Reading Joe Abercrombie's The First Law for the first time. (Spoilers for Books 1-3)

[Chun-Li]

Does Khalul appear in any of the standalones?

[Goodbye World]

I don't know but while we're on the subject, are the Magi immortal, and how do you pronounce 'Magi'?

[Veltigar]

For God's sake Rhom, I hope you didn't just ruin the ending to Red Country.

Anyway, why is it that people always talk about Best Served Cold and The Heroes but no one mentions Red Country? Is it not as good compared to the other two?

Heroes is the best book Abercrombie has written. Red Country is a very good book but not on that level. It still beats the shit out of Best Served Cold though.

[PhoenixFlame]

The Heroes and The Last Argument of Kings are my favorite JA books, but I like them all. The Heroes is a war story so obviously it's not hugs and bunnies, but it's definitely not a downer ending. Certain characters become much better people over the course of the story. Probably has my favorite Crowning Moment of Heartwarming in the JA verse:

When Calder makes Scale king, realizing he really loves his big brother. While simultaneously being the only non-superhuman person to fuck directly with Bayaz and get away with it.

Red Country is a really good book but I wasn't quite as sucked in like some of the others. It has some of the best writing, but I wasn't as compelled by the characters. Best Served Cold has a special place in my heart, but then again I'm a huge Count of Monte Cristo fan. Plus

Jezal cameo for the win!

[Chun-Li]

I'm not sure if this was answered in the books or not, don't look if you haven't read the trilogy,

How did Khalul even know that Bayaz killed Juvens?

[williamjm]

Does Khalul appear in any of the standalones?

No, although he is mentioned and we see some of his minions.

I don't know but while we're on the subject, are the Magi immortal, and how do you pronounce 'Magi'?

I suppose we don't necessarily know if they'll live forever, but judging by Bayaz and the others we see they can live for centuries without appearing to get old.

I think May-jie is the usual pronunciation for the Biblical Magi, presumably it's the same in Joe's world.

[SeanF]

All the magi that we encounter seem to age up to the point of late middle/early old age, and then stay still.

[Goodbye World]

So they are human but because they learn the art/magic they become immortal unless they are killed?

I'm not sure if this was answered in the books or not, don't look if you haven't read the trilogy,

How did Khalul even know that Bayaz killed Juvens?

I don't know, but this reminds me

How stupid is Yulwei? He saw with his own eyes that Bayaz lied, that the maker's daughter fell after the maker and he thinks that he 'misremembered'? and he asks Bayaz if he killed Juvens and believes him right away?

[Jukka Sorasti]

It took me a little while to get into Red Country, but by the end I'd say it was better than Best Served Cold, although The Heroes is the best of the standalones.

I agree, the cynicism is pretty much unrelenting in that book (and unlike the First Law books it is clear from the start that all the characters are horrible people) so it that bothers him he'd probably hate it. He might prefer The Heroes or Red Country because they're a bit more varied in terms of characterisation, there's still plenty of cynicism but unlike the earlier books some of the characters do end up being better people than they may have appeared to be at the start of the book, even if others go in the opposite direction.

Personally I think it's the other way around. I thought Best Served Cold was much better than Red Country. Unlike all the other books, Best Served Cold might have started out cynical with rotten people, but compared to all the others, it ended much more optimistically. By optimistic, I mean Bayaz didn't win, and Monza was in place to be a competent ruler who just might put everything right-ish (Red Country implies she does). Part of the reason I liked Best Served Cold so much is that it is the only book where Bayaz doesn't win. I hate Bayaz. He's a great character, he does a very effective job of making me hate him. Not many villains do that. I usually either don't care or have a sort of admiration for their style. Bayaz, yeah, I just hate Bayaz. I wanted Black Dow to win in Heroes for no other reason than because he was on the opposite side of Bayaz. I thought Heroes was better than Red Country, but not as good as Best Served Cold.

Red Country had a sorta, kinda, not really happy ending that honestly felt forced. Compared to the other books it didn't really have a cohesive plot. In the other books, the cynicism was a part of the story, and actually seemed to serve a purpose. I still actually cared about the characters. Every part of Red Country seemed to exist for the purpose of saying "Yeah, the world sucks. These people's lives suck. But that doesn't matter because they're all awful people." The Western theme felt kinda forced, and it definitely felt out of place in the broader setting, again existing only so we can go "yeah, the real life Wild West sucked." But you know what, I saw Unforgiven, I know the Wild West sucked, and that had a much better story.

Personally not a huge fan of Shy or Temple. Nothing especially bad about either of them, I just didn't find them as interesting as any of the leads from the other books. Also, have to say I didn't care for the way Cosca was turned into the villain in Red Country. Sorta. Saying he was the villain would imply it had a plot that mattered. Not saying he was ever a good guy, but he wasn't that bad before.

And this is really just a nitpick, but gee, thanks for letting us know what happened to just about every single other character from the trilogy and the stand alone books, except Glokta. Would it have been so hard to just mention him once? It's not like there were no members of the Inquisition in Red Country who could have mentioned him in passing. It wouldn't have been any more forced than hearing "news" from that guy who informed us about what happened to Calder, Dogman, and Monza.

[Quijote Light]

You need to spoiler tag your entire post.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte]

So will joe abercrombie's new book star all the kids of the previous heroes? ?

I think even monzcarro got pregnant by the end of BSC right?

Oh and I'm getting a creepy vibe from:

Jezal+Terez=3 kids// Robert+Cersei=3 kids.

both wifes were hot and hated their husbands hehe. ..

[Quijote Light]

Spoiler tags. Fuck's sake.

[Eponine]

I didn't like BSC to the point that I'm not sure i want to read anymore. The trilogy was good but not mind blowing, and everyone says the Heroes is the best, but I'm pretty burnt out.

The first 200 pages were great, but after that, the characterization got incredibly tedious. Skirt smoothing and braid pulling type tedious, although obviously manifested in more broken and violent ways. It just felt like it was going on endlessly.

[SeanF]

So will joe abercrombie's new book star all the kids of the previous heroes? ?

I think even monzcarro got pregnant by the end of BSC right?

Oh and I'm getting a creepy vibe from:

Jezal+Terez=3 kids// Robert+Cersei=3 kids.

both wifes were hot and hated their husbands hehe. ..

I'd be interested in getting a Terez POV in a later book.

BSC spoiler

She's had to put up with seeing her whole family wiped out, on top of an unhappy marriage.

[Veltigar]

I think you should spoiler tag your entire post. My reply to your post can be found in the spoiler tag below (don't read if you haven't read the standalones)

Personally I think it's the other way around. I thought Best Served Cold was much better than Red Country. Unlike all the other books, Best Served Cold might have started out cynical with rotten people, but compared to all the others, it ended much more optimistically. By optimistic, I mean Bayaz didn't win, and Monza was in place to be a competent ruler who just might put everything right-ish (Red Country implies she does). Part of the reason I liked Best Served Cold so much is that it is the only book where Bayaz doesn't win. I hate Bayaz. He's a great character, he does a very effective job of making me hate him. Not many villains do that. I usually either don't care or have a sort of admiration for their style. Bayaz, yeah, I just hate Bayaz. I wanted Black Dow to win in Heroes for no other reason than because he was on the opposite side of Bayaz. I thought Heroes was better than Red Country, but not as good as Best Served Cold.

It's been a while since I read BSC (and honestley I don't want to read it again. It was the only Abercrombie book I didn't like) but I would say that it's almost the opposite for me. I thought Red Country ended much more happily and upbeat than Best Served Cold (the exception being Cosca's death). Logen Ninefingers finally accepted who he is instead of whining about it 24/7, Shy and Temple had a bit of a happy ending, the actor bloke managed to pull off his greatest performance, Dab Sweet stands to earn a shitload of money, the Red Country is free of the union and the dragon people, the leader of the Resistance escaped and managed to give her operation a new impulse by stealing the treasure, etc. Even Cosca's death was intended in part as a happy ending (sadly, the writing did not convince me so I think that it has a very weak conclusion), since Cosca's was now finally free of the pain he dragged with him (and inflicted on others).

On the other hand BSC had Shivers turning from one of the few stand out guys in the series to a freaking monster, it had Cosca taking control of his mercs again (which he used to destroy that city) and in Monza it created a new monster (she's a horrible person, imo she's worse than most people in Abercrombie's books), BSC also meant the loss of one of Jezals only friends (Bremer dan Gorst lost his honor) and the slaughter now goes three ways in stead of two parties (the people of Stygia will suffer. Because now they have three parties fighting for the possesion of the land).

Personally not a huge fan of Shy or Temple. Nothing especially bad about either of them, I just didn't find them as interesting as any of the leads from the other books. Also, have to say I didn't care for the way Cosca was turned into the villain in Red Country. Sorta. Saying he was the villain would imply it had a plot that mattered. Not saying he was ever a good guy, but he wasn't that bad before.

Tsss, Of couse he was. Cosca was a bad guy through and through. Red Country just really showed what a bad man inhabited his body when the masks fell off. But it also showed what a troubled guy he was. I do not support his ending (I thought it was the weakest written part of the book and besides Logen Cosca was the only character I still really cared for in the books), but I get where it came from.

Cosca was a sad and troubled man, who in his quest for "salvation" took a lot of good men down with him, he met his end in a god forsaken place at the hand of someone (who like the reader) used to think that Cosca was one of the greatest heroes in the circle of the world. But he obviously was not. He was a sad man and in his sadness he made the world around him a worse place than it already was. Giving him peace was - in a way - a very happy ending, even though he didn't go out with a bang (which was to be expected in an Abercrombie novel).

[Stubby]

[MOD]

This thread is tagged as having spoilers for books 1-3.

If you are going to post material from the standalones, consider others and use the spoiler function.

[/MOD]

[SeanF]

BSC/ARCSpoilers

I thought Cosca had sunk very low by the time of A Red Country, and wasn't sorry about his end.

Monza was downright evil (even if not quite as evil as we're initially led to believe). So are Vitari and Shenkt. Styria will suffer under that trio. Yet, I couldn't help liking Monza, for some reason.

[KingGendry]

At least say which book your spoiler tag is for, I opened the above one thinking it was for the trilogy. It isn't.

Anyway, halfway through BSC at the moment, liking the references to TFL trilogy but I'm struggling to connect with the lead characters as much.

[Goodbye World]

At least say which book your spoiler tag is for, I opened the above one thinking it was for the trilogy. It isn't.

Seconded, although I made the same request several pages ago and no one cared. How hard is it to write the name of the book before the spoiler tags?

[lojzelote]

Yes, definitely entertaining. I love the dark humor, and this book is really dark. You'd think that Logen might hesitate for a moment before stabbing a 14yr old in the throat, but no, not even a second thought.

My mind must have been malformed by ASoIaF where fourteen-year-old boys are nearly men grown and therefore more or less a fair game because it never occured to me that the scene could have any other outcome.

That was my favorite moment of the first book.

I found "Bloody 9"'s passages terribly disturbing since the first appearance. That guy clearly wasn't all right in his head.

Everyone in the First Law is a douchenozzle in some way. It's almost like the author was a cynical bastard with a dark humour.

Well, Dogman is okay; he only kills enemies and mostly in battle. Collem West is ... passing. In real life, I would be hesitant to defend him, but here I could get inside his mind, and he truly seemed to regret what what he did. Plus, that I also wanted to b*tchslap his victim during the moments before the incident really helped, too.

From the secondary characters, Ardee West is fine. Yulwei. Carlot dan Eider. Malacus Quai. The rest of the Northern band isn't all that bad either (at one point on a certain deserted farm they even reminded me of Robin Hood & his merry co), especially so Forley the Weakest. Black Dow may have a reputation, but we didn't witness any of his reportedly horrifying deeds, so ...

Although admittedly, some of them didn't get very far.

Spoilers for the first 3 books ahead...

I'm with you guys. After the B9 came out for the first time in Book 1, and then especially after he tells about the first time as a kid, I kind of expected Logen to be as he was.

Opposite Free Northman though, Glokta was by far my favorite and cherished character, right from the first chapter. I don't know what that says about me, but it is what it is. I just understand and can relate to him I guess.

Since I've finished the trilogy I'll give some final thoughts since I started the thread and all (starting BSC today on audio). I suppose the ending disappointed me a little. I felt like the Hundred Words were not played up enough throughout the series, and then disappointed when they did (finally) show up for Bayaz. We meet an eater or four throughout the books... but to be as powerful as they supposedly are, they just didn't seem to do much other than show up and get razed. It seemed as if Khalul (or his minion, I already forget his name, how memorable he was) was keeping them in the shadows, for some unknown or unexplained reason. Much like the Feared too, although the final battle with Logen was a big payoff. But to be the Level 100 tank carrying a +8 Broadsword of Devastation, he had very little screen time in battles, other than the one where 3Trees get is. But anyway, really those are minor gripes.

[ETA for clarity]: -> What I was trying to say there is that if these creatures are as powerful as they are portrayed to be, they wouldn't need to hide in the shadows to avoid being noticed. What could anyone other than magi do to stop them? So it seemed to me like they were acting out of fear of something unknown/unexplained, but maybe I missed something. </edit>

Bayaz was done well, douchenozzle he turned out to be. I hope Abercrombie goes on to contine the story re: Bayaz/Khalul, but I'm pretty sure I'm pulling for Khalul at this point. Ferro's continued adventures would be a fun read too.

Was glad to see Ardee and West get some resolution, and my man Glokta getting the keys to the kingdom.

I'm with you on Bayaz vs Khalul. Not that I would be delusional enough to think that Khalul is less despicable, but he didn't disappoint me and he's almost certainly right about Juvens' death. I wonder though, if Utman is such a strong personality as he has been presented, or if he's just another powerless figurehead puppet. IIRC, Ferro personally knew him and according to her he wasn't a suffering victim, but maybe he is a Calder/Scale kind of man, who is too dumb to understand the situation he's found himself in.

On the other hand, I share The hairy bear's and Free Northman's view on Glokta. While I wasn't attached to any of the three main characters, Glokta I couldn't stand from the very beginning. Don't get me wrong, I was interested in his storyline, it was perhaps even my favorite one, but the character itself ... well, while reading his POV I adopted his Why do I do this mantra. I continued because I enjoyed (most of) the story. He continued to torture (often completely innocent - which he was perfectly aware of) suspects on the orders of a deplorable megaloman he personally hated because ... of his feelings of nihilism? ... because returning to his controlling mommy dearest would just so boring? He didn't even need any job. He sure never mentioned his noble family had any sort of existential problems. Yeah, as far as I am concerned certain things smarts and humor do not redeem. My "it's just fiction" mode of mind only goes so far.

Anyway, I wonder why Ardee was so keen to wash his sh*t.

In the end, out of the three main characters, the one I got closest to liking is Jezal. I thought he was terribly irritating for most of time, but he was the least morally shady and he actually ended up being a better human being than he had been in the beginning. I really felt bad for him.

No, because I think people have severely misinterpreted ASOIAF, and that the early shocks (like Ned's beheading) and the mid series shocks (like the Red Wedding) are merely creating the foundation for a tremendous return for our heroes. With some tragic losses along the way ahead, undoubtedly.

But it will in the end be a Time for Wolves. Martin hasn't subverted the tropes nearly as much as people seem to think. He has just disguised the traditional story with a bit of gore and tribulation along the way.

A Feast for Crows didn't show many scenes with the NW brothers in it (discounting Samwell ... and I doubt the book was named for him), so I don't think that the name neccessarily points to the Starks getting on an awesome revenge spree and a happy end. Personally, I am of the mind that it refers to "hour of the wolf", that hasn't got exactly positive connotations. The ending won't be a total downer, I'm sure, but having read some of GRRM's short stories taught me not to be too hopeful.

What you need to realize is that nothing has ended. Absolutely nothing. The war goes on and Bayaz has a very small advantage now. That's the brilliant part of it.

This is actually a great point. Things still could improve. At least a little bit.

Ah, Logen is not worse than Black Dow, of course, but the Bloody Nine is 100% him, part of him, what makes Logen Logen, and it's visible that outside of Bloody Nine mode, Logen is still a violent guy looking for violent encounters, and fame, and power. You can never have too many knives, heh? (well, except when you're drowning and the knives bring you down, but that's to be expected)

TBH, even with the advantage of hindsight, I don't consider that saying as disconcerting as some apparently do. My grandmother, for one, had one of her own that (in translation to English) "clumsy flesh must be cut" which means that clumsy people will hurt themselves and the pain will teach them to be more able. She certainly didn't cut off my fingers when I was attempting to sew and wasn't very good at it. The quote above could just as well be a favorite of a passionate boy scout. And given what scum one can meet the FL world while travelling, have a few knives and know how to use them might not be such a bad idea even for a peaceful, law-abiding citizen.

@ SeanF,

I'd be interested in getting a Terez POV in a later book. She's had to put up with seeing her whole family wiped out, on top of an unhappy marriage.

My eyes burrrn! Remember, what is seen cannot be unseen. If you add spoiler tags now, it might not be still too late for some!