Is It Ever OK To Steal?

[Fragile Bird]

Just because they didn't release an album doesn't mean the music isn't published. I've heard of publishing companies like ascap going around to bars that don't pay money to ascap and making sure that no cover music is even being played there. Not sure if this is true or an urban legend musicians tell each other.

No, it's not an urban myth. Several store owners I know have told me they received letters from the governing body here in Canada ordering them to cease playing music in their stores or start paying fees. So they went to Sirius radio and found a suitable station to play in their shops.

[Lord Lymond Lychester]

I can't put a precise date on it, but some time ago, phrases like "victimless crime", "it doesn't hurt anyone", "it doesn't cost them anything", and the like started becoming commonplace. That is the type of thing I see continuing unabated. The digital age made things worse because now, things could be copied with no perceived cost and you didn't even have to touch the media to copy it. Before, you had to at least make a tape, burn a CD or similar evidence of your intent to produce a copy of something you didn't own. Oh, I forgot the worst phrase, "everyone's doing it".

Everyone keeps referring to morality. What about legality? Isn't that nothing but a codification of morality, written by those chosen to represent society?

All of those quoted terms I bolded would be said by the perpetrator, not generalized by the society in which it happens. I've never heard of a reporter or journalist talking about someone stealing something and claiming "it didn't hurt anyone", "didn't cost them anything", "it's a victimless crime", or "everyone's doing it", it's generally said by those who have stolen something or are planning on stealing something.

Regarding that paragraph though, in the digital age media is in a digital form (hence why you can purchase movies and music through itunes, and not be given a hard copy of it). The only difference between today and 20 years ago, in terms of how we acquire our entertainment, is it is much easier to make your own copy today. You are still technically stealing a movie whether you taped it off the tv or downloaded it, because they both deprive the people involved with the film of the royalties or any sort of compensation.

I am a downloader, a movie-goer, a movie purchaser, and a student. I don't have the funds to see all the movies, tv shows. or purchase all the music that interests me. I will download a tv show, movie, or music to see if I like it. If I don't like I won't buy it, if I do like it I buy it and use my money to support the people who make things that I find enjoyment in and that I'd like to see more of.

I download the shit out of GoT, and when the series is complete I will buy the entire series

Bought the first 3 seasons of breaking bad on dvd, after downloading it off course, then I bought a bluray player and haven't purchased a season since, but I am still planning on buying the entire series on bluray when it finishes.

Call that what you want but if I'm not sure I'll like a movie/tv show/album I won't pay to see/listen to it. if I do end up liking it after downloading it, I will most likely end up buying it. But as for now I don't have the funds to appease my entertainment needs, so I'll download to narrow my buy list

In this link the president* claims piracy had no effect on the tv show and is more complimented by it than anything... http://www.vanityfai...-four-downloads

*edit: president of hbo

[Relic]

Why ask a question when you already made up your mind? Kinda dishonest, no?

[Castel]

Call that what you want but if I'm not sure I'll like a movie/tv show/album I won't pay to see/listen to it. if I do end up liking it after downloading it, I will most likely end up buying it. But as for now I don't have the funds to appease my entertainment needs, so I'll download to narrow my buy list

Not sure where this idea that you should buy things only when you enjoy them comes from. That's not how it works.

You buy things because you assume that you'll enjoy them, you're paying for the work anyway. Caveat emptor.

[Fragile Bird]

Not sure where this idea that you should buy things only when you enjoy them comes from. That's not how it works.

You buy things because you assume that you'll enjoy them, you're paying for the work anyway. Caveat emptor.

I agree. I'm always buying cds (a dying breed of consumer, I know) because I've heard a few cuts and liked it, only to find out the rest of the cd isn't so great. But I don't care. I try to listen to as much as I can on You Tube first so I don't make drastic mistakes.

[Lord Lymond Lychester]

Not sure where this idea that you should buy things only when you enjoy them comes from. That's not how it works.

You buy things because you assume that you'll enjoy them, you're paying for the work anyway. Caveat emptor.

I'm not sure how to reply to this but I'll try my hardest.

Caveat emptor, buyer beware, I am being the cautious buyer by listening to an album and watching a movie or tv show before I buy it. Much like when we had movie rental stores (the area I live in has none anymore), it's a place to check out movies and tv shows that you haven't seen before, before you decide to purchase them for yourself or others. Or as Fragile Bird mentioned above, using youtube to listen to some songs before deciding to purchase the album.

In no way am I saying that what I do is the right thing to do, but considering how many tv shows, movies, and musicians I'm interested in, and the lack of money in my pocket, this is my way of making sure I am satisfied with what I purchase.

If I had the money to buy a new car, I'd test drive it first. Pair of pants, try them on. Some sunglasses, see how they look/fit first. I'd demo a set of skiis before I bought them. Play a round of golf at a club before I joined. It's just the way I am, so far it's been going great, and I've been happy with my purchases, I'd like to think I'm taking the buyer beware phrase to the next step

[Castel]

In no way am I saying that what I do is the right thing to do, but considering how many tv shows, movies, and musicians I'm interested in, and the lack of money in my pocket, this is my way of making sure I am satisfied with what I purchase.

Well, as long as you're not calling it the morally right choice.

I'm a bit miffed that I have to agree with Robin here, because I know that this thread was made to draw in responses like this, but there it is.

If I had the money to buy a new car, I'd test drive it first. Pair of pants, try them on. Some sunglasses, see how they look/fit first. I'd demo a set of skiis before I bought them. Play a round of golf at a club before I joined. It's just the way I am, so far it's been going great, and I've been happy with my purchases, I'd like to think I'm taking the buyer beware phrase to the next step

Totally different. You cannot test a show in the same manner as a car or clothes. Those things are for repeat use and you're not getting the value out of them by trying them in supervised conditions. You absolutely can suck the value out of a show by watching it without paying for it.

There are plenty of ways to decide if you may like a show, you can watch trailers and promos.Some shows even offer free episodes.Or you can look at the huge fucking industry designed to inform you on the various forms of entertainment.I don't think that you can search any series without running into at least three reviewers.

[Penguin king]

It says a lot about us a species when we've invented so many exceptions to the rule that you should never take another person's life (Self defence, punishment, war, euthanasia, etc) but so many people reject the idea that it could ever be justified to enjoy another person's intellectual property with out financial compensation or their direct consent.

[Lord Lymond Lychester]

Well, as long as you're not calling it the morally right choice.

I'm a bit miffed that I have to agree with Robin here, because I know that this thread was made to draw in responses like this, but there it is.

Sorry man, but I have no problem divulging in my illegal activities, just a bit of weed and some downloading.

Don't get me wrong I would never steal anything, I'm a worrier and not one for unneeded stress, so that would just ruin my day.

I have no problem downloading a movie, tv show, or an album though.

Totally different. You cannot test a show in the same manner as a car or clothes. Those things are for repeat use and you're not getting the value out of them by trying them in supervised conditions. You absolutely can suck the value out of a show by watching it without paying for it.

There are plenty of ways to decide if you may like a show, you can watch trailers and promos.Some shows even offer free episodes.Or you can look at the huge fucking industry designed to inform you on the various forms of entertainment.I don't think that you can search any series without running into at least three reviewers.

I'm aware of all the reviews, trailers and promos out there for all the movies, tv shows, and musicians out there. But just because I'm being told what a show is actually like doesn't mean I know what it's going to be like. So many trailers and promos for tv shows that I had seen made me think some movies and shows would be bad. Breaking Bad for example, when I first saw the show I was living at home with amc on our tv, saw the first episode and didn't really like it. 2 years later when I was in college, without cable, me and my buddies were in the dorm rooms watching tv off websites and we started watching it I thought it was unbelievable, I bought the first 3 seasons after that.

The point is, I have no problem buying movies, tv shows, and music, I just prefer to have my own opinion about them before I've purchased them, if that means I download them to get it, so be it, I can live with it.

I still go to the theater, not as much as I did 10 years ago, but I'm sure if I was 12 again, spending my parents money, I'd be all over all the 3d movies, childrens movies, and remakes of everything. But very little that comes to theaters in my town actually interests me enough to see it (for instance the 6 movies we have right now are Iron Man 3 2d, Iron Man 3 3d, Star Trek 2d, Star Trek 3d, Great Gatsby 2d, Great Gatsby 3d). That's pretty much how my town is, 3 movies as well as the 3d counterparts to take up all 6 screens.

as a side note I do plan to see Star Trek in theaters this week

[karaddin]

Robin I think you would be interested in some of the discussion in the book Remix: Making Art and Commerce Thrive in the Hybrid Economy by Lawrence Lessig. He is an advocate for reducing IP protections and part of the rationale that he uses is that it's damaging to society to raise a generation who see nothing wrong with breaking a certain law - if the prevailing attitude of the society is that such a thing shouldn't be against the law, then the law should be changed to reflect that. Teaching people it's ok to break the law could lead to further consequences down the track, and you aren't gonna change the culture that downloading things is OK.

Now on the specific discussion of GoT related things, I think it's worth noting that the HBO Programming President views piracy of GoT as contributing to it's financial success, a view that I have seen expressed by some music artists as well. If the piracy expands your audience, and the larger audience goes on to buy your merchandise, be it DVD sales or t-shirts etc, then piracy can have a net positive effect on the property and as HBO's most profitable property whilst being the most pirated show in the world I think you can make a pretty good case for this being true for GoT.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Everyone keeps referring to morality. What about legality? Isn't that nothing but a codification of morality, written by those chosen to represent society?

Law has nothing to do with morality. Law is law because the appropriate authorities say it's law. Nothing more.

And sologin is exactly right: downloading isn't theft.

[Madfunkymonkey]

To answer the OP's question. If you are a Conservative then no. If you are a Liberal then yes.

[Lord Lymond Lychester]

Now on the specific discussion of GoT related things, I think it's worth noting that the HBO Programming President views piracy of GoT as contributing to it's financial success, a view that I have seen expressed by some music artists as well. If the piracy expands your audience, and the larger audience goes on to buy your merchandise, be it DVD sales or t-shirts etc, then piracy can have a net positive effect on the property and as HBO's most profitable property whilst being the most pirated show in the world I think you can make a pretty good case for this being true for GoT.

This is kind of what I'm saying, downloading, for me at least, has opened me up to purchasing many more shows and movies I otherwise wouldn't have watched. It's given me more interest in different genres that I otherwise wouldn't have wanted to spend my money on.

I started watching game of thrones through downloading. After the first season I decided to buy the books and read those. After I read the books I bought the Lands of Ice and Fire, on top of that I lent out the first book to all my friends to get them hooked and they'd buy their own.

Again I'm not saying go out and download everything and never spend another cent on entertainment, just defending my use of downloading.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Why ask a question when you already made up your mind? Kinda dishonest, no?

Is it improper to ask a question on a subject you have an opinion about? Wouldn't one have to live in a vacuum for that to be possible?

Maybe there is a better way to ask this question. Is it ever justifiable to violate the law with regard to protected material (trademark, copyright and similar)?

[Aemon Stark]

In the days of Napster I downloaded a lot of music. I also bought a lot of music and still do (on CD no less!).

But I do "steal" insofar as I download movies and TV show from time-to-time. I'm not sure there's much moral consequence to this, though it is unquestionably illegal. On the other hand, while I do download GoT, I do so mainly because it is impossible to subscribe to HBO without spending another $20 for movie channels I don't want. I own the blu-rays/DVDs of both seasons 1 and 2 though. Likewise, I'll frequently download episodes of broadcast TV shows that I happen to miss.

I'm not sure that's really stealing. I already pay for my cable, and acquiring an episode of a show on "free" TV isn't materially different from taping/PVRing it. I did download season 5 of Breaking Bad, but that's because I missed the first half when it originally aired. The rest I watched on Netflix.

[Sixshells]

That is the best argument I've heard in favor of strict DRM.

I don't see how it's about DRM or an argument in favour of those.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte]

I'm already paying 80$ a month for a 4 Mbps unlimited download Internet scheme, I don't want to pay for digital downloads as well.. So yes I support online piracy, paying for our Internet connection should be enough.

[The Marquis de Leech]

To answer the OP's question. If you are a Conservative then no. If you are a Liberal then yes.

Assuming you mean liberal in the US sense of the term, how to liberals condone stealing? And don't say taxation.

[delete this account pls]

While you guys were arguing I stole all your cars.

[karaddin]

Well I don't have a car so there!