Why do Aegon and the Dornish appear so late in the plot?

[Stubby]

[MOD]

To the extent that this topic talks about a storyline from the books, please continue.

To the extent that this topic talks about show issues, take it to the show threads.

Finally, if you think a post breaches forum rules, please use the report function.

[/MOD]

[Florina Laufeyson]

When you introduce a new main characters out of nowhere but Hints and ForeShadowing.... It is all well and cool for us on the forum who combined 100000 brains to find every little hints, but the normal reader is kind of lost.

I wouldnt necessarily say so. I knew Dorne had to be a thing some time when reading. Since i missed a lot of details when reading, id say im a relatively normal reader. When Aegon showed up, i was all "whoa." But i really figured that hes probably not THE Aegon because that just seems really weird for the actual heir to just show up out of nowhere. Its called reading comprehension. Id hope most people have this skill....

Seems i was wrong though...

[Techelles]

So basically you're pretty much just ignoring the signs and foreshadowing?

Ok, then.

I'd expect nothing less.

[TheMysteriousOne]

When you introduce a new main characters out of nowhere but Hints and ForeShadowing.... It is all well and cool for us on the forum who combined 100000 brains to find every little hints, but the normal reader is kind of lost.

I'm pretty sure normal readers should be able to understand at least that there was going to be an extra Targaryen, especially with the help of huge hints like the mummer's dragon and the dragon sign. Before I joined the forum (is that the criteria for being a 'normal' reader?), I understood those signs and interpreted them differently but I didn't think that Aegon was fake until I joined the forum, at least.

[TheBlackViper]

The Dornish have been mentioned many times throughout the first books. Little name drops and what not. Nothing important, but enough to make you realize there is still a part of Westeros you haven't met yet. If you completely dismissed it and forgot about them completely, then Doran has done his job.

It still isn't the right time to make a move apparently...

Could he not have kept them out the plot longer if this was Martins reasoning?

Wasn't that what he was planning to do with the five-year-gap plan? I'm glad he didn't.

[Rheagar Prime]

Better late than never i always say. The show viewers will love the dornish like the book fans. Why does everyone always use the aegon showed up late excuse OMG are we forgetting it was to be 3 books, but martin wanted to be JK and not Tolken and write 7. Aegon showed up at the right time for me would have been better in the 4 book, but the dornish story and the aftermath of the red wedding and WO5K had to take the fore front.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Better late than never i always say. The show viewers will love the dornish like the book fans. Why does everyone always use the aegon showed up late excuse OMG are we forgetting it was to be 3 books, but martin wanted to be JK and not Tolken and write 7. Aegon showed up at the right time for me would have been better in the 4 book, but the dornish story and the aftermath of the red wedding and WO5K had to take the fore front.

I still lol whenever Harry Potter is referenced on any fantasy literature forum.

[Yukle]

I still lol whenever Harry Potter is referenced on any fantasy literature forum.

There's nothing wrong with Harry Potter. Thinking that liking one series means you must hate another leaves you with little to read. The more annoying point of view is the mysteriously huge number of people who have been reading the books since before they were well known - in some cases people are such big fans they seem to have been following the series before it was even written; anticipating GRRM's upcoming fantasy trilogy. :P

[The Mountain That Posts]

There's nothing wrong with Harry Potter. Thinking that liking one series means you must hate another leaves you with little to read. The more annoying point of view is the mysteriously huge number of people who have been reading the books since before they were well known - in some cases people are such big fans they seem to have been following the series before it was even written; anticipating GRRM's upcoming fantasy trilogy. :P

I just think it's hilarious that, no matter what it is, if it's a book it'll be compared to Harry Potter. It can be any genre that isn't like horror or a memoir, and it'll be compared to harry potter. That's what I meant. :P

[Yukle]

I just think it's hilarious that, no matter what it is, if it's a book it'll be compared to Harry Potter. It can be any genre that isn't like horror or a memoir, and it'll be compared to harry potter. That's what I meant. :P

Oh yeah, that's true. It's probably because it's just the first thing that comes to mind. Sort of like how at some stage someone arguing on this thread is going to call someone else Hitler.

Back on topic, though, I think that Aegon's story is just a minor plot, and so it was a waste of time mentioning it earlier. It'll be resolved in less time than the other plots and having it too early would just pad it out.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Its not half way. Martin claims this is a 7 book series. They come in during books 4 and 5; the second third.

The Emperor is a villain and even then Vadar is the true nemesis who was there from the start. What Martin does is introduce main heroes of central importance to the plot when he is already deep into the story. It would be like if in Return of the Jedi they suddenly introduced the Mandalorian clans and had to explain how big n awesome this group was even though they received next to no mention before save seeing Boba Fett.

Aegon, is a Targaryen claiment to the Iron Throne and in a position (unlike Dany) to have a massive impact on the South. Again, the plot will revolve around him in Winds for this reason. having him abruptly "introduced" (honestly Martin wastes my time but is beyond cryptic n obtuse about characterizing him) is just bad.

Why do all the major players have to be announced in the first 2 books? Remember this is supposed to be realistic, and as the Wars of the Roses progressed new houses joined the fight, allies abroad, etc. Considering this novel is based on the English 'civil war' of the middle ages, the factional developments make sense.

[The Idiots Lantern]

Because apparently we need MORE subplots. We don't have enough of those subplots.

[RhaenysBee]

The Dornish did not appear late in the plot. They appeared in SOS and they were mentioned previously too.

Aegon however... god knows... And GRRM. And Apple Martini.

[The Dragon has three heads]

When was Varys introduced? When was Illyrio introduced? Aegon's faction was there since the third chapter.

Exactly.

As were the dornish, if you look for them.

An it's no coincidence tyrion sent them myrcella. I think he'll be the one who stitches that up for Danny.

And, it's a dwarf head in that god damn box, not the mountains.

[Ladylance]

I think the Dornish were definately a factor early on. We are told a lot about Dorne in the books, form Arya naming her Wolf Nymeria, to being told about the Young Dragon conquering Dorne, so we know Dorne is a factor, just that they haven't allied with anyone yet. Then Tyrion sends them Myracella, giving them a plausible reason to stay out of the game. Oberyn turns up in the 3rd book, which is arguably the start of the second act, and introduces the Dornish plot.

I do think, looking at the (f)Aegon threads, a false Targaryen was definately foreshaddowed, and Aegon is an obvious choice, as there weren't any "known" missing Targaryens. I think he is a very interesting choice, as he is technically ahead of Dany in the line of succession, but she has the dragons.

At this stage in the books, with the Starks scattered and divided, the Lannister/Tyrell alliance at the brink of falling apart, and Stannis having gone North, we needed someone to provoke conflict in the south. Obviously the Iron Born are doing this to some extent, but the potential (f)Aegon/Dornish Alliance will be a much more powerful force.

Also, this means Dany has more time to spend in Essos. I think her next stop will definately be Volantis, due to the foreshadowing of it being "ripe for a slave revolt". She might even go to Pentos, with the Tattered Prince, so while Dany does all of this, something interesting needs to be happening elsewhere in Westeros, this is why the Iron Born, Dornish, (f)Aegon, and Vale sub-plots were introduced.

However I do agree it is a lot to wrap up in 2 books, I think we are looking at another super-long one, or else three more books to the series.

[Rishav Banka]

However I do agree it is a lot to wrap up in 2 books, I think we are looking at another super-long one, or else three more books to the series.

I hope it wraps up in 2 books. An additional book would mean 3-4 more years.

[Lord over Seas]

I agree with the OP, mostly on Aegon's storyline.

When i read that famous Tyrion's chapter in ADWD and then saw how more and more important he was getting i felt a little cheated. I do not like how this character suddendly pops up from nowhere on a deus ex machina style, it's just so unsatisfiyng for the reader and easy for GRRM.

I mean, if at least he had traveled east to meet Dany, well that would have made some sense. He would be another pretender, traveling east with all other important characters (Quentyn, Victarion, Tyrion)

But the whole point that he travels west, starts a conquest of Westeros alone, is the rightful heir as Raeghars true son, and becoming so the most important political character in Westeros at this point annoys me.

Every plot line has been so well, slowly but consistently been delepoved up to now, and suddendly: Bam! Heir nº1 to the IT spawns from nowhere. (and remember, this is the central point of the series, the fight around the control of Westeros/ the IT)

It just makes me feel like i was reviving that f*cking child's appearences up to his anticlimatic end in ME3.

But maybe this just means that he'll disappear as fast and sudden as he has appeared. (now that would be a really mean trick to us readers)

[Twinslayer]

I don't get the premise of this thread at all. I have been waiting for Aegon to show up since Book 1, when we were told repeatedly that the baby Tywin presented to Robert was unrecognizable. There was no reason to repeat that point so many times if it was not going to be important, particularly when you contrast it with the emphasis on the practice of displaying dead peoples' heads (e.g., Ned) to prove that they are actually dead. Then, we have Rhaegar saying Aegon was the prince who was promised in Book 2. We also have Ramsay and Theon obscuring the faces of the Miller's boys to create the fiction that Bran and Rickon are dead, just like (I think) Tywin and Gregor did with the fake Aegon, and Maester Luwin telling Osha to separate the heirs after the sack of Winterfell, just like Viserys and Aegon were separated in anticipation of the sack of King's Landing. Then in book 3 you have Oberyn showing up and putting heavy emphasis on Elia and the "death" of Aegon, making clear that this is the primary motivation for the Dornish. I don't know what more GRRM could have done to signpost the fact that Aegon would show up and press his claim.

And, he was set up to be a badass from the very beginning. He's descended from Aegon the Conqueror and the Martells, the only family the Conqueror failed to conquer. That is something even the Barratheons and the Starks can't claim, and we got that in Book 1, too.

[ser naes yennet]

Cuz the show has been doing a great job following the books since Season 1.

umm...........GREAT JOB, is a bit strong.

[ser naes yennet]

Better late than never i always say. The show viewers will love the dornish like the book fans. Why does everyone always use the aegon showed up late excuse OMG are we forgetting it was to be 3 books, but martin wanted to be JK and not Tolken and write 7. Aegon showed up at the right time for me would have been better in the 4 book, but the dornish story and the aftermath of the red wedding and WO5K had to take the fore front.

and people have to remember that books 4 & 5 run concurrently, just because we read it in book 5, doesn't mean it happened after the events of book 4. i would suggest during your next reread, that you read books 4 & 5 at the same time. there is a post somewhere on here that puts the 2 books on a more chronological order, that may make it more tolerable for you.