Police abuse and citizens

[Shryke]

This wasn't just "an accusation." Many instances where the cop is clearly guilty are not from accusations but actual clear cut evidence. Like a dash cam showing a cop beating the shit out of a civilian for no reason, and the cop is suspended with pay while they "investigate."

Suspension with pay is absolutely NOT the obvious thing to do in any situation like this. If we were just talking about an accusation with no hard evidence, sure. Benefit of the doubt and all that. In situations like this the evidence already exists that there was clear wrong-doing so suspending with pay is basically giving the asshole a paid vacation for being a vicious, abusive thug.

No AP, it's still just an accusation until an official investigation is done. The same way that even if 30 people see you murder a man in cold blood, there's still a trial process.

You don't just cut off people's pay or fire them on a whim. If there is belief something bad happened, you investigate and while you do so you put people on administrative leave because you could be wrong and people don't deserve to be impoverished over an empty accusation.

You just want to skip the whole "investigation" step and go straight to the "punishment" step because you think the evidence is obviously there for it, but that's not how the system works and it's not how it should work. There needs to be a procedure and rules. That alternative is just ripe for abuse.

So if you were arrested tomorrow, should your job pay you until you've been proven innocent at trial?

If someone accused me of stealing from the company I work for, I would damn well hope the company wouldn't immediately cut off my pay and then investigate the issue only after that. If they did that, that would be a horrible injustice.

Same shit for the police at their job.

[Sturn]

If you're suspended from your job, why should you continue to earn a paycheck, especially in a government position where the tax payers are footing the bill?

Because the taxpayers don't want to foot the bill for the umpteenth million dollar lawsuit for wrongful termination when the culprit is found not guilty? Paying him his small wage (in the big picture) then firing him after he's been found guilty could save paying out a much larger amount later. It's what many corporations do, why can't the taxpayers' government do the same (smart) thing?

[Maltaran]

If you're suspended from your job, why should you continue to earn a paycheck, especially in a government position where the tax payers are footing the bill? Why do police get this special privilege but no one else (outside of big bankers, that is)?

Because the reason you're suspended might be a false accusation? And on the employer's side, to make sure they don't get sued for wrongful dismissal.

[Lily Valley]

Sturn,

As SWAT I assume you were formerly an officer on a force. I have been incredibly frustrated with our local PD. I've had some good experiences with them and some terrible ones, about equivalent to dealing with DMV personnel except a lot scarier when it goes badly. It seems like my district is overworked to the point of ennui. It is the largest, poorest district in the city. A lot of manpower is spent on traffic checkpoints (expired tags, wrong insurance card, etc.), yet it requires an Act of God to get an officer to come out to take a police report. This has led to frustration from a lot of residents. Do you have any advice for us? Our neighborhood is so high crime that interacting with the police is an inevitable part of life.

IMO the excerpt I posted is worth a read.

I'd be curious as to your reaction.

If it's been posted previously, apologies. Have not been following previous iterations closely.

Sci, I'm getting a wretched unremoveable pop-up petition request in front of this article. I'm going to try another browser or look for another link. If you've got one, please post it.

Suspension with pay is absolutely NOT the obvious thing to do in any situation like this. If we were just talking about an accusation with no hard evidence, sure. Benefit of the doubt and all that. In situations like this the evidence already exists that there was clear wrong-doing so suspending with pay is basically giving the asshole a paid vacation for being a vicious, abusive thug.

This is ridiculous. It's standard practice in any job to suspend with pay during an investigation if there is even a suspension at all. A professor at my university murdered his wife the day after a terrible violent argument on campus in front of all the students and faculty. His wife also worked at the University. He wasn't even suspended until his trial started. Articles here: http://topics.al.com...omov/index.html

[Derfel Cadarn]

I didnt say cops, i said NO ONE. If an organisation takes months to get to a disciplinary meeting then thats their tough shit. Better than ruining someone's life. Im pretty sure in the UK at least any firm that suspended someone without pay would find themselves in deep shit if that person was cleared. Hell, hows that person meant to find a new job when theyre atill trchnically employed?

[Sci-2]

Sci, I'm getting a wretched unremoveable pop-up petition request in front of this article. I'm going to try another browser or look for another link. If you've got one, please post it.

Sorry, not sure if the excerpt is anywhere else but try their printed version which I don't think has the popup scripts on the page.

[Lily Valley]

Sorry, not sure if the excerpt is anywhere else but try their printed version which I don't think has the popup scripts on the page.

Thanks Sci, you're an internet genius. The article was sickening. I have a couple of thoughts

1. I have a friend who is female SWAT in a different jurisdiction. She was not "co-opted". She went through the same tryout as all the males who applied for the opening. Different place, bigger town.

2. Officers who are NOT SWAT have also been involved in killing children. I would bet a statistical analysis would prove that accidental or wrongful deaths are LESS likely among SWAT police. I have a hard time believing a single member of my friend's incredibly well trained team would EVER have a gun accidentally go off and kill a child. This story scared the crap out of me: http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2012/06/11/ramarley-graham-case-nypd-officer-indicted-in-shooting-death-of-bronx-teen/

I had a long talk with my son after I heard about this (and cried) about obeying the police, pleading the fifth, and asking for his mother if he ever got into trouble. He's big, young, foolish and a smart-mouthed.

3. I don't want to derail the thread, but the criminalization of drugs does lead to so much criminal activity. Once someone is involved in drug culture in any way, they are separated from the rest of the law-abiding community. I feel like the "in for a penny, in for a pound" principle kicks in. If addicts were welcomed back into society and community, dealers would be out of business. Goodbye streets of blood, welcome home from jail young men and women. I know the problem is "complicated", but I'm sick of the headlines in my city. So many foolish, desperate, brave young boys and girls are dead every year to compete over a dangerous, thriving, illegal business. These kids aren't old enough to get a job tending bar, they have so little idea of the danger they walk into. So many sick people in jail which compounds their problems with addiction. Such waste.

[Sturn]

Sturn,

As SWAT I assume you were formerly an officer on a force. I have been incredibly frustrated with our local PD. I've had some good experiences with them and some terrible ones, about equivalent to dealing with DMV personnel except a lot scarier when it goes badly. It seems like my district is overworked to the point of ennui. It is the largest, poorest district in the city. A lot of manpower is spent on traffic checkpoints (expired tags, wrong insurance card, etc.), yet it requires an Act of God to get an officer to come out to take a police report. This has led to frustration from a lot of residents. Do you have any advice for us? Our neighborhood is so high crime that interacting with the police is an inevitable part of life.

Is the root of the problem the entire police department is being over-worked? If that is the case, then I have no realistic answer for a single person to change this in the current political and economic climate.

You mention over concenatration of traffic enforcement over simple patrol response. I think there is probably more to this, but knowing nothing else of it I will consider what to do if this is the case. Cities often have police divided along traffic vs. patrol divisions. Possibly the traffic division is doing fine since it's proactive only, while patrol is being vastly over-worked since they are reactive and thus can't control how much work they will do. It's completey up to what happens on a given night versus let's go out and pull some cars over at our leizure (traffic).

If this is the case, your department needs to move some personnel from traffic to patrol. How as a single citizen to get this done? It will be extremely difficult. If you walk into a police department and simply ask to speak to the Chief, the average citizen isn't going to have much luck. Do you have a friend with some pull in your city whose name would be recognized? Take him with you. You might shoot for trying to get a meeting with the commander of the patrol division. Do not try to speak with the traffic division, because what you are asking for is him/her to lose some personnel. If you get a meeting with the patrol division head, be polite, and express that you fear one of the problems of the city is the patrol division being vastly over-worked. He/she will probably eagerly agree with you. The next step is tricky. When you start suggesting your own solutions the commander may just sit back in his chair and get bored as he listens to another round of a citizen telling him how to do his job. Somehow get into the conversation though that it seems traffic isn't overwhelmed. Hopefully the patrol commander is not personal friends with the traffic commander or he/she could get defensive. But, the patrol commander could take the bait and think this could be a way to beef up the patrol division by grabbing some traffic guys. Hey Chief I've got this citizen (see it's not just me) who is concerned and has a great idea!

eta: If you can, do lots of research first and have it on paper. You might not be able to get the information, but if you have ready stats such as the number of patrol call responses per month, size of the patrol division vs. traffic division, average response times, etc, this could help. Be careful of how and what you hand the police officer though just have it ready when you think it's the right moment. You don't want the cop to think he has an over-zealous citizen doing some sort of investigation of his division trying to make him look bad with stats on papers. That could put a quick end to your conversation(s).

If the above scenario doesn't work at all, try getting the ear of a city commissioner and doing the same thing. You might even consider the commissioner before contacting the police, but that is tricky depending on the political climate in your city. A commissioner contacted first may just brush you off and send you to the police. Contacting the police first then a commissioner could get the police defensive when they hear the same citizen is now "complaining about them not doing anything" from their point of view. The perfect scenario would be to get the patrol commander on board then lasso a commissioner who is willing to listen also. A trio of SeniorCop-Politician-ConcernedCitizen can be very affective in making changes.

Your chances are still extremely slim and I'm basing my suggestions on minute information. There could and probably is much more going on behind the scenes that you are not aware of. Good luck.

PS: If you do go forward with something, don't ever mention you spoke to a police officer from another jurisdiction, "and he said to..". That could instantly turn the conversation south as the admin type thinks, "what the hell does this other cop know about what goes on here?"

[Lord O' Bones]

As a follow up question I have to ask as politely as I can: Why in the fuck are patrol officers and traffic officers in different divisions? Why are they different at all? They are meant to be officers of peace and should be equally trained as such. If you expect every resident to know every regulation and law I would hope at the minimum every police officer would as well. Police officers would only need to specialize between "patrol" and "traffic" if they were incapable of that. And that's pathetic.

[Sturn]

As a follow up question I have to ask as politely as I can: Why in the fuck are patrol officers and traffic officers in different divisions? Why are they different at all? They are meant to be officers of peace and should be equally trained as such. If you expect every resident to know every regulation and law I would hope at the minimum every police officer would as well. Police officers would only need to specialize between "patrol" and "traffic" if they were incapable of that. And that's pathetic.

Bold is not really conducive to asking questions wanting an actual polite response. Seems more of a rant then asking a question, but I will try to answer it for you.

Why are Walmart staff divided into sales clerks and stockers? Why are soldiers divided into Infantry and Artillery? Why are teachers divided into different grades and subject matters?

Specializations. Detectives handle investigations and get training and equipment to specialize in such. Traffic cops do traffic (enforcement, traffic accidents) and get training and equipment to specialize in such. Patrol cops respond to calls (can be proactive, but usually over-whelmed) and get training and equipment to specialize in such.

Each becomes better at exactly what they do. Same reason any other profession has similar divisions. Do you ask lawyers, "as politely as" you can, "why in the fuck" do they have divisions of criminal law, civil law, environmental law, family law, immigration law, international law, labor law, tax law, when they are lawyers and should, "know every regulation and law"? They are more intelligent and educated then police on average, yet they apparently still benefit from specializing.

Sorry, but when you complain of specializations amongst police because they, "should be equally trained" in all subjects when I can't think of a profession that doesn't specialize, it just seems another case of just trying to find something cops do bad without being realistic or unbiased.

[thecryptile]

I'm all for specialization in policing. Do you really want a guy who mainly operates a weigh station and writes speeding tickets responding to an active shooter?

Conversely, do you want SWAT teams to be wasted manning speed traps?

What about School Resource Officers? Surely they should receive specialized training because they operate in a very different setting from beat cops or SWAT.

My police friends seem to be cool with specialization as well. Recently, I asked a VA state trooper how to go about selling reloaded ammo legally; and his response was "I don't know- if it's not speeding or reckless driving, I don't give a fuck."

There are some real problems with LE in our country, but specialization isn't one of them IMHO.

[Lily Valley]

Is the root of the problem the entire police department is being over-worked? If that is the case, then I have no realistic answer for a single person to change this in the current political and economic climate.

<So much great information and helpful suggestions>

Your chances are still extremely slim and I'm basing my suggestions on minute information. There could and probably is much more going on behind the scenes that you are not aware of. Good luck.

Sturn,

Thank you so much. I have no doubt the entire force is overworked. It has also been through several scandals, federal investigation and a constant burning hatred from the local population. As a result, I imagine morale is very low.

It seems patrol is especially short-handed. I'd like to see an easier channel to filing a report especially for non-violent crimes that is easier than calling and waiting hours or days. A lot of robberies and thefts wind up unreported due to frustration and wait times. Our district has public meetings once a week and I'll start there when I get home. I had NO IDEA traffic and patrol are different branches of the department. Then again, what I don't know about how a police force is run could fill volumes. I sure as heck don't want the job.

In my neighborhood, from the outside, police response looks like this, "We have plenty of manpower to write tickets all day to take money and waste your time in traffic court, but God Help you if this is the fourth time this month someone has tried to break into your house while you were home. We might show up once, no money in that." Anger is rising, it seems unfair to get hit so hard and so often with traffic stops and get so little help when it's needed.

My best friend puts it best, "One or the other Dammit! Either it's the Wild West out here and we'll take care of ourselves, OR you write seatbelt tickets AND show up when someone's climbing into my window!"

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

From "infowars" so take it with a grain of salt:

http://www.infowars.com/florida-nurse-terrorized-by-us-marshals/

From the link:

Julie Wilson

Infowars.com

July 19, 2013

It was a typical evening after work when Sarasota, Fl., resident Louise Goldsberry finished dinner and began to clean up.

The nurse, employed by the Sarasota Doctors Hospital, proceeded towards the kitchen sink to clean the dishes when she gazed out her window. Her gaze met the eyes of a man wearing a hunting vest who was aiming a gun directly at her face.

Goldsberry, understandably frightened, dropped to the floor and began screaming. Although in a panic, she managed to crawl her way into the bedroom to retrieve her weapon, a .38-caliber revolver she had purchased to provide comfort while living alone.

She maintained a concealed weapons permit for the firearm.

Craig Dorris, her boyfriend who worked as a manager for a security alarm company, heard her screams and tried to make sense of his girlfriend&rsquo;s reaction when suddenly they both heard a man screaming to open the front door.

...

Wiggins claimed they had a tip that the suspect, Kyle Riley, was inside the apartment complex, but admitted they had no specific information that indicated he was inside Goldsberry&rsquo;s apartment.

Wiggins said when the people inside the apartment didn&rsquo;t immediately open up, that gave them reason to believe they were harboring the alleged child rapist.

The U.S. marshal even had the audacity to say, &ldquo;Nobody in the other units reacted that way.&rdquo;

Tom Lyons, a reporter for the Herald Tribune countered, &ldquo;Maybe none of them had a gun pointed at them through the window.&rdquo;

Of course Wiggins didn&rsquo;t seem to think that fact condoned the horrified woman&rsquo;s behavior. He said he acted with restraint and didn&rsquo;t like having a gun aimed at him.

&ldquo;I went above and beyond. I have to go home at night,&rdquo; said Wiggins.

Lyons argued, &ldquo;She had a gun pointed at her, too, and she wasn&rsquo;t wearing body armor and behind a shield.&rdquo;

&ldquo;She had no reason to expect police or think police would ever aim into her kitchen and cuss at her through her door to get in. It seemed crazy and she was panicked.&rdquo;

Wiggins responded with, &ldquo;We were clearly the police, she can&rsquo;t say she didn&rsquo;t know.&rdquo;

&ldquo;She does say so, actually,&rdquo; said Lyons.

In an interview with Lyons the following day, Goldsberry explained, &ldquo;I couldn&rsquo;t see them. They had a big light in my eyes.&rdquo;

Seeing someone get frightened by an armed man lookin through her window is not cause for a warrentless search of a home. Marshal Wiggins needs to be disciplined.

[Sturn]

I had NO IDEA traffic and patrol are different branches of the department.

Just to add, there is a chance your department does not have such branches. In very small departments, traffic is often merged into patrol. If your department's size nears or is over 75 I would guess it has a traffic unit.

In my neighborhood, from the outside, police response looks like this, "We have plenty of manpower to write tickets all day to take money and waste your time in traffic court, but God Help you if this is the fourth time this month someone has tried to break into your house while you were home. We might show up once, no money in that." Anger is rising, it seems unfair to get hit so hard and so often with traffic stops and get so little help when it's needed.

This may be a consequence of budget problems. The penny counters at the top tell the city manager/mayor/commissioner more money is needed, who then tells the police chief more money is needed. Individual officer ticket counts are then scrutinized. Depending on the state this could be illegal (anti-quota laws). I think more often the wording from above is picked cleverly to avoid any illegalities. "It doesn't appear certain officers are peforming all aspects of their job, including traffic enforcement", quickly gets the message across to officers wanting to keep their job and be promoted, without technically violating any laws or rules. Issuance of traffic tickets goes up. That still doesn't explain a response time of hours when reporting a past crime (ridiculous) unless there is also something else going on (extreme over-work, patrol cops constantly prioritizing on-going incidents over crimes that already happened).

[Derfel Cadarn]

In the UK at least, and im guessing the US is similar, Traffic cops do a lot more than hand out tickets and weigh vehicles. They're trained to spot dangerous defects in vehicles, and manage road closures and diversions during big accidents which can be a nightmare. After a fatal RTA they're the ones who visit the next of kin.

Death messages arent fun for any cop, but with traffic cops it can sometimes mean telling someone that their grown-up child, child's partner and grandkids are all dead.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Seeing someone get frightened by an armed man lookin through her window is not cause for a warrentless search of a home. Marshal Wiggins needs to be disciplined.

From the same article. "The man she saw aiming a gun at her through the window had nothing visible that said &ldquo;cop"." If that is true and she had her gun with her and shot him, would it be justifiable? I hope so, because if I ever see an unidentified person looking in my window, pointing a gun at me, I'll shoot him in the face.

[Lily Valley]

This may be a consequence of budget problems. The penny counters at the top tell the city manager/mayor/commissioner more money is needed, who then tells the police chief more money is needed. Individual officer ticket counts are then scrutinized. Depending on the state this could be illegal (anti-quota laws). I think more often the wording from above is picked cleverly to avoid any illegalities. "It doesn't appear certain officers are peforming all aspects of their job, including traffic enforcement", quickly gets the message across to officers wanting to keep their job and be promoted, without technically violating any laws or rules. Issuance of traffic tickets goes up. That still doesn't explain a response time of hours when reporting a past crime (ridiculous) unless there is also something else going on (extreme over-work, patrol cops constantly prioritizing on-going incidents over crimes that already happened).

It looks like over-work. From experience, it's easier to get an officer to come out for a traffic accident (2-4 hours) than for a past crime (3-8 hours or never). Here's the latest article I could find on our department. Considering our crime rate and constant community activism, the handwringing from the mayor's office is infuriating.

http://www.wwltv.com/news/newnopdrecruitclassbegins-208563341.html

Thanks again Sturn, I'm prepping a list of questions to ask when I get home. I'll get times and dates of calls and response times from my neighbors. Facebook is a big help for that. Our neighborhood page is a log of incident times and traffic checkpoint dates and times. A lot of my neighbors can't afford to fix things like broken windshields, lights and mirrors from time to time. Therefore, they are wary of brake tag checks.

From the article, it looks like attrition is 10% annually. That's worse than teachers.

[Sturn]

eta: Sorry this was what I was referring to in this response...

From "infowars" so take it with a grain of salt:

http://www.infowars....by-us-marshals/

The police wearing SWAT-style gear need to have super-clear markings on them indicating they are police. If not, it needs to change quick. We are living in a climate where we have idiots dressed military style or like Batman shooting people. When that dress has similarities to police, the police need to make it clear who they are both visibly and audibly.

For these reasons I'm against some of the current trend for tactical units to don uniforms with military camo. If you aren't wearing dark blue or black, at least don solid OD green. Crazies also wear military camo.

"Police", "Deputy", or whatever needs to be clear from front and back in a completely contrasting color. This is typically not a problem from behind where there is lots of room to paint "POLICE" across your back in white letters. From the front (the more important side for non-LEOs), the big, "POLICE" is often obscured by equipment on your vest or the officer's arms when holding a weapon. We also have police written across the front of our helmets for this reason.

Nearly two decades ago we purchased those big black ballistic shields with lighting. After training with them for a bit, we noted that across the front in large white letters was, "INTRUDER", the name brand of the shield. (eta: This without the POLICE). After considering the idiocy of this, we had to paint over it and replace it with, "POLICE". The current Intruder shield no longer comes painted thus, hopefully due to someone at the company realizing the problem before something tragic happened.

Bright lights can be a huge problem at night. You mark yourself as police then shine bright lights in peoples' faces so you can see them well. Now they can't see who you are. Vocalizing over and over who you are is a must (clearly, resisting adrenaline yells that no one can understand).

The cursing part I can understand even if it shouldn't happen in most cases. During adrenaline rushes I commonly find myself cursing at suspects until they comply*. Part of it is the adrenaline, part of it is experience in that if you calmly say, "Umm please sir would you drop the knife or I might have to shoot you" you don't get quick results. If you are yelling, "Drop the fucking knife or I'm going to fucking shoot you!!" it typically gets the knife dropped much more quickly.

*Just happened two nights ago working security at a major event. Found myself dropping f-bombs when I found myself alone in a brawl with three susupects. When things began to get under control and I looked about I realized I wasn't in the usual alley somewhere but surrounded by a huge crowd of spectators including children. I don't think the crowd minded much though one guy jumped into help and when the suspects were lead away there was a round of applause.

[Sturn]

http://www.wwltv.com...-208563341.html

Oh, it's New Orleans we are speaking of. :(

This one is hard since I have no first-hand knowledge myself and I have a general rule of not damning anyone (police obviously included) without very credible facts.

My "insider" knowledge does include receiving some information that others does not. This information I can of course never verify. With that caveat, in my OPINION New Orleans is one of the two most corrupt police agencies in the nation.

So, I have to give you a fair warning before taking any of the advice I gave you above. Your crusade could be the start of a good change for your neighborhood, but it also could lead to heartache and even personal peril. I'm not implying that police are going to show up at your door in the night to do you harm, but you might consider not wanting to be on the trouble maker list of the New Orleans PD. Pure speculation on my part, but the exodus of officers from NOPD noted in your link could be decent officers also realizing things are rotten and moving to greener pastures.

After typing one of my primary reasons for my pesonal bias against NOPD, I thought better of posting it for public view here since I can't verify it at all. I'll send you a PM.

[thecryptile]

With that caveat, in my OPINION New Orleans is one of the two most corrupt police agencies in the nation.

Just out of curiosity, what's the other "most corrupt" dept. in your opinion?