[Book Spoilers] The Ripple Effect

[quikah]

I think it will be a natural transition for Brienne to pledge her loyalty to Sansa now that Catelyn is dead. I don't think her fleeing without Brienne would be that hard to pull off, easy to lose someone in the commotion.

After the dust settles Brienne will go to find her. Jaime can easily lend his encouragement and give her the sword. It could all happen very quickly.

I don't think they can really change Stannis' story too much as there is still the giant Wildling army that needs to be dealt with.

I am all for ditching the Kingsmoot, it is kind of pointless. The only thing that needs to happen is Euron taking over and sending Victarion to Dany.

[ShigellaSand]

They could possibly put Brienne in a bit of a Dontos role. After all, she swore to see Sansa and Arya safe to their mother, but she's dead, so Aunt Lysa should be next in line, right? Brienne doesn't know how untrustworthy Littlefinger is, and Sansa mostly trusted him...

Let's say Jaime tells Brienne that with Cat dead, there's nobody to send Sansa to, and Tyrion won't hurt her, so how about Brienne stay on as Sansa's sworn sword? He'll give her Oathkeeper to defend Sansa with. She does, but it doesn't sit entirely right with her. She (or Sansa) is then approached about getting her away from the Lannisters and to her aunt. They bite. The PW happens, they run, LF takes off with Sansa. Either Brienne is persuaded that Sansa will be safe now and she should go look for Arya, or perhaps LF tries to kill Brienne and thinks he has succeeded. Either way Brienne sets off across the country on the hunt for a young Stark girl, and ends up with Lady Stoneheart, who thinks she sold out to the Lannisters by serving them in King's Landing.

[Minsc]

They could possibly put Brienne in a bit of a Dontos role. After all, she swore to see Sansa and Arya safe to their mother, but she's dead, so Aunt Lysa should be next in line, right? Brienne doesn't know how untrustworthy Littlefinger is, and Sansa mostly trusted him...

Let's say Jaime tells Brienne that with Cat dead, there's nobody to send Sansa to, and Tyrion won't hurt her, so how about Brienne stay on as Sansa's sworn sword? He'll give her Oathkeeper to defend Sansa with. She does, but it doesn't sit entirely right with her. She (or Sansa) is then approached about getting her away from the Lannisters and to her aunt. They bite. The PW happens, they run, LF takes off with Sansa. Either Brienne is persuaded that Sansa will be safe now and she should go look for Arya, or perhaps LF tries to kill Brienne and thinks he has succeeded. Either way Brienne sets off across the country on the hunt for a young Stark girl, and ends up with Lady Stoneheart, who thinks she sold out to the Lannisters by serving them in King's Landing.

Why would LF allow Brienne to go free at the risk of his own plans and safety? And why would Brienne trust Sansa with someone that attempted to kill her?

[amenotti]

I started another thread for this but realized it fits here. What do people think about Sam and Bran not having a discussion about not telling anyone about their meeting? Does this impact the storyline in any way. It seems that the Sam would have to mention it to Jon Snow in the very next episode.

[Miodrag]

I started another thread for this but realized it fits here. What do people think about Sam and Bran not having a discussion about not telling anyone about their meeting? Does this impact the storyline in any way. It seems that the Sam would have to mention it to Jon Snow in the very next episode.

Looks like it won't be a problem at all, because in the show Bran's and Rickon's "death" was of no meaning at all. Everyone knows they're alive, it seems.

[Nymeria's pup]

Jaime aks Sansa to be smuggled out of KL with Brienne, Sansa has already struck a deal with LF and refuses since she doesn't trust a Lannister (Jaime is hurt but understands), PW hapens, Sansa disappears, Jaime thinks she is in danger since he has no idea what happened, he sends Brienne, all is well.

:agree: I like this idea.

I was a bit upset that Jamie is back already, but it does not have to impede his and Brienne's story. Sansa is now a married woman and her family, as far as they know, is dead. Even though the marriage was forced on her she is not free to leave even if Jamie could convince Tywin that she should be let go. Besides the impending wedding of Joff and Marg (Margfrey, Joffaery, which is a better mashup/) will likely push Jamie's obligations to the back burner. Once the PW happens Sansa will be gone and Jamie will be free to send Brienne after her. Brienne can still not know what Sansa looks like because she is imprisoned when Loras accuses her of Renly's murder. She is whisked away without setting eyes on Sansa.

The bigger issue I see with Jamie being present is that he will be at the wedding. In the book he does not believe that Tyrion did it so he helps him escape. If he is present it will be harder for him to not to believe that Tyrion is complicit in some way.

[Coral of the Canals]

(Bearing in mind that this is mere speculation)

Although Jaime has arrived in KL earlier than expected, it doesn't necessarily complicate what happens next. Sansa knows that Robb/Cat have been murdered, Edmure is held prisoner, no one knows where the Blackfish is, and the rest of her kin are supposedly dead. This only leaves Lysa at the Vale. I was surprised to see LF leave so early in the season and always thought he would somehow return, for some reason. Perhaps he has already wed Lysa and comes back for the PW?

Still, for Jaime to keep his oath he must play some part in Sansa's escape with Littlefinger. It's hard for me to imagine him and LF working/conspiring together, but they could use Brienne's imprisonment (if they even show that) as some sort of catalyst.

[Versiroth]

(Bearing in mind that this is mere speculation)

Although Jaime has arrived in KL earlier than expected, it doesn't necessarily complicate what happens next. Sansa knows that Robb/Cat have been murdered, Edmure is held prisoner, no one knows where the Blackfish is, and the rest of her kin are supposedly dead. This only leaves Lysa at the Vale. I was surprised to see LF leave so early in the season and always thought he would somehow return, for some reason. Perhaps he has already wed Lysa and comes back for the PW?

Still, for Jaime to keep his oath he must play some part in Sansa's escape with Littlefinger. It's hard for me to imagine him and LF working/conspiring together, but they could use Brienne's imprisonment (if they even show that) as some sort of catalyst.

Jaime won't work with Littlefinger.... The only thing Jaime will do for Sansa is send Brienne to find and protect her once she goes missing.

[Wunhopkuendo]

I like this thread.

On Sansa, I think that any of the possibilities mentioned above could work. I also see multiple situations arising simultaneously. Here is how I see it: Jaime goes to Tywin and uses the "Lannisters always pay their debts" line. Tywin says there is no debt because Cat is dead. Frustrated, Jaime spends a few episodes trying to get help from Cersei/Tyrion/Varys to no avail. After Sansa spurns his attempt, he sends Brienne to try to convince her as she swears the same vow to she did to Cat. Meanwhile, a depressed Sansa is approached by Dontos. She is of course wary, but wants out of KL so badly that she tentatively plays along. And then maybe Shea also promises to to get her out, when the time is right, thus putting more distance between her and Tyrion as well as leverage against her for Tyrion's trial. So now you have multiple options for Sansa to take, as well as lots of chances to show real growth for her character and wash away all the naivete that has been built up so far. Then the PW happens, no one knows who killed Joffrey, nor how Sansa escapes. Some may think that she had something to do with the murder, now that she is growing more bold with the buildup. So many options.

[boojam]

I don't think the entire Tormund's force has been killed by the direwolves. The way I see it, only a handful of his men (and Ygritte) actually followed the old man in the horse-chase. Remember, the wildlings did not have horses with them, until they encountered the old man and he probably did not have enough horses for all Tormund's men. So I guess only a handful actually followed him, out of those Tormund and Ygritte survived, but there will still be men joining them - those who didnt get horses and could not chase the old man. I don't know, if he has enough to attack Castle Black, maybe if it was a surprise, but I guess the element of surprise is lost with Jon reaching CB.

And why everyone thinks that Ygritte followed Jon on foot? Did anything happen to the horses that the wildlings taken from the old man? I might have to watch episode 9 again, but I think it is plausible that she had a horse. Furthermore, in the scene with Jon and Ygritte there is a distinct sound of a horse neighing (not sure about this word, English is not my first language), but when the camera shows Jon's horse he is peacefully grazing grass, so it does not seem like he made the sound. To me it seems that Ygritte left her horse behind the little hill and sneaked closer to Jon on foot.

I agree with this, saw only two of Tormund's crew attacked by direwolves.

It's left totally unrevealed how many of Tormand's squad survived.

(By the by how did so many other Wildings wind up across the Wall, we who are readers know, not explained in the show, or was it?)

Anyway it means Rose is back next year, which pleases me.

Will there be the attack on Castle Black ... I don't know ... Tormand may abort the assault and return to Mance.

Ygritte killed during the battle for the Wall or does she become the new Val?

[ShigellaSand]

Why would LF allow Brienne to go free at the risk of his own plans and safety? And why would Brienne trust Sansa with someone that attempted to kill her?

Well, if LF tried to kill her, Brienne obviously wouldn't trust him. That's when she'd be setting off towards the Vale - as soon as she recovered from her wounds - but run into LS before she could get there. Or maybe she wouldn't be able to get there because the Vale was closed, who knows.

As for the other option - if Brienne was sworn to Sansa, and Sansa told her to go find Arya, and to not tell anyone where she (Sansa) was going... Brienne would keep her oath. And LF might have enough inside information to know that. Alternately, he'd pretend to go along with it, to keep Sansa's trust, and secretly plot to have her killed as soon as possible.

There's any number of ways the show could spin it.

[six]

Jaime won't work with Littlefinger.... The only thing Jaime will do for Sansa is send Brienne to find and protect her once she goes missing.

How do you know? What everyone is trying to tell you is that Jaime keeping his vow is a big deal for his character development, and you keep brushing it off. If he does nothing while Sansa is around of his arc is gone.

Ygritte killed during the battle for the Wall or does she become the new Val?

NO. And I'm totally shouting inside. I keep seeing this thrown around, but really is as bad as the idea that Ros was going to be fake Arya. If Ygritte doesn't die we have Jon in a completely different position, not to mention that it would be redundant as Jon already picked sides now, and the last thing we need is SEASONS of Jon/Ygritte angst.

Val is so not Ygritte. First of all Jon is not in love with her, he respects her now and he's mildly attracted by her, but that's it. He doesn't live in a conundrum as to whether he should be with the woman he loves of the NW, and if Ygritte was Val he would be conflicted. Secondly, Ygritte dying at the end is the tragedy of the fact that Jon found love and lost it for good. The show is already turning too soap-operish as it is.

[boojam]

I'd have to disagree, seeing as they gave her an incredibly (over)dramatic scene where she declares she will be going to rescue Theon from the East. I think it is clear they are trying to create distance between her and the Iron Islands before Balon dies. This gives us time in season 4 for her to get there and do some work towards getting Theon (eventually getting toward Winterfell) and Euron will be introduced in season 5, I think.

The Yara/Asha storyline is an odd one.

Kingsmoot is one of those GRRM quirks that D and D seem to like.

So it could come down to her having to choose between being Balon's successor and Theon.

If Roose and/or Ramsay find out Balon does not give a tinker's dam about Theon (I can't remember in the books just how much interest Roose had in Theon at this point)....then they may just stash Theon, which is th way we find him in ADwD.

Seems Yara would be more interested in the Seastone Chair.

I just think something will thwart her effort to rescue Theon, because , in season 4 we should not yet be into Uber-Butterfly effect territory yet.

[boojam]

NO. And I'm totally shouting inside. I keep seeing this thrown around, but really is as bad as the idea that Ros was going to be fake Arya. If Ygritte doesn't die we have Jon in a completely different position, not to mention that it would be redundant as Jon already picked sides now, and the last thing we need is SEASONS of Jon/Ygritte angst.

Well not matter what Rose Leslie is back for next season, for however long, I can't guess.

But it's good, I like Rose as a actress, but I my guess had been 'she is a gonner by the end of this season', so I was surprised.

[cuendillar]

The timeline would get more than a little convoluted, but would it be possible for Yara to be captured significantly earlier than at Deepwood Motte? If she's going to sail to the Dreadfort around Westeros, she'll pass within shouting distance of Dragonstone. As it's already been mentioned that Stannis defeated the Ironborn during the last rebellion, it seems possible for Yara to be taken in a naval battle and arrive at the Wall with Stannis' army as his prisoner.

Not sure if it's good or bad for Stannis to learn of Theon's predicament early, nor how he would react to that.

Weird idea: Yara takes the place of Val, as the "Ironborn princess". Much of the interactions would work out, once she and Jon clears up the Theon issue and it would put some major characters together for some streamlining of the plot. Justin Massey gets merged with Ser Patrek. Someone else is sent as an ambassador to the Wildlings, or none is needed due to all significant Wildlings having been taken captive already.

[six]

Well not matter what Rose Leslie is back for next season, for however long, I can't guess.

But it's good, I like Rose as a actress, but I my guess had been 'she is a gonner by the end of this season', so I was surprised.

I like RL too, but that doesn't mean Ygritte as a character shouldn't follow her path as in the books, especially since it would change Jon's development completely. Personally I knew she wouldn't die yet by now. He had to leave her first and make a choice, she wasn't going to die in the same episode. Even in the books, she doesn't die when Jon runs away from the wildlings.

[evilspread]

Not sure if this has been predicted, but there will be no assault on the wall, but an attempt to melt though it using the "biggest fire the north has ever seen". Battles are expensive and we are sympathetic to the wildlings, the fire replaces the horn as a threat to the wall itself. Mel uses her magic to reduce the flames and saves the wall. Perhaps Stannis' troops kills Ygritte in the attack, further cementing him as a villain in the eyes of the audience.

Not what I want to see, but would be cheaper than a huge army with mammoths and giants.

[Dove]

Funny, this exact thing just came up in the EP10 Discussion thread earlier, here's what I posted:

I absolutely adore both Ygritte and Rose Leslie (and I actually didn't much like her at first! but my god she's grown on me) and I hope that doesn't happen. Ygritte's death is such a powerful moment, and a huge thing for Jon's character. The exclusion of it would be pretty disappointing to me, personally.

Not to mention the presence of Ygritte could change things, though admittedly in ways that would be easy to write around - didn't Jon think that he would have possibly taken Stannis' offer of Winterfell and Val as a wife if it had been Ygritte instead?

In the end I don't think keeping Ygritte around would change things that they couldn't write around easily enough, but I think they'd be robbing the show (and Jon's character) of a very, very big moment.

I'm guessing they're just rolling the skirmish+the big battle into one and she'll die then.

[Versiroth]

How do you know? What everyone is trying to tell you is that Jaime keeping his vow is a big deal for his character development, and you keep brushing it off. If he does nothing while Sansa is around of his arc is gone.

What vow? Oh, you mean the one were he promises to return Sansa and Arya to Catelyn? I'm pretty sure her being dead relieves him of that vow. He never promised Catelyn anything other than that. When he arrives and learns of her death AND the fact that she's now married to Tyrion, who Jaime loves dearly, he'll likely not do a thing. As far as Brienne goes, she may be imprisioned as a Stark loyalist until after the PW. Jaime's character growth will come when he summons her and sends her on a quest to find and protect Sansa.

You guys trying to construct some sort of plot were Jaime is some sort of godly saint, denouncing his family in an attempt to smuggle Sansa away from his brother are WAY over thinking it. There's no need to invent some outrageous plot. It will work out just fine following the way it was done in the book. If they're so worried about Jaime's character growth, they could always have him ask Sansa if there's anything he can do to help her and then have her deny him. Again, I seriously doubt she'll ever trust anything a Lannister says again. With good reason....

[six]

Funny, this exact thing just came up in the EP10 Discussion thread earlier, here's what I posted:

In the end I don't think keeping Ygritte around would change things that they couldn't write around easily enough, but I think they'd be robbing the show (and Jon's character) of a very, very big moment.

I'm guessing they're just rolling the skirmish+the big battle into one and she'll die then.

I agree. Although I'm not sure they could write around it without making the storyline a big angsty soap-opera mess though. It would be tiring to watch Jon struggle with the same issue Ygritte vs NW for seasons. I don't really want to watch it. And yes, Jon did say that had Ygritte still been alive he would have taken Winterfell.

What vow? Oh, you mean the one were he promises to return Sansa and Arya to Catelyn? I'm pretty sure her being dead relieves him of that vow. He never promised Catelyn anything other than that. When he arrives and learns of her death AND the fact that she's now married to Tyrion, who Jaime loves dearly, he'll likely not do a thing. As far as Brienne goes, she may be imprisioned as a Stark loyalist until after the PW. Jaime's character growth will come when he summons her and sends her on a quest to find and protect Sansa.

Sansa is married into the family that killed her own, everyone knows that, even Jaime would know it regardless of the fact he loves his brother. He made a promise to Cat and in the books he makes a point of wanting to keep it even though she's dead. You might be right and he'll do nothing, but in the show they made a big deal of the fact he now feels compelled to keep that promise and it's important to him. If they dropped it, it would be illogical and OOC character too.

You guys trying to construct some sort of plot were Jaime is some sort of godly saint, denouncing his family in an attempt to smuggle Sansa away from his brother are WAY over thinking it. There's no need to invent some outrageous plot. It will work out just fine following the way it was done in the book. If they're so worried about Jaime's character growth, they could always have him ask Sansa if there's anything he can do to help her and then have her deny him. Again, I seriously doubt she'll ever trust anything a Lannister says again. With good reason....

Except in the book the situation is completely different, since he never has the chance to help Sansa at all. This is a different scenario Jaime is in.