Guest right breach case:the Tyrells

[Mrs.Grumpy]

lol no. There was no kinslaying.

But then again, it was similiar to Aerys/Jaime situtaion.

We should thank them for doing that...

[WidlingWarrior]

...The way it reads, the Tyrells seem as much hosts as the Lannisters. I know they made a big deal about the IT paying for it, but the Tyrells and Lannisters were jointly hosting the bajillions of people they invited to the royal wedding as a show of political power and propaganda visuals....

^this

I'm pretty sure the money put up for the wedding was provided by both the Tyrells and Lannisters. Also some of the food itself was provided by the Tyrells. It can be perceived that the Lannisters and Tyrells are co-hosts of the wedding. Unlike the Red Wedding where the Freys provided everything.

Guest Rights typically dictate what happens between guests and hosts. There doesn't appear to be any "rules" for co-hosts interactions and guests interactions with each other.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Well, I have the impression that yes, it was somehow guest right breach. Maybe not as bad as a host killing the guest, but anyway...

It's not nearly as bad as the Red Wedding. I'm not saying that because they killed Joffrey and Roose Bolton our beloved Young Wolf (though that's certainly important).

The fact that the Freys did that openly opens a precedent for everyone else. Every one is aware that a king must be careful because he may be poisoned. Nobody knows it was the Tyrells, but it doesn't matter. Shit like that happens.

But what the Freys did is another matter. If that becomes normal and they get away with it, that whole society is on the verge of collapse and permanent war, because no Lord will visit someone he doesn't trust 100%.

From a more general moral judgement it may be the same. Or not because they had good reason. But if you think about the specific function guest right has in that society, what the Freys did is much worse.

[I am a bastard's bastard]

no one has any suspiscion it was them so he cant really make a big deal about it

and the freys put an end to guest right at the red wedding.

[Barty]

You guys are missing a point - the host has to give the guest his own bread and salt - Joff does not. KL has no bread or salt when the Tyrells come in. It has repeatedly been said that the Tyrells fed KL after they joined the Lannisters. So basically the Tyrells have been eating their own bread and salt all this time and hence are not bound by guest right.

[mankytoes]

I'd call it co-host killing co-host- technically "allowed"?

[Woel]

I'd call it co-host killing co-host- technically "allowed"?

Thou shalt not slay thy guest, nor thy host, but thou art free to slay thy co-host.

- Traditional Westerosi saying

[Cruella]

I find the outrageousness of RW a slightly redeeming quality, it was terryfying and rules-defying. If you're gonna kill someone, you should accept that there is no nice way to kill them, it's better to do it in a way that throws gauntlet to the gods themselves than finding some sly way to "legally" kill them. Rather than "better" perhap I should say it has more of my respect. Murder is not acceptable, and should not be dressed up as such. If you do something terrible, own the terribleness.

Jaime could tie up Aerys, mute him, and let him for rebels for execution. It would be same (justified) murder, but in cowardly way. Instead he spit on his oaths and made public statement. You might as well do it, IMO, if you kill at all, rather than play tricks. If you're not willing to look man in the eye, maybe you shouldn't execute him, and if you're not willing to break sacred laws themselves to kill someone, maybe you shouldn't do it in a first place.

A crime itself - RW - was cowardly, yet breaking guest right in itself was brave.

Of course, Freys couldn't bear the weight of their deed and soon were searching for lame "justifications" - Robb attacked us, etc. Sartre would lecture them on importance of owning your crime.

I'm thinking "Flies" of course.

[Thendel]

You guys are missing a point - the host has to give the guest his own bread and salt - Joff does not. KL has no bread or salt when the Tyrells come in. It has repeatedly been said that the Tyrells fed KL after they joined the Lannisters. So basically the Tyrells have been eating their own bread and salt all this time and hence are not bound by guest right.

But guest right goes both ways - which has been stated numerous times in this thread by now - so even if we are supposing that all the food at the wedding was provided by the Tyrells only, Joffrey still ate of it. No matter which way you spin it, Lannisters and Tyrells were hosting the feast together, and the argument that co-host interactions are not included as guest right is an outrageous one.

[HouseHarrison]

Olenna and Margery are the only Tyrells aware of the plot (Mace certainly out of the loop) and they really don't give two shits. And really expecting Littlefinger to follow Westerosi rules of honor means one doesn't understand how that guy operates.

[mrunderhill]

Olenna and Margery are the only Tyrells aware of the plot (Mace certainly out of the loop) and they really don't give two shits. And really expecting Littlefinger to follow Westerosi rules of honor means one doesn't understand how that guy operates.

This is an assumption. Olenna and Garlan seem to have been aware. As for Margaery I am sure she was aware and involved, but not sure if she agreed with the plan. Hard to judge how much of her actions are genuine and how much are fake. Out of everyone there she seems genuinely upset, but she may just be a brilliant actor. Mace is his usual foolish self, so I cannot see him being involved.

Margaery the first to realise what is going on, she knows too early. Clearly involved and was the one, who took Joffrey to his seat.

He's choking," Queen Margaery gasped.

Her grandmother moved to her side. "Help the poor boy!" the Queen of Thorns screeched, in a voice ten times her size. "Dolts! Will you all stand about gaping? Help your king!"

Reacts too fast and too assertively. Quite frankly most people would be shocked.

Next on the scene is Garlan and Kettleback, both of them I would imagine might be involved.

Ser Garlan shoved Tyrion aside and began to pound Joffrey on the back. Ser Osmund Kettleblack ripped open the king's collar. A fearful high thin sound emerged from the boy's throat, the sound of a man trying to suck a river through a reed; then it stopped, and that was more terrible still.

What makes me unsure on Margaery's desire to participate is this line.

Margaery Tyrell was weeping in her grandmother's arms as the old lady said, "Be brave, be brave."

Joffrey was not dead at this point, so what did she have to be brave about?

[A Thousand Lives]

It was kinslaying, after they were wed.

This was not kinslaying, the marriage was never consummated, thank god. I do agree though that they breached the guest's right, but it's not going to matter unless someone finds some way to accuse them of it with evidence. It'd be amazing if it comes out though and someone gets burned for this crime.

[Nyrhex]

This was not kinslaying, the marriage was never consummated, thank god. I do agree though that they breached the guest's right, but it's not going to matter unless someone finds some way to accuse them of it with evidence. It'd be amazing if it comes out though and someone gets burned for this crime.

My point was that, when you ignore the fact that they are not technically guests (they are the part of the ruling elite and thier power allows the continued rule of the Lannisters), Joff and Marg are not technically wed yet, and that Joffrey is not technically king, all violations should seem like seriouse offences against gods and king.

Garlan's hand was the hand that slipped the poisen, but I think he cared little what his action means in the eyes of the law. He was thinking of his little sister. The technicality that this is his last chance before the bedding played no part. Joffrey drinking more then he should at the wedding of the century, eating a pie too fast and choking to death would have seemed alot more likely then Joffrey being poisened at any other time.

[ckal]

What makes me unsure on Margaery's desire to participate is this line.

Margaery Tyrell was weeping in her grandmother's arms as the old lady said, "Be brave, be brave."

Joffrey was not dead at this point, so what did she have to be brave about?

Let's say she knew about it. That would be called 'acting'.

[Master Forel's Fro]

This was not kinslaying, the marriage was never consummated, thank god. I do agree though that they breached the guest's right, but it's not going to matter unless someone finds some way to accuse them of it with evidence. It'd be amazing if it comes out though and someone gets burned for this crime.

That's interesting so if a marriage isn't consummated it means the couple aren't married? Does that mean sansa is single and free to marry harry?

I think varys knows and won't reveal till it suits him, tyrells replacing the lannisters on the throne and as a powerful family isn't his goal. He'll lead them to a false sense of security before he pulls the rug out.

[Ser Greg of House House]

That's interesting so if a marriage isn't consummated it means the couple aren't married? Does that mean sansa is single and free to marry harry?

I think varys knows and won't reveal till it suits him, tyrells replacing the lannisters on the throne and as a powerful family isn't his goal. He'll lead them to a false sense of security before he pulls the rug out.

Yes. It's apparently much easier to annul a wedding if it's not consumated.

[Barty]

But guest right goes both ways - which has been stated numerous times in this thread by now - so even if we are supposing that all the food at the wedding was provided by the Tyrells only, Joffrey still ate of it. No matter which way you spin it, Lannisters and Tyrells were hosting the feast together, and the argument that co-host interactions are not included as guest right is an outrageous one.

Why would Tyrells be hosting the wedding?? This is a Lannister seat of power and they Tyrells are guests.

[Waylin Stark]

You can argue about it all you want, but I think that what they did was more or less a violation of the guest right.

It's the fact that they did it discreetly (not by slaughtering everybody at the feast), and that they had scapegoats (Sansa and Tyrion), that they've gotten away with it.

And if it comes to killing Joffrey, I doubt Olenna, Garlan or Margaery would think twice about violating the guest right. They're simply too badass to be bothered by its rules and consequences.

OMG. HOLD ON A MINUTE.

Didn't Mace Tyrell gift Joffrey the chalice on his wedding morning???

Isn't it required for a host to gift his guest something before the guest right is ended? Like Manderly and the 3 Freys?

I know it's the other way round in this case, but who knows, maybe the Tyrells consider that good enough so that they do not feel guilty.

Or maybe they just don't give a damn. I think that's it.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Margaery is queen of mummers :cool4:

[mrunderhill]

Let's say she knew about it. That would be called 'acting'.

I agree she knew about it, but it seems like Olenna was telling genuinely giving her courage about it. "Be Brave" is not the kind of thing I would say to someone, who had just seen a husband die horribly. It is the kind of thing, I would say to someone, who has just carried out a dangerous crime and was scared.