why the HBO show 'MIGHT' have f****d up

[Daske]

Daske, I'd concede your point IF we had a chance to see Talisa fearing she'll be raped, yet bravely and compassionately serving to tend the wounded anyway. That actually would have made for a great story; the problem is, we never get to see it! I also still have no clue why Talisa decided to get involved in tending the wounded in Westeros, anyway, and what exactly this had to do with being anti-slavery. If all she wanted to do was leave a slaving society, there actually are parts of Essos where slavery are illegal, such as Braavos (it may still take place underground, but you can say that for Westeros as well; Osha, for example, refers to herself as a slave in S1 when she approaches the heart tree in chains to pray, and tells Bran that even slaves are allowed to pray).

I think there just wasn't time to develop her any more than they did (although she is nowhere near the blank slate that some make out). They had to shoe-horn the back-story in a bit as it was. I think they are damed if they do and damned if they don't on this one. If they spent even more time developing Talisa's trials & tribulations and her motivations & hopes for the future then that's less time on other characters. But if she had got more attention then maybe she wouldn't be hated on so much. Catch-22 really. (And I don't see how that would have changed if she was Jeyne - she would still have to have been developed and expanded).

There's an interesting chat by Peter Jackson on one of the LotR commentaries where he talks about why he had to leave out some scenes that he really he didn't want to (Bombadil maybe?) - along the line of 'if it isn't moving the story along then they had to cut it'. I think in GoT it's even harder for them to strike that balance between the quiet character-building & world-building scenes and moving the plot forward coherently and with pace. Almost impossible to keep everyone interested in every scene (same with the books really).

[The Boar of Gore]

Daske: with a show as good as GoT in particular, screen time is precious, and Talisa got a lot of screen time much of which wasn't devoted to moving the story along, but was meant to convince us that she and Robb were in love, and invest in their story arc. I think a lot of fans immediately suspected that this much happiness was too good to last in the GoT universe, and it did feel as if Robb was spending so much time mooning over her that he'd forgotten the war.

TheKittenGuard: perhaps the cost of an extra actress was a factor, but not time when you consider how much screen time Talisa got.

[pleonasm]

I think there just wasn't time to develop her any more than they did (although she is nowhere near the blank slate that some make out). They had to shoe-horn the back-story in a bit as it was. I think they are damed if they do and damned if they don't on this one. If they spent even more time developing Talisa's trials & tribulations and her motivations & hopes for the future then that's less time on other characters. But if she had got more attention then maybe she wouldn't be hated on so much. Catch-22 really. (And I don't see how that would have changed if she was Jeyne - she would still have to have been developed and expanded).

Admittedly, I'm not a fan of the character of Talisa as constructed or the relationship with Robb... far too many modern sensibilities and not offering much of a contrast between the meet/cute combative relationship of Jon and Ygritte occurring in parallel - especially in season 2. That said, if your having Robb's story occur onscreen, which is a smart decision, they you have to go all in.

You need to get us fully invested in Robb's plights, his romance, and his role as leader of the North. We need to buy in to the idea that he is a 'protagonist' on this series (i.e. similar to Jon, Danny or Tyrion) and then for the Red Wedding to savagely undermine our expectations. Yes, some people were shocked and surprised, although I think more often that not, it was the violence of the attack, more so than losing three regular characters. I'v while read a lot of critics who are not book-readers. The most common thing I heard, was that while they admired the execution of the Red Wedding, they never felt fully vested in Robb, Talisa and Catelyn. I couldn't agree more.

And yes, that takes time, but I'd have more than willing to sacrifice a few Bronn quips, Littlefinger monologues, and other superfluous scenes for that to have happened.

[Steve Stark]

Pleon:

I liked Bronn in the show. :cool4:

But the other scenes you speak of I could agree with. Especially a few of LF's scenes (EVERY season). Not just because I hate the guy, but I think we got so many of his scenes that his mannerisms just got tiresome. I actually hate his voice at this point...not gonna lie.

[Daske]

TheBoarofGore and pleonasm, if I had to lean one way or the other I would have also preferred them to go for it. I know it wasn't possible for various reasons but it's a shame that they couldn't have had two more episodes a season which would have really helped a few of the characters to breathe a bit easier and rounded off a few rough edges. That would allow more of those character-building moments that give depth in which regard Talisa is way behind everyone else (apart from Roz) because we already know so much about all the other characters before even watching them unfold on screen. But the show has to stand in it's own two feet, so they can't really overcompensate with the time limitations as it stands. Even if you cut out Talisa you still have to do a love interest thing with Robb so you are still under the same restraints with Jeyne who you'd need to spend similar time developing anyway. Not really sure what I'm trying to say here apart from 'give me more show!' 'please!'.

[Annara Snow]

But the other scenes you speak of I could agree with. Especially a few of LF's scenes (EVERY season). Not just because I hate the guy, but I think we got so many of his scenes that his mannerisms just got tiresome. I actually hate his voice at this point...not gonna lie.

:agree: Littlefinger should be taken in small doses, that's why his character works in the books, where we were not beaten over the head with his villainy all the time, and did not have all his motivations spelled out 10 times per season.

[Kawasaki Bansai]

Stannis's character was butchered in the season 3, hope they make up for it next season.

[pleonasm]

TheBoarofGore and pleonasm, if I had to lean one way or the other I would have also preferred them to go for it. I know it wasn't possible for various reasons but it's a shame that they couldn't have had two more episodes a season which would have really helped a few of the characters to breathe a bit easier and rounded off a few rough edges. That would allow more of those character-building moments that give depth in which regard Talisa is way behind everyone else (apart from Roz) because we already know so much about all the other characters before even watching them unfold on screen. But the show has to stand in it's own two feet, so they can't really overcompensate with the time limitations as it stands. Even if you cut out Talisa you still have to do a love interest thing with Robb so you are still under the same restraints with Jeyne who you'd need to spend similar time developing anyway. Not really sure what I'm trying to say here apart from 'give me more show!' 'please!'.

I think its more of a question of priorities and where you (or the producers in this case) chose to spend their time vs. requiring more episodes. Beyond the material from Storm of Swords, Season 3 also expanded upon material from existing stories (i.e. the additional scheming with regards to Sana's marriage), material culled from future books/seasons (Margaery and Cersie rivalry, Theon, etc...), but also true filler material (the sexual exploits of Podrick Payne for example). There was room in season 3 to enhance Robb, Talisa, and Catelyn's storylines, sadly they elected not to do so.

It's a slightly baffling choice given that the climax of the season involves all three of them. Imagine if Tyrion was relegated to supporting part in Season 2 prior to "Blackwater"? Regardless, we are where we are. And why season 3 is a mixed success.

[Annara Snow]

It's a slightly baffling choice given that the climax of the season involves all three of them. Imagine if Tyrion was relegated to supporting part in Season 2 prior to "Blackwater"? Regardless, we are where we are. And why season 3 is a mixed success.

I actually thought that Tyrion didn't get nearly as much focus or development in season 2 as in ACOK, apart from the Blackwater episode. In the book he really felt like the protagonist for that book, in season 2 less so - it seemed more split into a bunch of different storylines, some of which were unnecesary (Dany's dragons being stolen). On the other hand, they focused on him more than they should have in season 3.

[pleonasm]

I actually thought that Tyrion didn't get nearly as much focus or development in season 2 as in ACOK, apart from the Blackwater episode. In the book he really felt like the protagonist for that book, in season 2 less so - it seemed more split into a bunch of different storylines, some of which were unnecesary (Dany's dragons being stolen). On the other hand, they focused on him more than they should have in season 3.

I agree about season 3, but a fan calculated the screen time for season 2 and character of Tyrion was far and away the character with most screen time, leading all other characters by at least 23 minutes. I guess its possible to debate how much character development occurred in that season, but he did have the biggest presence.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/94295-a-game-of-screentime/

[cmill216]

This is astounding! Utterly ridiculous.

The last thing we want is 2 seasons of Jon and Dany's ADWD stories

Dany is tied up in her knot sorting through bureaucratic nonsense while we wait for Tyrion and QM to show up so she can fly off on Drogon

Granted, Tyrion needs his time on the river, that's one of the most important (and enjoyable) parts of ADWD... that does demand a good chunk of his story this season. I see him getting there are episode 6 only to see her hightail it out of there before the credits

As far as I'm concerned Quentyn doesn't need to be in the show, he was written as a Red Herring and the only thing he really did to enhance the plot was let the dragons out (and die a wonderful crispy-critter death)

I'm sure there are a dozen other ways D&D can think up that would get those Dragons roaming free by the time the Yunkai began their attack. Sons of the Harpy terrorism, Dragon panic, Dany's husband, whats his name hizazalaexx, maybe he's dumb enough to try his hand at it.

Battle of Meereen in episode 9. Dany finds her Dothraki in one of the last few scenes of episode 10

Similarly, we get to see Jon as a leader and see what sort of person that makes him. He does a fantastic job: he makes pacts with Wildlings, gives them shelter, helps recruit for the Watch, starts repairing the parts of the wall is disrepair, makes shrewd deal that will give the watch Winter provisions. Maintains a civil relationship with a rather demanding queen and a quite eccentric mystic, etc. etc. etc.

on the page I get a warm fuzzy feeling seeing this kid come in to his own and really become a worthy leader: He grows a bit harder, not the warm teenager he was, but that's because he can't afford to be that guy anymore, he has to make commands... he's pure, with no discernible motives left besides serving the Night's Watch to the best of his abilities (but even his loyalty breaks in the end, in the name of family)

He's like a softer Ned.

But these are character moments, in another setting this would pass for engaging watching, everybody else is in the midst of adventures or quests or mortal danger or high drama (Excluding Dany)

Nobody wants to watch two seasons of a leader with reasoned, measured thinking, who is at best mediating other peoples adventures while working himself to death in his office, especially when it's interupting dragon fights or evil pirates or possibly evil tree yodas or 12 year old super assassins in training

Dany's big moments in ADWD are flying away and finding her khalisaar

Jon's big moment is getting Ceasared and presumably (eye roll) dead

They aren't going to sit on go nowhere plots... Dany and Jon will complete their ADWD storylines in season 5. No question about it.

This. This. And more this.

You have to look at this from the perspective of the showrunners. Season 3 gave us the earth-shattering Red Wedding. And Season 4 will be absolutely LOADED with massive events. So in order for Season 5 to even possibly compete, they have to combine what's left of AFFC with the entirety of ADWD.

This way, they can cherry pick the best storylines, and actually put together a pretty great season out of two mediocre books. I can already see them going Dany/dragons for the Episode 9 event, and then cap it off with Jon's assassination as the final scene of Episode 10, which would be a jaw-dropping gut punch for audiences and a killer way to close the season.

Going forward, TWoW has to come out by 2015. Bottomline. I'm pretty convinced the final book won't drop before the show gets to it. But if TWoW is on the level of SoS in terms of plot, it could buy them two seasons before having to get to the end.

[King Zee]

On the Other Hand

if they finish the two books in one season and GRRM still hasnt finished Book 6......

[pleonasm]

On the Other Hand

if they finish the two books in one season and GRRM still hasnt finished Book 6......

It's pretty much guaranteed at this point the final season of GOT (Season 8) will predate the final book in the series. It would take a Christmas miracle or George locking himself in a cabin for nine months for that not to occur. But at the slow rate Winds of Winter appears to be coming together, its possible the series may even overtake that book. Does anyone think he is even close to 1/2 done at this point? And given the draft chapters released to-date appear to be moving at the same pace as previous two books, I'm not even fully convinced the series is two books away from getting wrapped up.

Season 4 - Spring, 2014 - Storm of Swords, Beginning of Dance, Feast

Season 5 - Spring, 2015 - Feast and Dance, Best Case scenario for releasing Winds of Winter book?

Season 6 - Spring, 2016 - Winds of Winter

Season 7 - Spring, 2017 - Winds of Winter, Dream of Spring

Season 8 - Spring, 2018 - Dream of Spring conclusion

[Le Cygne]

There's much quieter stuff coming up for a time, they'd do well to set up the emotional basis for stories a bit more than they have so far, to draw people in.

[Colonel Green]

As far as the pacing of Dany's story goes, there's a major x-factor there, in that we really have no clear indications how far her story is going to go in Season 4. It could potentially get a decent chunk of her Season 5 story in there in some form.

[Hmmmmwhat]

How is the Oberyn "Say her name" thing going to make sense to show watchers? Since they don't know much about the sack etc.

[Chuck88]

How is the Oberyn "Say her name" thing going to make sense to show watchers? Since they don't know much about the sack etc.

Well they have at least half a season to explain it before the trial by combat. Not to mention the bathtub scene from last season, Bran referencing it in S1, multiple references throughout to Tywin's treatment of the Targaryen children. Perhaps this will be lost on inattentive viewers but this is not the type of show to watch half-assedly

[Khal-a-bunga]

Yeah, the sack of the city, and - specifically - what happened to the Targaryen children has been mentioned several times throughout all three seasons. In addition to those above, Ned discusses what happened to them (tangentially) in season one; The Hound talks about it before his trial by combat with Beric; Maester Aemon has a pretty lengthy scene where he discusses it in detail; etc. There are a lot of smaller or more subtle references than these, but it's been mentioned quite a bit.

Whether non-readers have picked up on it to this point isn't necessarily relevant, though, considering it will surely be brought up several times in the upcoming season.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Stannis was destroyed in every way possible, in that third season. Not optimistic about his image improving because D&D can't understand his character. It was so appalling to see Stannis beg for booty in ep 3.

[joachim]

I disagree. They were showing Stannis at rock bottom. And as someone who didn't read the books until this year, I hadn't thought much of him until "Kissed by Fire." If the rest of A Storm of Swords is just a taste of what's in store for him in the last two books, then season three will basically be his Valley Forge.