Jaime is probably a Targ

[The Mother of The Others]

Aegon too.

[shk12344]

Problem with all these secret Targ theory is that there are no one alive who could confirm it, except of course Howland Reed concerning Jon Snow's parents. Everything else is just pure silly speculation.

[straits]

Yeah, what you just described there is indeed circular, but the way mattah84 is using the quote is not--because of this part of the "dream":

"Jaime: This is just a dream.

Silent Sister: Then why do you only have one hand?

Jaime then notices that its true and that in his dreams he always has both hands."

So you don't have to assume this is a prophetic dream since the quote itself establishes its reality and authenticity.

So it is a vision appearing to Jamie, who did not come to the conclusion that he isn't Tywin's son upon experiencing it. Both Jamie's knighthood and Cersei's time as queen have gone horribly awry. The Silent Sister's claim (pertaining to Tywin) that his son and his daughter would be promising individuals suggests that Tywin has both a son, and a daughter.

It isn't difficult to see where Jamie's knighthood went wrong; the same goes for Cersei. There are features that justify the Sister's tear - the twins are a disappointment in a great number of ways, and the likeliest cause is thus already present.

So why must Jamie be a Targaryen in disguise?

[nekrohsis]

I think it's true, but will never be proven. More of an easter egg than anything.

[mrunderhill]

So it is a vision appearing to Jamie, who did not come to the conclusion that he isn't Tywin's son upon experiencing it. Both Jamie's knighthood and Cersei's time as queen have gone horribly awry. The Silent Sister's claim (pertaining to Tywin) that his son and his daughter would be promising individuals suggests that Tywin has both a son, and a daughter.

It isn't difficult to see where Jamie's knighthood went wrong; the same goes for Cersei. There are features that justify the Sister's tear - the twins are a disappointment in a great number of ways, and the likeliest cause is thus already present.

So why must Jamie be a Targaryen in disguise?

I saw it this way too. It's almost a case of be careful what you wish for. Tywin wanted his children to be respected, to be feared and admired. Hence he wanted Cersei to be Queen and Jaime to be a great knight. He got his first wish, but they are laughing stocks. Jaime is the most hated Kingsguard in history and Cersei is a tyrannical Queen.

I also read Genna's comments as confirming that Jaime is Tywin's. He has so many qualities from Tywin's brothers, but sadly did not inherit anything from his father.

As for the hair comment concerning Tyrion if I remember correctly Tommen has the same hair colour.

[chimere]

Newsflash: Hodor is also a Targ

:agree: Yep, and Ned was also a secret Targ!

My theory is that in the end of the book it will be revealed that ALL the characters in Westeros are secretly Targs lol :rofl: :rofl: (Yes I'm joking)

[~DarkHorse~]

My theory is that in the end of the book it will be revealed that ALL the characters in Westeros are secretly Targs lol :rofl: :rofl: (Yes I'm joking)

Well, it wouldn't surprise me. Those Targs are breeding all over the place....apparently. :dunno:

[The Night's Prince]

Lord have mercy! If this is the case then why even introduce Lannisters in the story!? There are none left from the main branch. Good lord! There'd literally no point to have POVs of freaking 5 Targaryens. Why would any decent author do something so stupid? I included Jon because R+L=J is 98% confirmed. I mean think about this. Seriously ponder the ramifications. It would be the worst turn of events since novels were written. There is a 0% chance any Lannister is a Targaryen.

[Orphu]

Oh is that a joke?

Dragons + Wildfire would result in Kingslanding burning to the ground.

Problem with all these secret Targ theory is that there are no one alive who could confirm it, except of course Howland Reed concerning Jon Snow's parents. Everything else is just pure silly speculation.

Bran will probably be the one to reveal Jons parentage. He could find out Jaimies too.

[Golden&Crimson]

Everyone is a secret Targaryen.

Except Ramsay: he is a secret Stark!

Proof? There was a Stark king named Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark.

[Kahl Trollo]

I know Jaime can be a bit dimwitted at times, but that's a bit harsh.

oh...sorry..you said TARG.... my bad.

[The Red Hand]

When Daenerys finally conquers King's landing and burns everything, it would be cool to see Jaime turn out to be the son of Aerys. Jaime seems doomed, and I would like to see him survive Stoneheart, then see him survive a direct onslaught by dragon fire. This would cast Jaime as a Kinslayer, leading to a common ground that could lead to a reconciliation between Jaime and his brother. It also raises the possibility that Cersei's Valonqar is a dragon-rider, so she might get strangled to death by a dragon.

1.) Targaryens aren't immune to dragonfire.

2.) Dragons can't strangle people.

Well, there are some more mini pieces (e.g. Aerys' behaviour at the wedding, Cersei's parallels to Aerys), but all in all, it's still pretty weak. Unlike Tyrion being a secret Targ, at least it doesn't clash with any SSM, so that's at least something ;-)

What?

Oh and i forgot point 5

Do you remember Jaime and Cersei first son?

If that's not a full blown case of Targ madness I don't no what is

I thought the argument was that Targs are mad because they're incestuous? Joffrey has 2 generations of incest prior to his birth so how does his being mad make him a Targaryen? And how many mad targs were there truly? Aerion and Aerys and perhaps Viserys? Hardly a family trait IMO.

Tyrion is more likely to be the son of the mad king but I still don't buy it. If Tywin honestly did believe Tyrion to be Aerys' son there is no way he would have survived infancy, Tywin had a bastard of Robert's killed at Castelly Rock, Why not the mad king's.

Littlefinger repeated a rumor to Ned that Cersei had one of Robert's bastards killed. Tywin seemed all about advancing the Lannister name and whether it's A+J=JandC or A+J=T, they would still be Lanns on their mother's side.(The mother Tywin loved)

If Jaime was a Targ, then who would his mother be? Or father if we're taking that route.

It's usually assumed to be Aerys as the father, Joanna as the mother.

A lot of people wants their fave character to be a Targ so they might get a slice of dragon lol

But no, I don't think any of the Lannisters are Targs

Theon's my favorite character and I realize the idea of him being a Targ is ridiculous (no matter how much I'd like to see him on a dragon). I think Tyrion could be a targ because it makes sense.

There are already enough secret Targaryen theories, and this is the least creditable of the lot.

Really? Less credible than Darkstar, Sam, Hodor, or Ned being a secret Targ? Though to be fair Hodor is possible.

Yeah, what you just described there is indeed circular, but the way mattah84 is using the quote is not--because of this part of the "dream":

"Jaime: This is just a dream.

Silent Sister: Then why do you only have one hand?

Jaime then notices that its true and that in his dreams he always has both hands."

So you don't have to assume this is a prophetic dream since the quote itself establishes its reality and authenticity.

I would actually like to hear people argue why this quote does not suggest Jaime is a Targ.

I agree that the dream is probably prophetic but "Joanna" says that Tywin dreamed that he would have a son and a daughter who wouldn't be laughed at as well . I think it was more of a foreshadowing of the WoS than anything else.

Lord have mercy! If this is the case then why even introduce Lannisters in the story!? There are none left from the main branch. Good lord! There'd literally no point to have POVs of freaking 5 Targaryens. Why would any decent author do something so stupid? I included Jon because R+L=J is 98% confirmed. I mean think about this. Seriously ponder the ramifications. It would be the worst turn of events since novels were written. There is a 0% chance any Lannister is a Targaryen.

5 targ POVs? I only count 1, maybe 2.

[nirolo]

So it is a vision appearing to Jamie, who did not come to the conclusion that he isn't Tywin's son upon experiencing it. Both Jamie's knighthood and Cersei's time as queen have gone horribly awry. The Silent Sister's claim (pertaining to Tywin) that his son and his daughter would be promising individuals suggests that Tywin has both a son, and a daughter.

It isn't difficult to see where Jamie's knighthood went wrong; the same goes for Cersei. There are features that justify the Sister's tear - the twins are a disappointment in a great number of ways, and the likeliest cause is thus already present.

So why must Jamie be a Targaryen in disguise?

I don't know why I am defending this quote. :dunno:

The question I have is why would GRRM make it painfully clear that this passage is more than just a "dream".

We all know GRRM is a master of the double entendre, so can you blame posters for trying to find hidden meanings in passages that are worded suspiciously?

And if you really hate this theory so much, then why not do your best to destroy the best evidence it has, which is this passage?

Sure, it's fun to ridicule a position, but it doesn't do much to prevent similar arguments from popping up in future threads.

But hey, don't let me stop you from enjoying yourself.

[straits]

I don't know why I am defending this quote. :dunno:

The question I have is why would GRRM make it painfully clear that this passage is more than just a "dream".

We all know GRRM is a master of the double entendre, so can you blame posters for trying to find hidden meanings in passages that are worded suspiciously?

And if you really hate this theory so much, then why not do your best to destroy the best evidence it has, which is this passage?

Sure, it's fun to ridicule a position, but it doesn't do much to prevent similar arguments from popping up in future threads.

But hey, don't let me stop you from enjoying yourself.

I don't see where I ridiculed the theory; I did repeatedly assert that this is not evidence. Dreams are often a reflection of inner turmoil, and it is not hard to see why Jamie would be experiencing this. Whatever hidden meanings there are, I do not think they point towards Tywin's son and daughter actually being Aerys' get, for reasons stated previously.

[nirolo]

I agree that the dream is probably prophetic but "Joanna" says that Tywin dreamed that he would have a son and a daughter who wouldn't be laughed at as well . I think it was more of a foreshadowing of the WoS than anything else.

I think so, too. The passage is most likely about Jaime's own self-reflection than anything else.

[lady m]

As for the hair comment concerning Tyrion if I remember correctly Tommen has the same hair colour.

Lancel's hair is more ashy than Lannister gold, as well, before it turns white.

Honestly, the dream, if its not a dream, lends itself to an interpretation that Joanna Lannister abandoned her family rather than died in childbirth. And no where in it does the woman, if its supposed to be Joanna, ever even hint that Tywin isn't the father of the twins. She talks about Tywin's dreams for his children, his shortcomings and frailties.

Not saying that's what I think's going on, but if its a vision, not a dream, then it could be read that way.

[coil]

I'd love if Jaime/Cersei were the two Targaryens, sadly all the hints points at Tyrion :(

A comparison!

In italics, the reasons why I'm pro-Tyrion instead of the twins, but I'll try to be as objective as possible.

Tyrion

-His hair, rather than blond, is more really pale-blond like, suggesting the Targaryen silver hair

-Exactly like the other two Targaryens (namely Dany and Jon - if you assume that R+L=J is correct like I do) were born with the death of their mothers, Tyrion does the same

-Tyrion is fascinated by dragons and had dreams about them, like many other Targs

-Tywin's last line is "You are not my son"

-The famous "His shadow stood as tall as a king" line hints at him being a 'king', like Targs. Jon gets called by Mormont's crow as 'king' as well

-Tyrion is often compared to a gargoyle. Other users have theorized that Dragonstone's gargoyle (all dragons) may be a hint about his heritage, since he's the only character who gets compared to a statue (although I believe it refers more about Greyscale, but this is off topic)

-In Jaime's dream, Joanna mention Tywin's desires for his sons... specifically only Jaime and Cersei, to then cry since while they are namely what Tywin wanted, in reality they are a knight who broke all of his vows and the worst queen Westeros has seen in centuries.

She doesn't mention Tyrion at all, hence hinting that he's her son... but not Tywin's.

-No one is most accursed than the kinslayer... if Tywin's not Tyrion's father, then it means that the Imp is not a kinslayer!

Although his mother died in childbirth, so I'm not sure this means anything.

-Tywin suspects Tyrion not to be his, but he cannot prove it.

-Heterocromy suggests two different heritages in his case, look at the colours!

Jaime/Cersei

-Jaime's dream. As stated, to me it looks more as a confirm about Tyrion that anything

-Tywin says "You are not son of mine" to Jaime as well. In this case, however, it looks more like sentence a really deluded man says

-No dreams about dragons whatsoever. Plus, Tywin never says something like that to Cersei.

-Cersei is fascinated by wildfyre. In my opinion this makes her look, rather than a Targ, as the perfect target for a kingslaying (as Jaime killed Aerys for burning, he will kill her sister)

-Cersei drew herself and Rhaegar riding a dragon. When she was a child, after that apparently no more dragon-like fantasies. Most importantly, no dreams about dragons.

-Genna mentions Tyrion to be Tywin's son ...but as other users said, it looks more like she is confirming Jaime's Lannister-like qualities! Plus, it's not like Genna ever hinted to know/suspect anything about Aerys and Joanna.

-Targ's hair colour gene seems to be recessive, so the twins being blond rather than pale white doesn't mean anything

-Incest is welcome in the Targ family

-The relationship with excellence/madness being typical in Targaryens seem to be reflected in both But it's not like madness or greatness are an exclusive Targ prerogative... Jinglebell Frey is mad without being a Targ, Robb was a great tactician compared to the Young Dragon despite being a Stark, for example.

My heart wshes for the twins, but the head screams Tyrion to me :(

[nirolo]

Lancel's hair is more ashy than Lannister gold, as well, before it turns white.

Honestly, the dream, if its not a dream, lends itself to an interpretation that Joanna Lannister abandoned her family rather than died in childbirth. And no where in it does the woman, if its supposed to be Joanna, ever even hint that Tywin isn't the father of the twins. She talks about Tywin's dreams for his children, his shortcomings and frailties.

Not saying that's what I think's going on, but if its a vision, not a dream, then it could be read that way.

I think Joanna is the likely candidate for the woman in the quote due to these facts:

1. Jaime confuses the woman with Cersei

2. Jaime knows who she is but he cannot bare to say her name.

3. The woman has green eyes and gold hair.

4. The woman has compared herself to Jaime's father.

“I am not your sister, Jaime.” She raised a pale soft hand and pushed her hood back. “Have you forgotten me?”

Can I forget someone I never knew? The words caught in his throat. He did know her, but it had been so long...

“Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly.” Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. “He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most.”

Not commenting on the meaning of the quote, just saying the silent sister is likely to be Jaime's mother.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

What?

I was referring to the "Mother-Father-Ned" quote: When asked about how babies with dead mothers like Dany, Tyrion or Jon get their names, GRRM explains "Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned." On the face of it, it's just a big (and actually not that subtle) hint that Ned isn't Jon's father. On the second thought, it also implies that Tywin is Tyrion's.

This doesn't kill A+L=T of course (GRRM could have been purposely lying or making a mistake being totally careful with keeping to the actual truth rather than what everyone in the books thinks with Jon and then forgetting about Tyrion), it's just one of the many things to be considered about the theory.

[Spilly]

First off, its a theory that's been proposed many times, but its usually dismissed as being preposterous.

Second, its not as bad as some theories - one time I saw an 'R+L = Sam' theory..

Welcome by the way :)

R+L=Sam HAHAHAHAHAhahaha!!!