From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XX

[Mladen]

Sorry Mladen, I did not mean to infer that it was your view, just that the question you gave as an example is the wrong one to ask. :)

Unfortunately I think the show is doing a lot to fan the flames here as it has divorced itself a lot from the novels when it comes to Tyrion and added a couple of things that are downright illogical. It makes it harder for readers to see what's in the novels as opposed to a mixture of novels and show. To show watchers, it must be a complete mystery why Sansa doesn't fall for Tyrion, as opposed to novel readers who while tricked by Tyrion's POV into believing his self justifications, still stand a better chance at seeing Sansa's POV of things.

There is also the line of thought that because Tyrion is "good" he has somehow deserved love and it must be given to him. Sansa should see reason because Tyrion is "good", but as we know from real life, attraction and love are their own beasts and don't necessarily follow the rules of logic as the heart chooses what it wants and we can't really do a lot about it.

Oh, no need for apologies, just to make sure we are on the same page here. I know it's wrong question to ask, but the question is asked and we have to answer it as best as we can. And I think, we have all been answering on that question often in the past, especially during TV season.

I will digress a bit with TV influence that has messed with people's readings. Basically, this is not how I imagined reading. TV, and I agree 100% with you, can not be used as a compas to any storyarc in the books. But with many people refering to scenes as if they came from the books. I had a discussion with a member about the stool at their wedding, and he said that Sansa was really unkind for not bending the knee in the books. It needed me like a 15 minutes to understand what he's talking about, and then it hit me. People are really incorporating those scenes in their reading experience. And as much as show served in populizing the series, it certainly made the readers less careful about reading.

Also, there is that POV confusion we sometimes get into. We know what Tyrion thinks, we know what Sansa thinks, but the problem is neither of them knows what the other thinks. And with two person closeted as they are to each other, it's ridiculuous to think they would ever find out what the other truly feels. Basically, they are in situation that makes them incapable of that. Just like Tyrion thinks Sansa wants Joffrey despite everything, Sansa doesn't see him more than a kinder version of Lannister captor. I also think that this is not about Sansa's ability to see who Tyrion is, it's just about the lack of will. For she proved she can see people as who they are, before and after this marriage.

[a free shadow]

Tyrion thinks Sansa wants Joffrey despite everything

I got here only on a quick trip to explore the unknown parts of the forums and I am sorry if I am hijcking in some form. But is the statement above coming directly from the books? I would like to find it for myself, if you could direct me.

[Mladen]

I got here only on a quick trip to explore the unknown parts of the forums and I am sorry if I am hijcking in some form. But is the statement above coming directly from the books? I would like to find it for myself, if you could direct me.

Here's quote

Does she wish it were her in Margaery’s place? Tyrion frowned. Even a child should have better sense.

ASOS, Tyrion's POV - Purple wedding feast chapter

[David Selig]

I got here only on a quick trip to explore the unknown parts of the forums and I am sorry if I am hijcking in some form. But is the statement above coming directly from the books? I would like to find it for myself, if you could direct me.

I think what is meant is this passage during Joffrey's wedding:

"Does she wish it were her in Margaery’s place? Tyrion frowned. Even a child should have better sense."

[a free shadow]

Thank you Mladen and David.

[brashcandy]

As for Sansa, this marriage brought a great new deal of suffering, but I wouldn't go that far to say she through it understood her powerlessness as a woman better. She was well aware she was powerless when Dontos revealed her entire Willas plan, and even before when she realized she will be held hostage even after her engagements to Joffrey are broken off.

No, it's not until Sansa marries Tyrion that she truly grasps what it means to be in a marriage and have no desire for one's husband, and to have to contend with being used as a pawn in people's schemes via marriages. Before that she is still open to the idea of marrying Willas Tyrell, and making him forget about Winterfell and come to love her (see also her reactions to Cersei's revelations). After the marriage to Tyrion she is no longer willing to compromise on such conditions. She now understands why these situations are so oppressive and knows that as heir to Winterfell there's an inherent likelihood that people are only interested in that claim.

For Sansa, it was just icing of very tragic cake Lannisters served her while she is in KL. Sans weddind and bedding, who became quite important moment for Sansa, and her ''positioning as Stark'' once again through subtle ways, I think that the marriage was for her yet another trial she had to endure.

The marriage to Tyrion was actually quite exceptional in terms of its impact on Sansa - both personally and politically - as Lyanna has noted in her essays. It stripped her of the dream of marriage to a man she could come to love; isolated and silenced her even further as a hostage in the Red Keep; and resulted in profound disillusionment and misery, compounded of course by the news of the Red Wedding. As we've noted before, it's part of Tywin's "Rains of Castamere" on the Starks, and as he turned a wedding feast into a bloodbath, he meant to do the same with Sansa's body - to be subjugated and defiled (we know how Tywin views Tyrion) and used as the instrument for Lannister power in the North.

[Elba the Intoner]

Hi everyone. Just popping in to say that I caught up on the essays and wanted to congratulate you all on a great job. I don't have much to add because by this point you have covered it all, but they were all very good reads going all the way back to Redviper9 and Redriver's essays. Mahaut your essay on the importance of horses to a knight reminded me of that line from Richard III, "A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse." And Lyanna thanks for putting together so succinctly the analysis of the Tyrion - Sansa marriage and why it was doomed. I too think it will be a great resource to have in the future. Oh and Old Growth I liked your song selection. :)

[Mladen]

The marriage to Tyrion was actually quite exceptional in terms of its impact on Sansa - both personally and politically - as Lyanna has noted in her essays. It stripped her of the dream of marriage to a man she could come to love; isolated and silenced her even further as a hostage in the Red Keep; and resulted in profound disillusionment and misery, compounded of course by the news of the Red Wedding. As we've noted before, it's part of Tywin's "Rains of Castamere" on the Starks, and as he turned a wedding feast into a bloodbath, he meant to do the same with Sansa's body - to be subjugated and defiled (we know how Tywin views Tyrion) and used as the instrument for Lannister power in the North.

In some way, the isolation was already inforced since the day her father died. I do get understand that Tywin's plans for Sansa was Castamereing Starks, but I think that her marriage brought great deal of sufferings that not necessarily made her wiser. I mean, a lot of life lessons Sansa learnt between the time her father's execution and her wedding. This was more like the last lesson she was taught by Lannisters.

[greensleeves]

Also, if you lovely people are interested in continuing the fan discussions in RL, the thread for LonCon 2014 is now up! If you are already a member, add your name to the list of attendees. :)

Hey now! What about LoneStarCon? That's pretty close to me so I'll probably go for a couple of days.

Hence when we are faced with the Tyrion - Sansa marriage, Tyrion wishes for it to work, he yearns for love, and he is attracted to Sansa - we automatically assume, based on cultural conditioning, that is SHOULD work. After all, that is how the tropes work. They tell us it ought to work, that Tyrion, as he is by many seen as a hero character and here is in a marriage to a pretty girl, then if she can't love him as the damsel in distress ought to do the male hero, why Sansa is the one in the wrong. She is then the one who needs to "get over herself" as Sansa is the trope breaker.

So in short, Tyrion, when he desires to be loved and wishes the marriage to work, follows the trope; while Sansa breaks it by not automatically meeting the hero's demand when she does not want him.

Of course, as critical readers, we can then discern that Sansa as an autonomous character has no reason to love Tyrion, since he is a member of the enemy clan, he's ugly and he agreed to marry her knowing full well she wasn't willing. These three things cannot be outdone by his acts of kindness towards her as they are huge, life changing factors that helped destroy her life.

In the past few years I've become *extremely* annoyed with that trope; It ruins perfectly good movies for me. You did a good job of articulating why. Sansa being the trope-breaker is one of the many things that makes her an awesome character.

[Fire Eater]

I have a theory on what will be the light that sets the fuse on Sansa's decision to off LF.

LF will still be marrying Sansa to Harry the Heir, but he will be loath to giver her up. His jealousy will result in him drinking too much wine. Sansa will be asleep in bed, and she will feel someone crawling onto her bed and thinks it's SW, but she hears LF's voice and finds him naked on her bed. Her initial reaction will be fear and shock as LF attempts to rape her, but then he says something that sets off a trigger in her. As a result of drinking too much wine and with his guard and good sense significantly lowered; something along the lines of "I will take your maidenhead just like I had Joffrey take your father's head." When Sansa hears that, that will set off a trigger, and result in her going into full she-wolf mode, likely kicking LF in groin and driving him off.

[DrunkSister]

Fire Eater,

I am going to have nightmares. :ack:

[Kittykatknits]

I have a theory on what will be the light that sets the fuse on Sansa's decision to off LF.

LF will still be marrying Sansa to Harry the Heir, but he will be loath to giver her up. His jealousy will result in him drinking too much wine. Sansa will be asleep in bed, and she will feel someone crawling onto her bed and thinks it's SW, but she hears LF's voice and finds him naked on her bed. Her initial reaction will be fear and shock as LF attempts to rape her, but then he says something that sets off a trigger in her. As a result of drinking too much wine and with his guard and good sense significantly lowered; something along the lines of "I will take your maidenhead just like I had Joffrey take your father's head." When Sansa hears that, that will set off a trigger, and result in her going into full she-wolf mode, likely kicking LF in groin and driving him off.

Can I ask what the foreshadowing for this is?

[Fire Eater]

Can I ask what the foreshadowing for this is?

Wind and wave had the Titan’s Daughter hard in hand now, driving her swiftly toward the channel. Her double bank of oars stroked smoothly, lashing the sea to white foam as the Titan’s shadow fell upon them. For a moment it seemed as though they must surely smash up against the stones beneath his legs.

Sansa is posing as LF's daughter, whose sigil is the Titan of Braavos, and the stones beneath the legs need no further explanation. They went past, and so Sansa will avoid being raped by LF.

[Summerqueen]

Wind and wave had the Titan’s Daughter hard in hand now, driving her swiftly toward the channel. Her double bank of oars stroked smoothly, lashing the sea to white foam as the Titan’s shadow fell upon them. For a moment it seemed as though they must surely smash up against the stones beneath his legs.

Sansa is posing as LF's daughter, whose sigil is the Titan of Braavos, and the stones between the legs need no further explanation. They went past, and so Sansa will avoid being raped by LF.

Interesting take. It could simply suggest that passing as "the titan's daughter" will be a difficult road to traverse, having the potential to get her killed (it's not the stones between his legs, after all, but the ones beneath them).

[Milady of York]

What I don’t see is how you can logically expand a mere symbolical interpretation of a ship passing under the Titan’s legs to outlining just how exactly that hypothetical rape scenario would unfold, to the point of stating with precision how, and when, and where, and at what time it will happen, plus the exact outcome. Where in the passage you’ve posted is there something that indicates Littlefinger will be crawling on Alayne’s bed like Sweetrobin does, after she accepts another marriage for political reasons (which she unequivocally doesn’t want), and will take a maidenhead he never cared about in the first place, since he was aware that her marriage to Tyrion could realistically mean she wouldn’t be a virgin when he’d kidnap her? Honestly, this reads like plain overreaching.

That’s not to say Littlefinger doesn’t desire Sansa sexually, but the reason he’s behaving like he is, little by little forcing kisses and caresses on her, is because he’s grooming her to respond to him and come to him willingly. Groomers of this type don’t usually rape by force, they might not even consider what they are doing as rape but as seduction, because that the child or girl is compliant is crucial to them. That’s the whole point of grooming: groomers don’t resort to physical force to have sex with their victims, because the thrill is in the process, the cognitive conditioning process, to which sexual intercourse is just the logical ending. Only if they really desire sex with that victim in particular they might attempt at using force, but only if pushed off the cliff by something really significant, something perceived as threatening, such as if and when the grooming hasn’t gone as planned.

[Fire Eater]

What I don’t see is how you can logically expand a mere symbolical interpretation of a ship passing under the Titan’s legs to outlining just how exactly that hypothetical rape scenario would unfold, to the point of stating with precision how, and when, and where, and at what time it will happen, plus the exact outcome. Where in the passage you’ve posted is there something that indicates Littlefinger will be crawling on Alayne’s bed like Sweetrobin does, after she accepts another marriage for political reasons (which she unequivocally doesn’t want), and will take a maidenhead he never cared about in the first place, since he was aware that her marriage to Tyrion could realistically mean she wouldn’t be a virgin when he’d kidnap her? Honestly, this reads like plain overreaching.

That’s not to say Littlefinger doesn’t desire Sansa sexually, but the reason he’s behaving like he is, little by little forcing kisses and caresses on her, is because he’s grooming her to respond to him and come to him willingly. Groomers of this type don’t usually rape by force, they might not even consider what they are doing as rape but as seduction, because that the child or girl is compliant is crucial to them. That’s the whole point of grooming: groomers don’t resort to physical force to have sex with their victims, because the thrill is in the process, the cognitive conditioning process, to which sexual intercourse is just the logical ending. Only if they really desire sex with that victim in particular they might attempt at using force, but only if pushed off the cliff by something really significant, something perceived as threatening, such as if and when the grooming hasn’t gone as planned.

Tough crowd, LF would be drunk and have grown impatient. He may want to take her maidenhead knowing she still has it. You don't have to be so defensive, no offense, it's not exactly something I'm rooting for just an idea of what might happen.

[brashcandy]

Interesting take. It could simply suggest that passing as "the titan's daughter" will be a difficult road to traverse, having the potential to get her killed (it's not the stones between his legs, after all, but the ones beneath them).

I like this. Of course we also hear that the Titan feeds on the flesh of juicy highborn girls, which certainly corresponds to the sexual threat LF poses, but I think that passage represents a general danger associated with being the Titan's daughter. The Titan's Shadow falling upon them could suggest a pursuit of some kind, or that Sansa will have to confront LF head on, 'go through him' as it were, to reach safety.

@FE - I think the problem with your theory was that it read more like a fanfiction scenario. As Milady noted, LF has so far followed the groomer pattern of behaviour, and whilst it's not impossible that he could resort to force, it's unlikely without some dramatic rupture in his plans. I also have to stress that his behaviour plays to Sansa's strengths, as she is quite mentally tough and able to arm herself in courtesy and adopt a mask that can lull people into a false sense of security or cause them to underestimate her. Sansa going into 'she-wolf' mode will likely not have anything to do with personally applying physical force - a kick to the groin isn't going to deter most determined rapists - but should involve using exactly those hidden strengths that LF does not expect and cannot detect.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Hence when we are faced with the Tyrion - Sansa marriage, Tyrion wishes for it to work, he yearns for love, and he is attracted to Sansa - we automatically assume, based on cultural conditioning, that is SHOULD work. After all, that is how the tropes work. They tell us it ought to work, that Tyrion, as he is by many seen as a hero character and here is in a marriage to a pretty girl, then if she can't love him as the damsel in distress ought to do the male hero, why Sansa is the one in the wrong. She is then the one who needs to "get over herself" as Sansa is the trope breaker.

So in short, Tyrion, when he desires to be loved and wishes the marriage to work, follows the trope; while Sansa breaks it by not automatically meeting the hero's demand when she does not want him.

Of course, as critical readers, we can then discern that Sansa as an autonomous character has no reason to love Tyrion, since he is a member of the enemy clan, he's ugly and he agreed to marry her knowing full well she wasn't willing. These three things cannot be outdone by his acts of kindness towards her as they are huge, life changing factors that helped destroy her life.

The Tyrion-Sansa marriage was doomed to failure, as the two of them had nothing in common. They never even had a conversation that could be considered normal, and it is very hard to conceive of any normal conversation they could have had. I agree that Tyrion would have liked the marriage to work, given some time, and that he was deceiving himself that it ever could.

One major factor has been left out in the preceding analyses, however. Sansa had no incentive whatsoever to try to make the marriage work because she knew she was getting out. The escape was planned and scheduled. Bye bye, buy bonds. All she had to do was stonewall until Joff and Marg's wedding. (She does not think of this in her marriage POV chapter, and I think that is in character. After that, she only has one POV until the escape, on the morning of Joff's wedding. She doesn't mention the escape in that chapter, but that is a case of GRRM fooling the readers.)

Of course, this does not affect her on her wedding day. On that day, she is suffering a personal disaster. The moment Tyrion agrees to delay consummation until she agrees to it, however, her situation changes a great deal; Sansa is in pretty decent shape. After all, what other husband that Tywin Lannister might inflict upon her would agree to that? The number of names on that list would be small. And how many of those could protect her from Joffery? Marriage to Tyrion was the only thing that got Sansa out of King's Landing with her maidenhead intact, not carrying a Lannister child or Joff's bastard in her belly.

When Sansa and Tyrion have awkward relations, Sansa is doing more than employing courtesy armor. She is playing her part in a counterplot. Any analysis that overlooks that is flawed.

[Fire Eater]

whilst it's not impossible that he could resort to force, it's unlikely without some dramatic rupture in his plans.

Like Rickon being publicly revealed as alive, meaning LF can't use Sansa to claim WF? I never said it only be a kick in the groin, but a few other actions, like with the kick being enough to give her time to leave the room to the bed of Randa where she is safer.

It could be that the attempted rape never happens like you said, but I think of a comparison to Emperor Palpatine who tries to manipulate Luke into joining the dark side, but when it seems almost certain and Luke refuses, the Emperor changes from his usual mastermind-like demeanor and tries to kill Luke with Force lightning.

LF, like Palpatine, may be a cunning and talented mastermind, but take that away and he is just a feral beast as LF never took rejection well, and he will be angry when Sansa refuses his further advances and he fails to manipulate her any further.

ETA: GRRM said there was going to be a controversial Sansa chapter.

[brashcandy]

Like Rickon being publicly revealed as alive, meaning LF can't use Sansa to claim WF?

I don't think that would do it, no. Rickon alive would only mean that LF has to think of another plan and we know the man thrives on chaos. I'd say it'd be something personal- something that gets to the heart of his obsession with Sansa and having her as Cat-replacement: the revelation/appearance of a romantic rival.

LF, like Palpatine, may be a cunning and talented mastermind, but take that away and he is just a feral beast as LF never took rejection well, and he will be angry when Sansa refuses his further advances and he fails to manipulate her any further.

Oh I'm not disputing that; my point is that so far Sansa understands how to placate the beast and knows the peril she is in. This is why we have 'lies and arbor gold' and why she quickly changes from saying she doesn't want to get married again to coming up with a legitimate reason why it can't happen. Sansa is still learning, but I think LF has met his match in a way that won't bring him any pleasure.