Reading Joe Abercrombie's The First Law for the first time. (Spoilers for Books 1-3)

[Veltigar]

A Feast for Crows didn't show many scenes with the NW brothers in it (discounting Samwell ... and I doubt the book was named for him), so I don't think that the name neccessarily points to the Starks getting on an awesome revenge spree and a happy end. Personally, I am of the mind that it refers to "hour of the wolf", that hasn't got exactly positive connotations. The ending won't be a total downer, I'm sure, but having read some of GRRM's short stories taught me not to be too hopeful.

AFFC was a reference to a line in a Jaime (?) PoV. I believe Free Northman's interpretation of the original title is to optimistic, but I believe that you connecting it to the hour of the wolf might be to negative. IMO "A time for Wolves" should be interpreted as a call of duty for the Stark kids. It's time for them to step up to their game and help decide the faith of Westeros. This doesn't mean they'll all have a happy ending but it doesn't mean they'll all die miserably either.

[lojzelote]

AFFC was a reference to a line in a Jaime (?) PoV. I believe Free Northman's interpretation of the original title is to optimistic, but I believe that you connecting it to the hour of the wolf might be to negative. IMO "A time for Wolves" should be interpreted as a call of duty for the Stark kids. It's time for them to step up to their game and help decide the faith of Westeros. This doesn't mean they'll all have a happy ending but it doesn't mean they'll all die miserably either.

Yeah, I know what "A Feast for Crows" stands for. I just wanted to show that the title doesn't mean it must be all about the Starks being victorious.

I don't thing I'm being too negative. After all, A Dream of Spring doesn't neccessarily imply many positive things either. Sure, it could that the whole book is like a happy dream, but IMO it's more likely it will be about our band of protagonists desperately fighting in the middle of a terrible winter against the Others, each other, disease and hunger, and spring remains a distant dream, which we will come only in the epilogue. Not saying that everybody will die, but ... the Stark kids better not to take their "duties" too seriously or some of them might get hurt. :P

I suppose we'll see.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte]

According to the thread title, this discussion will have spoilers for books 1-3 written openly.

Only the spoilers for the other 3 books will be given a spoiler tag.

[The BlackBear]

According to the thread title, this discussion will have spoilers for books 1-3 written openly.

Only the spoilers for the other 3 books will be given a spoiler tag.

Yes but it was originally for people in the process of reading, it's not hard to spoiler your posts. Just good manners.

[SeanF]

@ SeanF,

My eyes burrrn! Remember, what is seen cannot be unseen. If you add spoiler tags now, it might not be still too late for some

Sorry, I've edited my spoilers correctly now

.

[SeanF]

AFFC was a reference to a line in a Jaime (?) PoV. I believe Free Northman's interpretation of the original title is to optimistic, but I believe that you connecting it to the hour of the wolf might be to negative. IMO "A time for Wolves" should be interpreted as a call of duty for the Stark kids. It's time for them to step up to their game and help decide the faith of Westeros. This doesn't mean they'll all have a happy ending but it doesn't mean they'll all die miserably either.

I hope the end of ASOIAF isn't as downbeat as that of TFL. But, I think it will be more bitter than sweet.

[Merentha]

Well, Dogman is okay; he only kills enemies and mostly in battle. Collem West is ... passing. In real life, I would be hesitant to defend him, but here I could get inside his mind, and he truly seemed to regret what what he did. Plus, that I also wanted to b*tchslap his victim during the moments before the incident really helped, too.

You know that, as far as we can tell, that abusers in the real world also feel real remorse too, right? Remorse didn't stop West, and it won't stop real-life abusers.

I gotta say, I really liked reading Northman and Abercrombie's little discussion a few pages back. Honoring and respecting men of violence is probably something you should do carefully at best. I still don't trust the Dogman. Who knows how he actually got his name... ( :P)

[lojzelote]

You know that, as far as we can tell, that abusers in the real world also feel real remorse too, right? Remorse didn't stop West, and it won't stop real-life abusers.

I gotta say, I really liked reading Northman and Abercrombie's little discussion a few pages back. Honoring and respecting men of violence is probably something you should do carefully at best. I still don't trust the Dogman. Who knows how he actually got his name... ( :P)

Well, I haven't got a degree in psychology, nor personal experience (thanks for that!), but idk, from the bits I read on the subject here and there mostly claimed that abusers usually (that may be a key word) feel they are in the right and only pretend they're sorry to keep the partner in the relationship. :dunno:

Either way, West's emotion seemed honest enough to me to believe that he would do everything in his power so it wouldn't happen again. The question is whether "everything" would be enough. Very possibly not, but we will never know for sure now ... so I'll give West benefit of doubt, although I could be biased because I really sympathized with him otherwise. Not saying that other readers have to do the same.

ETA: I just realized that from my original comment it could seem that I approve of West's actions. I most certainly do not. But I can understand why got so mad. In his place, I would yell and yell and YELL.

[Demandred]

I suppose whether West would have or would have not attacked his sister again is dependant on the nature whatever his illness is. Despite his best intentions, in times of deep stress, the pain in his head might cause him to snap. Still, I think he was a decent person overall and I certainly didn't hold the death of Ladisla against him. Dude was about to rape someone (seemed to have a history of the action too) and was just sheepish about. Not to mention that he led his men into a slaughter. It was a shame seeing West fall apart due to the sickness in the end. I guess it was just to drive home the nature and severity of it by having a POV character contract it.

Having Glokta actually cry was also an interesting facet, despite how much he tries to explain away his reactions in his POV (it was crying! it was just his body reacting that way coincidentally!)

The ending left me a bit cold. I'm mainly looking for escapism when it comes to fantasy and Abercrombieland is grim to say the least. Certainly not a place I'd like to visit, haha. I really want to see Bayaz taken down though. I imagine living that long would warp a man's perspective on what is and what isn't important but he was just completely megalomaniacal by the end.

On another note, was Burr really just having indigestion or was he being poisoned? I got the feeling that the illness wasn't all that it appeared to be. Then West started getting similar symptoms and...

[The BlackBear]

2) The ending left me a bit cold. I'm mainly looking for escapism when it comes to fantasy and Abercrombieland is grim to say the least. Certainly not a place I'd like to visit, haha. I really want to see Bayaz taken down though. I imagine living that long would warp a man's perspective on what is and what isn't important but he was just completely megalomaniacal by the end.

2) On another note, was Burr really just having indigestion or was he being poisoned? I got the feeling that the illness wasn't all that it appeared to be. Then West started getting similar symptoms and...

1) The only person who could take down Bayaz is (likely) a near immortal meglomaniac as well. Khalul certainly wasn't about breaking the laws himself for revenge, he probably feels he's justified as well.

I have to hand it to Abercrombie, he can really create an intriguing backstory. The Four brothers especially interest me. And Eaters are just awesome. And people with real fucking extraordinary god complexes are brilliant to read about.

2) I had figured it was Bethod's witch...

[PhoenixFlame]

Regarding Monza from Best Served Cold...

Obviously she's no saint but I fail to see how she's all that evil. She let Shivers go, rewarded the people who helped her, and seems now to be holding onto Styria. She should've realized how Cosca would waste any reward she offered, but she was quite fond of him. And she's one of the few people who tells Bayaz (indirectly) where to stick it, so double points.

[SeanF]

Regarding Monza from Best Served Cold...

Obviously she's no saint but I fail to see how she's all that evil. She let Shivers go, rewarded the people who helped her, and seems now to be holding onto Styria. She should've realized how Cosca would waste any reward she offered, but she was quite fond of him. And she's one of the few people who tells Bayaz (indirectly) where to stick it, so double points.

She did cause a bloodbath along the way though. And, she does have a history of mass-murder. And, while Gobba was a loathsome creature, the scene where she hacks him apart with the hammer was stomach-churning. I don't think that the occasional act of decency can outweigh this

[Merentha]

She did cause a bloodbath along the way though. And, she does have a history of mass-murder. And, while Gobba was a loathsome creature, the scene where she hacks him apart with the hammer was stomach-churning. I don't think that the occasional act of decency can outweigh this

She actually doesn't have a history of mass murder, one of her big reveals is that pretty much everything attributed to her was directly orchestrated by Benna. Caprile was already razed by the time she was even aware that anything was happening.

Fair enough to the bloodbath on the way to her revenge, but barring the fight in Cardotti's, her "bloodbath" is pretty well contained to her targets (or Morveer's direct doing)

I suppose whether West would have or would have not attacked his sister again is dependant on the nature whatever his illness is. Despite his best intentions, in times of deep stress, the pain in his head might cause him to snap. Still, I think he was a decent person overall and I certainly didn't hold the death of Ladisla against him. Dude was about to rape someone (seemed to have a history of the action too) and was just sheepish about. Not to mention that he led his men into a slaughter. It was a shame seeing West fall apart due to the sickness in the end. I guess it was just to drive home the nature and severity of it by having a POV character contract it.

On another note, was Burr really just having indigestion or was he being poisoned? I got the feeling that the illness wasn't all that it appeared to be. Then West started getting similar symptoms and...

West died of magic radiation poisoning, not anything else. That was clear. Also, I don't see any reason for Burr to have had anything other than massive stress, which West also inherited. His headaches are totally unrelated to either, other than the fact that he's a walking ball of rage. And no, his "illness" is the fact that he and Ardee were raised by an abuser and he physically abuses his sister. He

might not have, but I highly doubt it. He doesn't have an "illness" (well, until magic radiation poisoning) he's an abusive, furious man. I could be wrong about all of this, but that was my read.

He's certainly not a "decent person", his interaction with Ardee didn't make me think anything other than "textbook abuse."

Well, I haven't got a degree in psychology, nor personal experience (thanks for that!), but idk, from the bits I read on the subject here and there mostly claimed that abusers usually (that may be a key word) feel they are in the right and only pretend they're sorry to keep the partner in the relationship. :dunno:

Well, we can't read minds, but from what I remember, it seems to start with genuine remorse. It may be later, too. I should have been clearer. What's interesting is that that period of remorse is how abusers often keep the people around them from thinking there's actually a pattern of behavior. "Oh, he feels so bad, he couldn't possibly do it again." Yeah, he might not have. I just didn't think he had it in him.

[MisterOJ]

So I'm about halfway through Red Country and loving it so far. But I have a question. Should the following be considered a spoiler for those that haven't started Red Country:

Lamb is Logen.

I thought it was pretty obvious from the outset, but then, I had read something about the book being about Logen before I started it. Should this still be considered a spoiler?

[Veltigar]

So I'm about halfway through Red Country and loving it so far. But I have a question. Should the following be considered a spoiler for those that haven't started Red Country:

Lamb is Logen.

I thought it was pretty obvious from the outset, but then, I had read something about the book being about Logen before I started it. Should this still be considered a spoiler?

I think you should keep that revelation under spoilertags.

[Merentha]

So I'm about halfway through Red Country and loving it so far. But I have a question. Should the following be considered a spoiler for those that haven't started Red Country:

Lamb is Logen.

I thought it was pretty obvious from the outset, but then, I had read something about the book being about Logen before I started it. Should this still be considered a spoiler?

For everyone who hasn't read Red Country, yes, its a big spoiler. For everyone who has started the book, I think not, considering how damn obvious it is when you're reading.

[MisterOJ]

For everyone who hasn't read Red Country, yes, its a big spoiler. For everyone who has started the book, I think not, considering how damn obvious it is when you're reading.

It is so obvious, I don't know if it's possible to be considered a spoiler. I can't think of any other instances where

naming a book's main character would be considered a spoiler.

Because when first read that, I thought, "Dammit, I just got spoiled." But then upon actually starting the book, I was like, "No big deal. That was revealed in the first 25 pages or so."

[The BlackBear]

Spoilers for halfway through BSC:

Just got the the Ganmark bit, Shivers hallucinations of the Bloody Nine were especially fun, then him fighting like him (at least as far as I've got.)

Just a slight question, we know Logen is big, Six and a half foot ish, but is he taller than an average Northman? He seems to be extremely strong even when he's not channelling the nine, is he bigger than Shivers?

[Maithanet]

Spoilers for halfway through BSC:

Just got the the Ganmark bit, Shivers hallucinations of the Bloody Nine were especially fun, then him fighting like him (at least as far as I've got.)

Just a slight question, we know Logen is big, Six and a half foot ish, but is he taller than an average Northman? He seems to be extremely strong even when he's not channelling the nine, is he bigger than Shivers?

I definitely think that Logen is both bigger and stronger than the average Northman. Shivers is described as very tall so I pictured him as being a bit taller than Logen but a bit lighter and more wirey.

[The BlackBear]

I can see you Joe!