[potential book spoilers]did this episode just prove that...

[JuiceTonk]

Well the show has turned Jojen into deus-ex-machina personified, so basically everything he says is true with no vagueness.

I agree. Even before he got all weakened on the trek north, I always pictured Jojen as a much more grave character who was almost plagued by his visons and didn't know exactly what they meant, just that some higher power was compelling him to take Bran north.

In the show he's just way too confident for me "You just warged a human, no one can do that" How can you possibly know that Jojen???

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I agree. Even before he got all weakened on the trek north, I always pictured Jojen as a much more grave character who was almost plagued by his visons and didn't know exactly what they meant, just that some higher power was compelling him to take Bran north.

In the show he's just way too confident for me "You just warged a human, no one can do that" How can you possibly know that Jojen???

No one to my knowledge is how you can take it. But if you just saw someone perform telekenesis you'd probably think no one else can do that. Because as far as you know, no one can. This is a bit silly.

And your take on book Jojen is mostly right but he definitely seems to know too much, and we don't really know how first hand.

[7V3N]

I think it's like the 3 Dragons. Dany,Jon& Bran. The Song of Ice and Fire. Also Melisaendra believes Stannis to be Azhor Azhai and might come to believe otherwise as is implied by her seeing only Snow when she asks to see Azhor.

Double meaning. Stannis is also in a huge snowstorm.

[Lucifer Lightbringer]

Who's to say Bran won't end up on the side of the Others instead of fighting them?

[BlueDragon]

It is very clear that Tywin, although he would like to believe Tyrion is not his child -- a common reaction many fathers have when the child is less than perfect -- he knows better. I think he knew his wife well enough to know Tyrion was the real thing. He just hates the fact that Tyrion is a real Lannister.

I do not think it was bad writing in the least for Jojen to suggest that Bran is crucial to the point of being the key person to turn the tide in the war with the white walkers. In context, it is clear that Jojen is suggesting that all the other 'fighters' for the human side will be less than adequate -- in and of themselves, not that bran is going to wave a magic underground tree limb and make everything better.

please stop looking/reading every piece of evidence as a black/white statement. language doesn't work this way; myth doesn't work this way.

the once and future king means king arthur will reign again in a literal sense? i don't think so.

a better way to interpret that scene would be to say that if bran doesn't make it where he is going, he won't be able to fulfill his purpose. and i absolutely reject the idea that bran thinks he is the hero of the story. quite the contrary: he is driven by his visions which seem to him as the only way forward for HIS life, no matter what else happens in the larger world. he rarely even comments on the larger picture. he doesn't mention his family except for robb when he sends his little brother off.

bran is understandably in shock; he has lost his legs, his family and his home. and he is a teenager who is under the influence of magic. all the scenes of him underground contain a huge element of confusion as is appropriate. even jojen is despairing underground, something which makes little sense to me unless he believes he just can't physically survive what is coming.

i think D&D handled that scene very nicely.

['96Buck]

I agree. Even before he got all weakened on the trek north, I always pictured Jojen as a much more grave character who was almost plagued by his visons and didn't know exactly what they meant, just that some higher power was compelling him to take Bran north.

In the show he's just way too confident for me "You just warged a human, no one can do that" How can you possibly know that Jojen???

Children often state what they believe to be true based on their limited experiences as absolute universal truths. Adults do, too. Either way, would you expect him to say "Based on my knowedge of the powers of the Children of the Forest and what the First Men learned from them, the ability to warg a human represents approximately the 98% percentile of warging ability?"

[Casey Siren]

Huh? If i remember correctly, Tyrion asks Tywin when Tywin has ever done anything that wasnt selfish and Twyin said, "The day you were born i didnt kill you." Meaning, it WOULD have been in Tywin's best interest to murder his dwarf son, but he couldnt make himself do it because Tyrion is a true Lannister, regardless of deformity.

I didnt take this as Tywin saying Tyrion isnt his true son at all. In fact, it is the opposite. Tywin is saying the only reason why he didnt kill Tyrion as a babe was BECAUSE he is his true son. Even an unsullied should have been able to follow that dialogue.

But in the show, Twyin ends that dialog with "And raised you as my son". That is what made people wtf. Especially with all the Targaryen rumors.

[StarkofWinterfell]

But in the show, Twyin ends that dialog with "And raised you as my son". That is what made people wtf. Especially with all the Targaryen rumors.

This took me aback too. Either poor writing or he was actually saying, "as if you were my own blood."

[silentwanderer]

Who's to say Bran won't end up on the side of the Others instead of fighting them?

The books really, Bran has the blood of the First Men running through his veins, just like Jon, and now he also has the vision.

He's like Bran the Builder, only this Bran is meant to stop the White Walkers rather than to build a Wall around them.

[Greywolf2375]

The books really, Bran has the blood of the First Men running through his veins, just like Jon, and now he also has the vision.

He's like Bran the Builder, only this Bran is meant to stop the White Walkers rather than to build a Wall around them.

And the blood of Jojen running down this throat. To say he definitely isn't going to be with the Others is absolutely not a definite yet.

[BlueDragon]

Jojen may appear arrogant in the show to some, but I don't think he is. He has to battle Osha in order to keep Bran going in the right direction. I am sure that if we were to have a sit down with show Jojen and Meera and Bran, all would agree that all these visions are contingent and partial.

Tywin's dialog does not indicate he doesn't believe Tyrion is his son. He is mortally ashamed of him and would like it to be the case, but he knows it isn't and he knows that he has to raise him as his son even if he wants to reject him.

Sometimes people dig far, far too deep than is necessary.

Book and show Jojens have all my sympathies. It is incredibly hard to follow ones visions even if they aren't leading you into horrible danger. Jojen and Bran are filled with all sorts of doubts, but they know they must keep a brave and assertive face on what they must do.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I think Bran's role will be one of a guide for the PTWP/Azor Ahai, rather than the actual savior himself. I mean, considering that he will tap into the infinite knowledge of the weirwood trees and be able to communicate through them will give him great guidance skills.

[Casey Siren]

Tywin's dialog does not indicate he doesn't believe Tyrion is his son. He is mortally ashamed of him and would like it to be the case, but he knows it isn't and he knows that he has to raise him as his son even if he wants to reject him.

You have to admit that the words chosen were strange.

[Little and Less]

Hey good point Maxime - the 3 heads of the dragon? The Cripple, The Dwarf, and a Woman? (Or the Bastard) being the true Hero's of the Story? It would break the fantasy Hero type.

Hmm...interesting. What did Tyrion say back in GOT? I wish I could remember the quote about bastards and broken things...

[Yelloweyedemon]

I read in another topic that during Bran's journey north, he meets exacty twelve people... as in the twelve friends that went north with the Last Hero. I found it particularly interesting.

I don't remember something mentioned about the exact number of Bran's friends in his journey. Also I don't think he came across anyone other than Coldhands and Leaf before entering the cave.

[Ser Luke.]

The TV show proves nothing book related. End of story.

[Our Blades Are Sharp]

The TV show proves nothing book related. End of story.

I think Theon might argue that point...

[Net-Viper X]

I took the "raised you as my son" to mean he didn't cast him into exile or abandon him at an orphanage after he was born. He may have treated Tyrion like crap but he did give him full access to the family fortune and use the family armory to outfit Tyrions army of Hill Tribesman, so he clearly if however grudgingly did accept Tyrion as a true Lannister and bestow on him benefits of being "one of the family".

By contrast Ned raised Theon from the time he was a little boy and in general was much kinder to him than Tywin ever was to Tyrion, but Ned definitely did not raise Theon "as his son". Theon was always well aware that he was a captive that could be killed at any moment if Balon pulled any shit and he had no freedom to go gallivanting about the Realm blowing a fortune in "Daddy's" money.

[boojam]

Bran is The Last Hero reborn?

Jojen said that the White Walkers cannot be stopped by the NW nor by all the armies of Westeros and Sam said:"But you will stop them?"

Jojen did not answer, but it seems he believes that if Bran cannot stop them, no one can.

Well Sam stopped one of the Others.

I wonder what would happen if all the White Walkers were killed?

Or is there an infinite number of them?

Would the wights just kind of wander around aimlessly with no leaders?

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I think it's possible that, just like the flames, green dreams can be misintrepreted.