why the HBO show 'MIGHT' have f****d up

[Mr Fixit]

Debunked point? Err, no. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so.We've read your arguments. They were weak.

It's not a matter of argument, it's a matter of fact, Annara.

Unless you'd like to argue that in ASoIaF universe (and in the late middle ages) there are no battlefield healers and nurses, no marriages for love, and more concretely, that Talisa is wandering the battlefields alone. Since all three points are patently and demonstrably false, I really don't know what you're trying to say.

Now, I'm not saying that Talisa is a great 3-D character; that's a whole another matter that we CAN argue about. What we can't argue about is outright lying and then pretending it's a valid form of discussion. But, as ever, feel free to continue!

ETA: Le Cygne, I'm not trying to insult you, sorry if you felt that way. I was, admittedly poorly, conveying a feeling I have when reading your generally well thought-out posts: that as much as you're discussing the finer points of the books and the show, you tend to treat them as some kind of meta-validation of your own values and belief systems.

And that's perfectly OK with me. But it does tend to narrow one's view and blind them to other possible interpretations of the material if they're approaching things from this kind of built-in, entrenched Weltanschauung shining through every argument.

[Le Cygne]

Agreed. Also it certainly wasn't played out as sarcastic : she was nothing but serious and adamant.

True. And to add to your point, he had grown to respect her ability as a knight and her courage.

I would have loved to see it play out like this, I so missed wench and Kingslayer, too:

How can such a night be beautiful? he asked himself. Why would the stars want to look down on such as me?

"Jaime," Brienne whispered, so faintly he thought he was dreaming it. "Jaime, what are you doing?"

"Dying," he whispered back.

"No," she said, "no, you must live."

He wanted to laugh. "Stop telling me what do, wench. I'll die if it pleases me."

“Are you so craven?”

The word shocked him. He was Jaime Lannister, a knight of the Kingsguard, he was the Kingslayer. No man had ever called him craven. Other things they called him, yes; oathbreaker, liar, murderer. They said he was cruel, treacherous, reckless. But never craven. “What else can I do, but die?”

“Live,” she said, “live, and fight, and take revenge.” But she spoke too loudly. Rorge heard her voice, if not her words, and came over to kick her, shouting at her to hold her bloody tongue if she wanted to keep it.

Craven, Jaime thought, as Brienne fought to stifle her moans. Can it be? They took my sword hand. Was that all I was, a sword hand? Gods be good, is it true?

[Le Cygne]

ETA: Le Cygne, <snipped more personal stuff about me>

Just seeing this... Again, you're making this personal, and I could make it personal about you as well, but I'm not going to. I am here to talk about the show and the books. I explained why I considered the depiction of certain characters and plot points sexist, and could have added many more (the fate of Daisy, anyone?) and either agree, or don't agree, but leave the personal assessments out of it. And I'll refrain from telling you what I think of your ability to interpret a story.

[Annara Snow]

It's not a matter of argument, it's a matter of fact, Annara.

Unless you'd like to argue that in ASoIaF universe (and in the late middle ages) there are no battlefield healers and nurses, no marriages for love, and more concretely, that Talisa is wandering the battlefields alone. Since all three points are patently and demonstrably false, I really don't know what you're trying to say.

Now, I'm not saying that Talisa is a great 3-D character; that's a whole another matter that we CAN argue about. What we can't argue about is outright lying and then pretending it's a valid form of discussion. But, as ever, feel free to continue!

I'm really confused by: 1) what the heck does the issue of "are there marriages for love in Westeros" has to do with this discussion (since I never said there weren't and have argued that book Robb did marry for love, and Patrick Stormborn didn't even bring up this subject at all in this thread); 2) why you had to list not one, but three Straw Men arguments, since neither I not PS said that there were no nurses in Westeros, and PS even explicitly said it wasn't logical for Talisa to go around the battlefield with just one protector and have no fear of rape, unlike every other female character in the story; and 3) what on Earth does "outright lying and then pretending it's a valid form of discussion" refer to? That last bit doesn't even make a lick of sense. Who is lying about what? Are you saying that I am lying that the issues people have with Talisa have not been debunked, because you're convinced that the strength of your arguments in previous discussions on Talisa was so mighty that all had to tremble before it, and everyone had to see that it's a fact that you and only you are right? Are you being serious? :stunned: That level of arrogance is normally displayed only as a joke, so I can only assume you're joking.

[Mr Fixit]

Just seeing this... Again, you're making this personal, and I could make it personal about you as well, but I'm not going to. I am here to talk about the show and the books. I explained why I considered the depiction of certain characters and plot points sexist, and could have added many more (the fate of Daisy, anyone?) and either agree, or don't agree, but leave the personal assessments out of it. And I'll refrain from telling you what I think of your ability to interpret a story.

Why so defensive?

[Mr Fixit]

I'm really confused by: 1) what the heck does the issue of "are there marriages for love in Westeros" has to do with this discussion (since I never said there weren't and have argued that book Robb did marry for love, and Patrick Stormborn didn't even bring up this subject at all in this thread); 2) why you had to list not one, but three Straw Men arguments, since neither I not PS said that there were no nurses in Westeros, and PS even explicitly said it wasn't logical for Talisa to go around the battlefield with just one protector and have no fear of rape, unlike every other female character in the story; and 3) what on Earth does "outright lying and then pretending it's a valid form of discussion" refer to? That last bit doesn't even make a lick of sense. Who is lying about what? Are you saying that I am lying that the issues people have with Talisa have not been debunked, because you're convinced that the strength of your arguments in previous discussions on Talisa was so mighty that all had to tremble before it, and everyone had to see that it's a fact that you and only you are right? Are you being serious? :stunned: That level of arrogance is normally displayed only as a joke, so I can only assume you're joking.

No, Annara, I'm not saying you're lying. I was replying to a very specific post by another poster concerning a very specific point. Then you came along and quoted me out of context. I was replying with regards to my points in that discussion, which has nothing to do with you, and yet you accuse me of accusing you of lying. Really. :mellow:

[Daske]

it wasn't logical for Talisa to go around the battlefield with just one protector and have no fear of rape, unlike every other female character in the story; ...

We don't know it was just one protector (and people had until recently have been arguing that she had no protection at all). Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - there really was no reason to show her being marched about by a troop of guards, it can be inferred she had adequate protection.

That said I would think that she would have fear of rape. Whatever her protection of course it is still going to dangerous - that much is true! But in real-life this doesn't stop some people going out to help anyway.

Foreign men and women do get beaten, abducted, raped or killed every year while helping the injured and refugees in overseas war-zones. To hold the idea that a female field nurse is ridiculous because it is dangerous ignores the bravery of those relief workers who are actually out there right now putting their lives on the line often with very limited support structures in place. And some don't come back. That danger is going to be there whether we are talking about now or five hundred years ago. It's an odd thing to say but there are real-life Talisas out there.

If anyone's interested, but it's grim reading...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_humanitarian_workers

It's a serious subject and I did wonder about posting. I'm not trying to score a cheap point here, I just think we should be acknowledging these people do and could have existed despite the dangers involved. They are certainly braver than me.

[Le Cygne]

Why so defensive?

Why so offensive?

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I disagree. I don't think Robb legitimately falling in love and betraying allies makes his character any less deep. If anything, the idea that Robb was helpless and grieving and that's the only reason he bedded Jeyne makes his character less deep. He made a grievous mistake that any man could make, however stupid, and he paid for it. How does that cheapen a character when the alternative is that he was comforted in grief and still died for it? It's almost like people want to deflect blame off Robb for falling for Jeyne and think that somehow makes him a better character. I quite like that he fucked up royally (har!) being selfish.

I can understand not liking Talisa as a character. She's only worse than Jeyne in the sense that she's around so much more that we're constantly reminded how much of a bonehead Robb is being, but still that's the point. Robb was a bonehead. Every character that contemplates his decision to marry Jeyne basically concludes "Wow, what an idiot."

[HairGrowsBack]

Foreign men and women do get beaten, abducted, raped or killed every year while helping the injured and refugees in overseas war-zones. To hold the idea that a female field nurse is ridiculous because it is dangerous ignores the bravery of those relief workers who are actually out there right now putting their lives on the line often with very limited support structures in place. And some don't come back. That danger is going to be there whether we are talking about now or five hundred years ago. It's an odd thing to say but there are real-life Talisas out there.

I think the point was that it was ridiculous because it wasn't shown as dangerous : Talisa seems to be doing just fine, no one ever harasses her, which is, considering the ASoIaF world, somewhat unrealistic.

[WeddinGuest]

I don't think Robb legitimately falling in love and betraying allies makes his character any less deep. If anything, the idea that Robb was helpless and grieving and that's the only reason he bedded Jeyne makes his character less deep.

DarkAndFullofTurnips: Just FYI, while I know many other fans think "Robb was helpless and grieving and that's the only reason he bedded Jeyne", this has never been my argument against Show!Robb's romance. I think Book!Robb also "legitimately" fell in love and betrayed his allies, as he himself confesses, to Lord Walder and the Frey women, that he broke his promise "because I loved another". There also seems to be this impression among some that Book!Robb only knew Jeyne for a few days to a few weeks at most, before he slept with her, and therefore, didn't have time to fall in love with her. But (1) It seems Show!Robb only knew Talisa for a "few days to a few weeks at most" before he slept with and married her, too, and (2) Tyrion had known Tysha for even LESS than a day before he bedded and wedded her, and it seems most fans accept that he was "legitimately" in love with her. For all we know, neither Robb/Jeyne or Tyrion/Tysha would have been compatible long-term, but I don't think that means real love didn't exist in the relationships.

I think Book!Robb was (1) in love with Jeyne AND (2) helpless and grieving; so it's not the "love" part that bothers me about his show storyline. It's that the show had a chance to show Robb being emotionally vulnerable and didn't take it. It also didn't show the inner conflict between love and duty that I interpret Book!Robb as having struggled with; same with Jon/Ygritte and Sam/Gilly. Now, I realize inner conflict is really difficult to show in a visual medium, but there are ways to do it; Theon writing, then burning, his letter to Robb is a perfect example. When I critique the show's handling of this, I am critiquing missed opportunities more than anything else. The show actually has Cat in the camp as Robb romances Talisa, and therefore, could certainly have used Cat as a exposition tool, and have Robb confide to her that he loves Jeyne/Talisa, but realizes what his duties are as a king, instead of just rebelliously rejecting her advice with eye rolls, "but I looove her", etc.

We don't know it was just one protector (and people had until recently have been arguing that she had no protection at all). Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - there really was no reason to show her being marched about by a troop of guards, it can be inferred she had adequate protection.

That said I would think that she would have fear of rape. Whatever her protection of course it is still going to dangerous - that much is true! But in real-life this doesn't stop some people going out to help anyway.

Foreign men and women do get beaten, abducted, raped or killed every year while helping the injured and refugees in overseas war-zones. To hold the idea that a female field nurse is ridiculous because it is dangerous ignores the bravery of those relief workers who are actually out there right now putting their lives on the line often with very limited support structures in place. And some don't come back. That danger is going to be there whether we are talking about now or five hundred years ago. It's an odd thing to say but there are real-life Talisas out there.

If anyone's interested, but it's grim reading...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_humanitarian_workers

It's a serious subject and I did wonder about posting. I'm not trying to score a cheap point here, I just think we should be acknowledging these people do and could have existed despite the dangers involved. They are certainly braver than me.

Daske, I'd concede your point IF we had a chance to see Talisa fearing she'll be raped, yet bravely and compassionately serving to tend the wounded anyway. That actually would have made for a great story; the problem is, we never get to see it! I also still have no clue why Talisa decided to get involved in tending the wounded in Westeros, anyway, and what exactly this had to do with being anti-slavery. If all she wanted to do was leave a slaving society, there actually are parts of Essos where slavery are illegal, such as Braavos (it may still take place underground, but you can say that for Westeros as well; Osha, for example, refers to herself as a slave in S1 when she approaches the heart tree in chains to pray, and tells Bran that even slaves are allowed to pray).

Now, I have seen others complain that in order to be "realistic", Talisa would definitely have been raped, killed, or both long before she ever met Robb, which I think is over-the-top, because being at risk of rape is not the same as actually being raped (same for murder). Brienne isn't actually raped, either, neither is Sansa, but both the book and show does show them to be at risk of that happening to them. I did not get a sense that Talisa was, though. Also, all this background seems to be mostly tossed aside in S3, anyway, so it really did seem to be invented more to spice up her story than for any deep "showing us the courage of volunteers who go into foreign war zones" message.

[Le Cygne]

Also, her attitude was not realistic, she was openly challenging the king, refusing to look at him or answer a direct question, speaking disrespectfully, turning her back on him, ... In the example of Dr. Zhivago, Lara was very high spirited and passionate, but in a war zone as a volunteer nurse, she behaved appropriately to the situation. And their romantic feelings for each other were expressed very subtly, because there was no other way at the time to do so.

[The Boar of Gore]

Critique is a standard way to both appreciate art and evolve artistically. Anyone with an arts background understands this as part of the creative process, and that includes the professionals involved with the show.

Agreed, I liked the Jeyne subplot, I liked Robb immensely when I read this, and I loved Jeyne's response to those using her to play the game as well. I would have loved to see show Robb lost and alone, grieving for his brothers, reaching out to Jeyne for comfort. I think it would have been touching and added depth to the characters. Also loved how Cat had also acted out of love for the girls, and both deepened their relationship as a result. Also would have loved to see Jeyne ripping her dress defiantly to mourn Robb, and Jaime, who had grown so far apart from Cersei, thinking she would not do the same. Little character moments, those stay with me as a viewer, that makes those big moments like the Red Wedding matter more.

Yes! Human emotion. Reaching out to someone when you're vulnerable, the commitment made by the heart no matter what the reasons against it might be.

Jeyne ripping her dress would have made such powerful television, too. Provided it was done right, by a good actor, and they have shown they are good at directing great scenes and casting great actors. When you consider all the things the show has to get right, and has succeeded in getting right, I hesitate to criticize but...maybe the rationale for replacing Jeyne with Talisa (to streamline the plot) wasn't fundamentally sound. Yes, we have to make sure the audience can follow the story, but to make a story that moves people is the ultimate bottom line. For me, it's not that the Talisa character/arc wasn't in the books that's the problem, but that they didn't make me care about her - or, rather, care enough about her. People have even complained that she was inserted into the story purely to make us feel worse for Robb, which is ironic, considering that if she had succeeded better as a character in her own right, Robb losing her would have meant more too.

[insert joke about Talisa's ass/ultimate bottom line here]

[Le Cygne]

Yes! Human emotion. Reaching out to someone when you're vulnerable, the commitment made by the heart no matter what the reasons against it might be.

Jeyne ripping her dress would have made such powerful television, too. Provided it was done right, by a good actor, and they have shown they are good at directing great scenes and casting great actors. When you consider all the things the show has to get right, and has succeeded in getting right, I hesitate to criticize but...maybe the rationale for replacing Jeyne with Talisa (to streamline the plot) wasn't fundamentally sound. Yes, we have to make sure the audience can follow the story, but to make a story that moves people is the ultimate bottom line. For me, it's not that the Talisa character/arc wasn't in the books that's the problem, but that they didn't make me care about her - or, rather, care enough about her. People have even complained that she was inserted into the story purely to make us feel worse for Robb, which is ironic, considering that if she had succeeded better as a character in her own right, Robb losing her would have meant more too.

Agreed. I could never suspend disbelief enough to buy into her as a character, so there was an element of unreality, I kept thinking, Robb, wake up from this dream, and be yourself again, like you were in season 1, so I can care about you again.

[Woman of War]

For me, it's not that the Talisa character/arc wasn't in the books that's the problem, but that they didn't make me care about her - or, rather, care enough about her.

Caring about Talisa:

I have an unsullied friend who vowed not to continue watching the show since the stabbing of Talisa's pregnant belly was simply too gross for her. She was more invested into Talisa than in many other charcters. My friend was furious at the showmakers, how could they make this happen!! She for sure had not minded the sex nor the violence so far. And, btw, she is a woman of forty and a successful executive .

[The Boar of Gore]

Caring about Talisa:

I have an unsullied friend who vowed not to continue watching the show since the stabbing of Talisa's pregnant belly was simply too gross for her. My friend was furious at the showmakers, how could they make this happen!! She for sure had not minded the sex nor the violence so far. And, btw, she is a woman of forty and a successful executive.

That's not really caring about Talisa. She would have felt the same about any pregnant woman getting stabbed in the belly, right?

[Woman of War]

But the showmakers got an extremely strong emotion here. And my friend did not know that

Talisa was not in the books, to her she was as real as Arya or Dany.

[The Boar of Gore]

If Talisa as a character worked for her, then good. Note, I didn't say I didn't care about Talisa at all, but that I didn't care enough about her, or her story arc. There are enough other people who feel the same that Talisa gets discussed here quite often.

[Daske]

Also, her attitude was not realistic, she was openly challenging the king, refusing to look at him or answer a direct question, speaking disrespectfully, turning her back on him, ... In the example of Dr. Zhivago, Lara was very high spirited and passionate, but in a war zone as a volunteer nurse, she behaved appropriately to the situation. And their romantic feelings for each other were expressed very subtly, because there was no other way at the time to do so.

These counterpoints have been raised before (and not just by me) but I'm bored so...

• Not all people will act the same way in any given situation. And people who generally act against type are very prevalent in any fiction to stir things up. Fiction would on the whole be very boring if this wasn't the case.

• Talisa is talking Lady to Lord, and as such she would expect to be treated courteously from the outset. You can nitpick about 'King' in the North but in this context it's the same thing.

After that, if she is curt with him or challenges him would she really expect more than just being ignored or 'get from my sight'? It's not like she kicked him in the balls.

The Starks would have a good reputation as fair people.

The world as depicted on screen is nasty but not quite as 'dead if you step out of your door' nasty as the book.

I could be wrong on ths one, but I believe that much of the evilness of Lords that we take for granted is based on the fictional version of the Sherriff of Nottingham and similar adventure stories where they need really evil baddies. There just don't seem to be much evidence that all lords were like this historically (of course there will be exceptions). And unless you didn’t pay your taxes of course, but that hasn’t changed to this day.

So maybe not historically, but this is Westeros...But Martin did not write most of his own lords and ladies as horrible tyrants/psychopaths. Most of them are quite 'civilised' people. It's very likely that the true nature of the Ramsays and Freys is not appreciated by other Northeners or anyone else. I don't get the vibe that people would be scared for their lives just talking to the average lord, especially if highborn.

But even if you think she should be scared of this lord she doesn't know personally so then yes you could argue that it was stupid of her to speak her mind. But stupid doesn’t mean impossible or unbelievable. People do a lot stupider things all the time. It's dangerous and stupid to drink-drive but unfortunately that doesn't mean it's unlikely to happen. Rather the opposite in fact.

Other characters act even ruder to really nasty lords & ladies and get a pass both from fans and the lord or lady in question. They do not even get sent out of sight in each of these cases - Bronn to Tywin, Arya to Tywin, Shae to Cersei. They are put firmly in their place so they know they have crossed a line but they aren't sent to pulled apart by wild horses. And they are lowborn (or as far as the lord/lady knows anyway).

One thing I don't mind the Talisa story is that it has a great hidden message - she was safer on the battlefield that she was joining The Game of Thrones. Bronn meanwhile does the same thing joining the Game with the bad guys and wins the lottery!

[TheKitttenGuard]

TBOG,

The streamlining of plot may not be fundamentally sound but it might be needed so they could have action scenes in Blackwater.

The production end of adaption is still sometimes a manner to consider. An extra actress for Spicer and having Robb/Jeyne interaction in one room may well be simple but it still time and money.

Blackwater was mention since their was plan for it to be mainly inin Maegor Holding with aspect of the battle reported. No set piece were plan. They did get the money for it but they are on a budget.

Fans should not really care of the production side. When it get to why something done or not it has to have some consideration.

Though I still have disagreement with "fridged" the points are sound. It just makes me wonder how much it is a unintended consequence of the elimination of Westerling/Spicer subplot.