Atheist kids these days...

[TrueMetis]

I really don't see the point of worrying if our perception is different from objective reality. GPS systems work, even if it's our perception of reality is flawed a GPS proves that our understanding of the universe is largely correct.

[Pero the first of His name]

I really don't see the point of worrying if our perception is different from objective reality. GPS systems work, even if it's our perception of reality is flawed a GPS proves that our understanding of the universe is largely correct.

That is where i am trying to get this :)

[Errant Bard]

So do you think our data processing could be faulty because of lack of knowledge to incorporate the data into a correct wiev of reality?

What does "faulty" or "correct" mean? I was simply questioning FB on the concept of a reality independent from consciousness, as he's I think saying too that our consciousness is "faulty". I just don't get the concept.

I am sorry, I don't understand your question either, I don't know what is a "correct view of reality", how to determine it's correct or not. I don't understand how reality can be claimed to exist outside of the data you get, and you processing it.

Note this is not originally about mundane stuff like GPS, but about perception of time, block universe, and gods.

[Pero the first of His name]

What does "faulty" or "correct" mean? I was simply questioning FB on the concept of a reality independent from consciousness, as he's I think saying too that our consciousness is "faulty". I just don't get the concept.

I am sorry, I don't understand your question either, I don't know what is a "correct view of reality", how to determine it's correct or not. I don't understand how reality can be claimed to exist outside of the data you get, and you processing it.

Well, if you get some data and you analise it wrong but you believe you are correct you think something is real while it really is not.

I am not thinking our consciousness distorts as much as i am lead to believe that some people here do so i was just trying to respond to that.

edit - i thought it was originally about raising a kid atheist

having said that, can you link me something good for me to learn about this ``block universe``? :drunk:

[Errant Bard]

Well, if you get some data and you analise it wrong but you believe you are correct you think something is real while it really is not.

How do you know it is not? If you don't trust your consciousness (which is kinda inherently schizophrenic, thinking about it) to provide you with the "valid" data, how do you know any data is more "valid" than the previous? That is the point, or at least the point I was questioning FB about. (we are including internal thought, logic and understanding here, too, in "consciousness")

having said that, can you link me something good for me to learn about this ``block universe``? :drunk:

There is one, plus the original discussion, a few pages back.

[IheartTesla]

IheartTesla -> Doesn't seem like either of the things you state contradict Francis's idea, which seems to actually be [a] variation on Block Universe Theory. Apparently some people think it's the best way to view reality:

I have no idea what block universe theory is, but the statement was that the passage of time was inherently anthropocentric and seemed to be linked somehow to consciousness. I take consciousness to be a consequence of sentient or living beings - and this event took place pretty late in the evolution of the universe. Unless there is a different definition of consciousness, I don't know how the two can be reconciled.

Now in QM there are arguments that an observer is necessary for the collapse of the wave function - maybe the theory is a variant on this.

[Lehnaru]

Raised as a generic Christian, started consciously turning into an atheist at Bible camp when I was 13 or 14. That was the point of no return, but I didn't really believe in God at a younger age.

[Eyron]

<snip>

I was told I couldn't be friends with a girl - I got along really well with at school - who wasn't a JW would be destroyed at Armageddon because she doesn't believe in Jehovah. I was punished every time I was caught talking to her.

<snip>

Thank you for sharing all of this, I can't imagine how hard it must be. I hope you will not have to worry about your family interfering with your medical care in the future.

I was that friend to a JW girl at my school from when I was 6-8 yrs old. She was so happy about her faith and talked about it a lot and invited me to come with her family to the Kingdom Hall, but I never went, and I can't remember but I think it was my parents who prevented it. They kept more and more to themselves so I saw less of her, and then they moved quite suddenly. We wrote letters but the letters stopped coming and we didn't have any contact until we were teenagers and ended up at the same school again. She struggled and was practically tormented about whether to stay with her faith or to leave everything behind at that point. She moved away again and I don't know what happened. I always hoped she would find a way to be happy.

I don't think of it as oblivion. After I die, my body will return to the earth which is where we all ultimately came from. Circle of life and all that. I find it rather comforting.

I think this is comforting too, and I think I would tell a child that we become new life when we die. From dust to dust, stardust if you will.

My parents raised me without religion and they were never religious that I know of, and I got to choose for myself. I was not baptised as a baby.

My first experience with religious thoughts was when I was five and my little brother was ill with cancer. At my pre school my teachers had reassured me that if he didn't become well he would go to heaven to the angels, which I thought was curious, and I didn't quite like that he would go to some unfamiliar people all alone. They assured me that it would be awesome for him there, but I wasn't convinced. I kept thinking about this and later asked my mother if it was so great to die wasn't it better if he died in the first place? Before she understood where I got this idea she was somewhat upset. So we had a talk about the afterlife. She told me people believe in different things, some believe in heaven and some that we become new persons or animals, some that we just fall into a beautiful sleep and that many don't know what to believe at all. I asked her what she believed and she said she didn't know but thought it was probably a long dreamless sleep. I thought that sounded ok.

I always thought a lot about religion and what there could be after this so I decided to go to church to learn Christianity when I was 14 with the kids at that age preparing for communion here. I had nice conversations about philosophy and religion with our priest, but some of the other teachers were into the letter of the bible, and I found it was impossible to talk to them. They were not tolerant and quite rude towards another member of the church who was gay. I objected and had bible references thrown back at me, in the presence of said member of the church no less. I kind of knew that this church was not for me at that point, since it apparently was a place for them.

I gave this one more try, since our priest was at least with me on these matters and decided to get baptised at easter so I could take communion later that spring. I thought maybe something will happen and I will finally understand what it is all about, why so many believe.

When I finally took communion something weird happened, I was sitting at the front of the church, waiting for the moment, when I had these horrible pains in my stomach and I started feeling sick. I tried to force it away but it just got worse and I almost fainted. So I rushed out and went to the bathroom, and threw up. It was cramps, and I had never had them before. I had to sit and breathe for a while and then I went back in, dizzy and confused, pale as a ghost. Everybody (church was full) was staring at me and it was painful and awkward. I stayed and took communion, but felt this chapter was over.

So, I am sort of agnostic. I don't need religion in my life and I find life, energy, universe and our minds to be mysteries (more or less) worthy of awe in themselves. I never believed in heaven or hell. The way I tried to explain it to our priest was that I believe there is a force of good that pervades us, and we can be made aware of it, and strive to use it. Like a thought that is the essence of all things that we can try to imitate and that is god or just simply an effect of life as it is.

I find I pray in a way, and I sometimes use the word god but I don't identify with any of the faiths I've met. I don't need religion to give me a moral code, even if my ideals in part historically come from religion, and I would raise my children without any particular religion as well. I would want them to be good, strong, loving people, and decide for themselves.

[Pero the first of His name]

Everyone is agnostic. Who truly knows that there is a god and who truly knows there is nothing out there that could perhaps, be remotely godly in some way?

I do believe there is ``nothing such`` there. That makes me an atheist.

[thistlepong]

You summoned?

Oh. Did I? I'd love to hear that story.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

R'hllor,

"Dad, what happens when we die?"

"A bunch of your white trash aunts and cousins show up, get drunk, embarrass the family at the funeral, then steal all the nice shit in the house."

Not in my house damnit. None of my "white trash aunts" would dare cross my wife.

;)

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I am curious, though maybe this should be in a new thread: What DO atheists think happens when they die?

It is horribly depressing to think that we are perpetually non-existent after death. Just so no one is confused, that is not an argument for an afterlife, just an observation.

Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but for me yeah that's what I figure will happen. It is sad, but I've kind of made peace with the idea too. On really good days I think about how we're just comprised of energy of how energy never really ceases to exist so there's that, but no matter how much I would like to believe in something more than what we have here, I just logically can't buy into that.

I had a conversation with a woman who was visibly shocked that I was an atheist. She asked me what was stopping me from going out and killing someone in the street. Um ... I didn't really have a response because I was shocked myself. So the only thing stopping her from doing the same is because God says not to? That's extremely frightening to me. Right and wrong, good and bad, the meaning of life - these are things that can have answers beyond God and it baffles me that some people can't accept this. In my experience, this is a very small minority, but these people do exist.

You should have told her that it is hard not murdering people when you don't have an invisible man's voice in your head telling you what to do all the time, but somehow you make it.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I am curious, though maybe this should be in a new thread: What DO atheists think happens when they die?

It is horribly depressing to think that we are perpetually non-existent after death. Just so no one is confused, that is not an argument for an afterlife, just an observation.

Just curious, but I wonder if you, or anyone, have ever thought about if it is, or could be, depressing that you were practically-perpetually nonexistent before being conceived?

[Pero the first of His name]

After you die you go on another path in the journey while the grey courtain of the world rolls back making everything turn into silver grass and then you see white shores and a green country under a swift sunrise.

[Weeping Sore]

I have no idea what block universe theory is, but the statement was that the passage of time was inherently anthropocentric and seemed to be linked somehow to consciousness. I take consciousness to be a consequence of sentient or living beings - and this event took place pretty late in the evolution of the universe. Unless there is a different definition of consciousness, I don't know how the two can be reconciled.

Now in QM there are arguments that an observer is necessary for the collapse of the wave function - maybe the theory is a variant on this.

Amit Goswami taught Quantum Mechanics at the University of Oregon and was an atheist like the majority of scientific academia. He had wrestling with exactly this dilemma - that if a conscious observer is necessary to collapse a wave function, and consciousness itself is an epiphenomenon subject to wave function collapse, you have a tangled hierarchy, or catch-22.

Dualism doesn't work in his explanation, that is if consciousness is separate from matter, the two have no way of acting on each other. The tangled hierarchy is eliminated though if matter is an epiphenomenon of consciousness rather than the other way around. Obviously if you make this paradigm shift you stop being an atheist.

Goswami's conclusions led him to embrace Idealistic Monism. Consciousness being outside of time and space is what allows quantum entanglement where two particles can affect each other instantaneously regardless of the distance between them. And this is not to affirm simply mind over matter. Essentially, the universe is one consciousness which conscious beings all partake in to some extent.

Check out Amit Goswami's The Self-Aware Universe or the documentary Quantum Activist (I think that's still streaming on Netflix), if this sounds interesting.

[Turinqui-Calima]

I know this is from way back in the thread but I wanted to comment on:

I have a question for the Atheists here.

Do your religious friends and/or family try to convert you or say that you are wrong or do they leave you alone about it?

And do you try to do the same?

The only problem I have with Atheists is when they say that religious people are wrong. Just like when a vegan gets all high and mighty by saying that killing and eating animals is wrong.

You will find that if you leave people alone with their beliefs that the issue wouldn't be a big deal.

In my case I don't think those are really comparable. I'm Vegetarian because I think the way we treat animals is ethically wrong, but, although it is obviously possible to be ethically opposed to religion, being a theist or atheist is really just a matter of fact (i.e. it's 'do I think it's likely that god(s) exist', not 'do I think it's a good thing that god(s) exist').

I think that's why I treat the subject differently. I'm much more likely to try to convince someone to share my opinion on factory farming than religion, because I think factory farming is despicable. When it comes to religion I've never tried to convert someone with a belief, although I will explain/argue for scientific theories etc.

As for your actual questions:

In Sweden no one ever tried to convert or influence me when it comes to religion, but since moving to America it has happened a few times. Mostly it's just the little things though, like being obligated to participate in prayer etc. When I told mt Grandmother-in-Law that I was an atheist her immediate response was "No you're NOT", like I had just offended myself.

As for trying to 'covert' someone to atheism I have to say that although I have never tried to make someone religious convert to atheim I have encouraged those that call themselves 'agnostic' or 'spiritual' to really think about it and maybe admit that they are really atheist. This mostly applies to my husband who will call himself atheist when it's just the two of us but seems to be scared of the word in public.

[Weeping Sore]

I know this is from way back in the thread but I wanted to comment on:

In my case I don't think those are really comparable. I'm Vegetarian because I think the way we treat animals is ethically wrong, but, although it is obviously possible to be ethically opposed to religion, being a theist or atheist is really just a matter of fact (i.e. it's 'do I think it's likely that god(s) exist', not 'do I think it's a good thing that god(s) exist').

I think that's why I treat the subject differently. I'm much more likely to try to convince someone to share my opinion on factory farming than religion, because I think factory farming is despicable. When it comes to religion I've never tried to convert someone with a belief, although I will explain/argue for scientific theories etc.

As for your actual questions:

In Sweden no one ever tried to convert or influence me when it comes to religion, but since moving to America it has happened a few times. Mostly it's just the little things though, like being obligated to participate in prayer etc. When I told mt Grandmother-in-Law that I was an atheist her immediate response was "No you're NOT", like I had just offended myself.

As for trying to 'covert' someone to atheism I have to say that although I have never tried to make someone religious convert to atheim I have encouraged those that call themselves 'agnostic' or 'spiritual' to really think about it and maybe admit that they are really atheist. This mostly applies to my husband who will call himself atheist when it's just the two of us but seems to be scared of the word in public.

Shouldn't I be offended if a religious person doesn't try to convert me? That is if they literally think I will burn in hell for eternity if I don't embrace their sky-god, warning me about it seems like the right thing to do from their perspective.

Atheists pushing atheism are just sort of saying "You poor deluded person, believing in anything other than material phenomena. Too bad you haven't reached the deep, sobering realizations I have." Or there are the non-pushy atheists, "Oh no no, believe in whatever imaginary friends you want. I do think you're totally non-rational and/or insane, but we can still be friends, right?"

"Respecting other people's beliefs" is really just agreeing to shut your mouth at a certain point in the conversation.

[Gertrude]

I have a friend I discuss this with who calls himself agnostic. I and another atheist friend are frustrated with him because he talks more like an atheist and we think he should just pick a damn side :P. I am more forceful (well, not exactly the right word, but close) with proclaimed agnostics because I feel that they haven't really put the work into it to make a decision. I'm probably wrong in thinking this, but he's the only agnostic I've had an in-depth conversation about this with and he can't explain why he is in the middle to my satisfaction.

So throwing this out there to the agnostics out there - what would it take to swing you to one side or the other? Have you put your belief to some serious examination and are still undecided? Is undecided even the right way to be looking at this?

[I know I know]

As for trying to 'covert' someone to atheism I have to say that although I have never tried to make someone religious convert to atheim I have encouraged those that call themselves 'agnostic' or 'spiritual' to really think about it and maybe admit that they are really atheist. This mostly applies to my husband who will call himself atheist when it's just the two of us but seems to be scared of the word in public.

I guess your husband is American? That seems to be mostly a US thing.

A lot of Americans have convinced themselves that "atheist" means "committed to the no gods position", and "agnostic" means "I don't know".

Huxley, who coined the agnostic term, would probably punch most Americans in the neck for the cowardly misuse of the term common is the US today.

[Weeping Sore]

I have a friend I discuss this with who calls himself agnostic. I and another atheist friend are frustrated with him because he talks more like an atheist and we think he should just pick a damn side :P. I am more forceful (well, not exactly the right word, but close) with proclaimed agnostics because I feel that they haven't really put the work into it to make a decision. I'm probably wrong in thinking this, but he's the only agnostic I've had an in-depth conversation about this with and he can't explain why he is in the middle to my satisfaction.

So throwing this out there to the agnostics out there - what would it take to swing you to one side or the other? Have you put your belief to some serious examination and are still undecided? Is undecided even the right way to be looking at this?

You sound alot like a gay person telling someone who's bi to pick a side.

I think agnostics are not as invested as atheists as to whether or not there is a god. When I described myself as an agnostic, I honestly didn't know if there was a god, and I didn't care much. A god would be pretty much irrelevant to my life anyway, and I definitely never believed in a god who would need my approval one way or the other.

Nevertheless, certain experiences in life lead to feelings of something existing beyond material reality. Atheists will agressively rationalize these experiences, but agnostics may be more open to non-materialist explanations. Basically atheists are slamming the door behind them but agnostics leave it open a crack.