting to truncate the storyline, please remember the limits of the medium: you cannot have one of the most crucial players in the series make token appearances a few times a season on a TV show. It just doesn't work that way.

[AegonSnow]

If I can say: Meera/Osha shipping...

[Gendels Children]

I think this scene was ok.

It gives a little further reason for Osha to want to split from the Reeds. Jojen having a fit-like green dream was a little dramatic but it wouldn't be as good if he simple woke up like "oh good morning guys, by the way I had a dream about Jon". which brings me to my next point, seeing Jon on the wrong side of the Wall and surrounded by enemies, could be just the thing to pull the group apart, Osha might think its stupid to continue on to the Wall when the person they are looking for refuge with is not even there and may never return, the Reeds could finally bring In the point that Brans future is beyond the Wall and they must go anyway, Osha would be all like "ah hell no! I agreed to go TO it not beyond, do u have any idea what in on the other side of that Wall? its not safe and im not letting them go" they could argue and eventually split in half, Osha taking Rickon because its not safe to have both Stark boys together nor is it safe beyond the Wall for such a small child considering its not his fate that resides on that side, Bran and co can continue on and hopefully make an appearance at QueensCrown. (but im not getting my hopes up for that).

also, am I the only one who found the term "on the wrong side of the Wall" a little vague, maybe its just wishful thinking but it could be a reference to something happening later. I mean by ADWD its constantly noted that people are fighting or preparing on the wrong side of the Wall -meaning the south side. Ive always felt Jons future belongs on the North side fighting the REAL enemy. maybe the wrong side is the south side and Jon surrounded by enemies could mean the Others have ventured further south past the Wall, and Jon is pursuing against them. or it would be in reference to Jons last chapter in ADWD. but perhaps it simply is what it is. I know the TV show wouldn't be trying to make prediction too far ahead, (despite Mel promising her and Arya will meet again, which I assumed was a TWOW hint, but could be another scene they are adding into the adaption). but Jojens dream can be taken in more than one way, its most likely a little too much for me to read so far into something pulled up from the TV show, after all its not something straight from one of GRRMs books

[Ser Cookie Monster]

I think this scene was ok.

It gives a little further reason for Osha to want to split from the Reeds. Jojen having a fit-like green dream was a little dramatic but it wouldn't be as good if he simple woke up like "oh good morning guys, by the way I had a dream about Jon". which brings me to my next point, seeing Jon on the wrong side of the Wall and surrounded by enemies, could be just the thing to pull the group apart, Osha might think its stupid to continue on to the Wall when the person they are looking for refuge with is not even there and may never return, the Reeds could finally bring In the point that Brans future is beyond the Wall and they must go anyway, Osha would be all like "ah hell no! I agreed to go TO it not beyond, do u have any idea what in on the other side of that Wall? its not safe and im not letting them go" they could argue and eventually split in half, Osha taking Rickon because its not safe to have both Stark boys together nor is it safe beyond the Wall for such a small child considering its not his fate that resides on that side, Bran and co can continue on and hopefully make an appearance at QueensCrown. (but im not getting my hopes up for that).

This is exactly why I didn't like the scene. In the books they separate because Luwin tells Osha to do it. It's safer to keep Bran and Rickon separated since there's at least more probability that one heir will survive. But apparently in the show Bran and Rickon will split just because Osha and Meera can't get along. So, is Bran gonna let Osha take his little brother away just because she can't stand Meera and "magic"? ... ugh .... ok.....

But anyways, all I want to hear in this season is Jojen's and Meera's oath:

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

The story of The Knight of the Laughing Tree, and Jojen's quote about love and hate:

"Up and down," Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, "then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran."

"Yesterday you said you loved them."

"Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say."

Bran made a face at her. "But you just said you hated them."

"Why can't it be both?" Meera reached up to pinch his nose.

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled."

And then, I'll be happy.

ETA: The love and hate quote summarizes pretty much how I feel about the show :P, and also many other things in my life.

[Khal Porno]

They totally want to do it, guys.

[Gendels Children]

This is exactly why I didn't like the scene. In the books they separate because Luwin tells Osha to do it. It's safer to keep Bran and Rickon separated since there's at least more probability that one heir will survive. But apparently in the show Bran and Rickon will split just because Osha and Meera can't get along. So, is Bran gonna let Osha take his little brother away just because she can't stand Meera and "magic"? ... ugh .... ok.....

I understand how you feel, but since they didn't give us the Luwin scene the way it was meant to be -mostly due to them not introducing the Reeds in the right time frame- this is pretty much the best we are gonna get, but at least things seem to be getting back on track now when they DO split. my point wasn't that the are splitting solely because Osha and Meera cant get along, but that it adds extra reason to a resulting conflict about the Wall and the Reeds intentions to go beyond it and not simply to Castle Black for safety. I think they them selves will come to the conclusion to separate for Rickons safety, which Bran will be all for trying to protect his little brother from harm. but this is just my assumption of what will happen, clearly it hasn't yet so only time will tell

[Gendels Children]

They totally want to do it, guys.

:cheers:

[Gendels Children]

Still not a particularly convincing argument, because there was little need for them disapear for whole books, particularly since neither Rickon nor Osha were memorable or interesting. Why on earth would she go all the way to Skagos? Has she ever been to Skagos? Would she know how to survive there, would the people welcome them? Why Skagos and not White Harbor? Or anywhere else for that matter?

hmm well we don't get too much history of Osha maybe she has been to Skagos before. also Rickon is rather memorable being that he has a huge wild black direwolf trailing along with him ever so loyally. I my self would think to get as far away as possible the further you are from harm the more likely to survive . I don't think Osha had many options, going south is a death sentence, places too heavily populated would be just as dangerous, Skagos is a part of the north so in theory under the thumb of Winterfell -so the Starks, and as far as I know they have not sided with anyone else, plus they are quite distant from the rest of westeros having little contact. seem like a clever choice to me, its the least likely place to recognise Rickon while still staying in the north, plus it puts a lot of water between them selves and any Others who might venture south

[David of Kent]

The only places it can be going are (1) Osha leaves with Rickon because she can't get along with Meera or (2) Nowhere. I would say either outcome is most definitely idiotic and a waste of screen time that could be better used on Bran's story.

On what story from ASOS? All that happens before they reach the wall at the Nightfort is travelling and Bran having his strange dreams. It doesn't get interesting until they meet Sam and Gilly and then Coldhands and that's quite possibly not till either the end of this season or the beginning of next. There's nothing interesting to tell so I think you're wasting a lot of energy being so angry about this storyline, especially since it's featuring in very small segments

[Cas Stark]

On what story from ASOS? All that happens before they reach the wall at the Nightfort is travelling and Bran having his strange dreams. It doesn't get interesting until they meet Sam and Gilly and then Coldhands and that's quite possibly not till either the end of this season or the beginning of next. There's nothing interesting to tell so I think you're wasting a lot of energy being so angry about this storyline, especially since it's featuring in very small segments

They've departed from the books already, I maintain that they could have done a much better job with their departure from the books in telling Bran's story than what they are doing, its not that complicated really. None of what we're seeing happened in the books so they obviously could have invented other, BETTER, more relevant material for those segments than Osha and Meera having a meaningless spat.

[Mulled Wino]

Still not a particularly convincing argument, because there was little need for them disapear for whole books, particularly since neither Rickon nor Osha were memorable or interesting. Why on earth would she go all the way to Skagos? Has she ever been to Skagos? Would she know how to survive there, would the people welcome them? Why Skagos and not White Harbor? Or anywhere else for that matter?

Maybe Osha and/or RIckon will be memorable.

Why couldn't she survive on Skagos? They don't want to be recognized by anyone and they have a pet direwolf that I'm sure can help with their survival skills.

Suggesting White Harbor makes me wonder if you were following that arc at all. They are supposed to be dead to everyone. They have no way of knowing what is going on in White Harbor.

[Mark Antony]

Plus isn't Skagos an island? We know how scared Osha is of the White Walkers, Maybe she figured if she was gonna stay in The North they would be safest on an island? IDK.

[Joyful Union]

Why couldn't she survive on Skagos? They don't want to be recognized by anyone and they have a pet direwolf that I'm sure can help with their survival skills.

Suggesting White Harbor makes me wonder if you were following that arc at all. They are supposed to be dead to everyone. They have no way of knowing what is going on in White Harbor.

My point is that she doesnt know what Skagos is like, whether she would be able to survive there. All she knows is that the people there are cannibals, so why would she go there of all places? We could have done with maybe a few lines about her having relatives there, anything at all, but we didn't. Direwolves arent invincible, particularly if the natives decide to kill them.

Basically I'm trying to say that Osha and Rickon could have gone anywhere, and Skagos seems a completely random choice. Why not go North to the mountain clans? They're certainly loyal beyond a doubt, and a few them may have even seen Rickon before.

No need to be condescending. What reason would they have to think that Manderly wouldn't believe them or give them shelter?

[SerMixalot]

You must have loved the Jaime/Tywin scene in season 1 then.

I am always impressed when actors are able to do such skills while acting. I mean how many rabbits would they have gone through to get that scene right, and 2 actors doing it. Tywin undressed an entire buck while monologuing at Jaime fantastic.

[PatrickStormborn]

Still not a particularly convincing argument, because there was little need for them disapear for whole books, particularly since neither Rickon nor Osha were memorable or interesting. Why on earth would she go all the way to Skagos? Has she ever been to Skagos? Would she know how to survive there, would the people welcome them? Why Skagos and not White Harbor? Or anywhere else for that matter?

Osha is a wildling; she'd naturally feel a lot more comfortable at Skagos than White Harbour. Going south would always have been a stupid idea, particularly as Robb's war was doomed.

[protar]

I've been really disappointed with how Bran has been handled so far. It's not just that he doesn't have much material, that's not really D+D's fault, it's that his story is so jerky and disjointed. He's not in the premiere, then he has quite a lot of stuff in E2, then suddenly he's just disappearing every other episode and all of his scenes are the same mystical dream milarky every time. A good seven episode arc for Bran would have been:

• E1: Absent.
  
• E2: Osha thinks they're being followed. Bran sees Jojen in a green dream.
  
• E3: Meeting Jojen and Meera and allying with them.
  
• E4: Exposition on warging.
  
• E5: Absent.
  
• E6: Knight of the Laughing Tree story.
  
• E7: Queenscrown
  
• E8: Absent
  
• E9: Osha and Rickon part from the main group.
  
• E10: Bran and the Reeds reach the Nightfort and meet Sam.
  

Instead we've so far had IIRC.

• E1: Absent
  
• E2: Dreams about then meets Jojen and Meera, exposition on warging.
  
• E3: Absent
  
• E4: Has a dream.
  
• E5: Doesn't appear
  
• E6: Jojen has a dream. Cat fighting.
  

And that's it over half way through the season. No meaningful development in 4 episodes. There's fortunately still time to redeem the second half of the story. Being chased by Ramsay's men (or hopefully Ramay himself) is going to be rather faux-dramatic for us who know that nothing will come of it, but hopefully can be written well. We can have a heartfelt parting scene for Osha and Rickon, a hopefully action-packed Queenscrown and a chilling Nightfort in episode 10.