Can a Jon Snow + Daenerys romance work in the final book?

[LordStoneheart]

Oh, please, I don't have time to go into the a teenager doesn't know what she likes argument again. She said he was hot from day one and the first night she was "excited" so make of that what you will. I'm going to take her word for it.

You're right.

Dany looked at Khal Drogo. His face was hard and cruel, his eyes as cold and dark as onyx. Her brother hurt her sometimes, when she woke the dragon, but he did not frighten her the way this man frightened her. "I don't want to be his queen," she heard herself say in a small, thin voice. "Please, please, Viserys, I don't want to, I want to go home."

He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep. Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night . . .

My mistake, she liked him from day one...

[Le Cygne]

You're right.

Dany is right. Throughout all of that (and just before what you quoted), Vicerys is tormenting her. Grab all the quotes out of context you like, but ultimately, she tells us she finds him very attractive and desirable. Ignore her if you like.

The girl scrubbed her back and her feet and told her how lucky she was... There was more like that, so much more, what a handsome man the khal was, so tall and fierce, fearless in battle, the best rider ever to mount a horse, a demon archer...

The slave girl had not been far wrong, she thought. Khal Drogo was a head taller than the tallest man in the room, yet somehow light on his feet, as graceful as the panther in Illyrio’s menagerie. He was younger than she’d thought, no more than thirty. His skin was the color of polished copper, his thick mustachios bound with gold and bronze rings... Drogo’s braid was black as midnight and heavy with scented oil, hung with tiny bells that rang softly as he moved. It swung well past his belt, below even his buttocks, the end of it brushing against the back of his thighs.

And last of all, Khal Drogo brought forth his own bride gift to her. An expectant hush rippled out from the center of the camp as he left her side, growing until it had swallowed the whole khalasar. When he returned, the dense press of Dothraki gift-givers parted before him, and he led the horse to her.

She was a young filly, spirited and splendid. Dany knew just enough about horses to know that this was no ordinary animal. There was something about her that took the breath away. She was grey as the winter sea, with a mane like silver smoke.

Hesitantly she reached out and stroked the horse’s neck, ran her fingers through the silver of her mane. Khal Drogo said something in Dothraki and Magister Illyrio translated. “Silver for the silver of your hair, the khal says.”

“She’s beautiful,” Dany murmured...

The silver horse leapt the flames as if she had wings. When she pulled up before Magister Illyrio, she said, “Tell Khal Drogo that he has given me the wind.” The fat Pentoshi stroked his yellow beard as he repeated her words in Dothraki, and Dany saw her new husband smile for the first time.

Perhaps he had only that word, she thought, but it was one word more than she had known he had, and somehow it made her feel a little better. Drogo touched her hair lightly, sliding the silver-blond strands between his fingers and murmuring softly in Dothraki. Dany did not understand the words, yet there was warmth in the tone, a tenderness she had never expected from this man...

He put his finger under her chin and lifted her head, so she was looking up into his eyes. Drogo towered over her as he towered over everyone. Taking her lightly under the arms, he lifted her and seated her on a rounded rock beside the stream. Then he sat on the ground facing her, legs crossed beneath him, their faces finally at a height...

His long heavy braid was coiled in the dirt beside him. He pulled it over his right shoulder and began to remove the bells from his hair, one by one. After a moment Dany leaned forward to help...

He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and she looked into his eyes. “No?” he said, and she knew it was a question.

She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. “Yes,” she whispered as she put his finger inside her.

Long after the moon had risen, they sat together, talking. That night, when Khal Drogo came, Dany was waiting for him. He stood in the door of her tent and looked at her with surprise. She rose slowly and opened her sleeping silks and let them fall to the ground. "This night we must go outside, my lord," she told him, for the Dothraki believed that all things of importance in a man's life must be done beneath the open sky.

Khal Drogo followed her out into the moonlight, the bells in his hair tinkling softly. A few yards from her tent was a bed of soft grass, and it was there that Dany drew him down. When he tried to turn her over, she put a hand on his chest. "No," she said. "This night I would look on your face."

There is no privacy in the heart of the khalasar. Dany felt the eyes on her as she undressed him, heard the soft voices as she did the things that Doreah had told her to do. It was nothing to her. Was she not khaleesi? His were the only eyes that mattered, and when she mounted him she saw something there that she had never seen before. She rode him as fiercely as ever she had ridden her silver, and when the moment of his pleasure came, Khal Drogo called out her name.

She remembered the night of her first wedding, when Khal Drogo had claimed her maidenhead beneath the stranger stars. She remembered how frightened she had been, and how excited. Would it be the same with Hizdahr? No. I am not the girl I was, and he is not my sun-and-stars.

The sky was blue, the grass was green, and I was full of hope. Ser Jorah had been with her then, her gruff old bear. She’d had Irri and Jhiqui and Doreah to care for her, her sun-and-stars to hold her in the night, his child growing inside her. Rhaego. I was going to name him Rhaego, and the dosh khaleen said he would be the Stallion Who Mounts the World. Not since those half-remembered days in Braavos when she lived in the house with the red door had she been as happy.

[Dicer]

Dany is right. Throughout all of that (and just before what you quoted), Vicerys is tormenting her. Grab all the quotes out of context you like, but ultimately, she tells us she finds him very attractive and desirable. Ignore her if you like.

Ugh.

Dany made the best out of a horrible situation. She fell in love with her rapist because that was the only way to survive through the nightmare of a 13 yr old forced into a marriage with a man she feared. It shows her tenacity to survive, to play the game, to make lemonade out of the lemons life handed to her. It's not romantic in the slightest and I don't see Drogo as Dany's type just because she fell in love with him.

[Le Cygne]

It's not romantic in the slightest and I don't see Drogo as Dany's type just because she fell in love with him.

GRRM said it's "romantic" and Dany is considered an "adult" in Westeros. Lots of teenage sex in this story. Lots more to come, no doubt.

[Dicer]

Yeah, I disagree with GRRM's definition of 'romantic' in this instance. He may have meant it and written it as 'romantic' but as a reader I certainly don't see it as such. That's my prerogative.

Things like consent, the ability to give informed consent, having agency, being able to refuse sex, having a level of maturity etc. plays a part in what I see as 'romantic' relationships.

I think Lyanna/Rhaegar (If they eloped) would be a tragic romance. If Jaime/Brienne happens in the future it could be romantic.

In this case Dany could not refuse Drogo even if she wanted to. Hence she had to do the next best thing available to her which was to try and enjoy it. As she says, she was close to taking her own life. Instead she survived. I admire that about her.

[Le Cygne]

As she says, she was close to taking her own life. Instead she survived. I admire that about her.

Again, Vicerys was threatening her, telling her not to show Drogo how she felt, so she hid her face in the pillow after the hard riding caused saddle sores/discomfort. That's what Dany says. She also says she took pleasure in being with Drogo after the saddle sores healed, and as you can see, once she told Drogo how she wanted it, and he was more than willing to make her happy, she loved being with him. GRRM said Jason Momoa was the perfect Khal Drogo, pretty fine.

[Han Snow]

1) Thank the old gods and the new that Jon isn’t Daario :P

2) I would say that Dany fits Jon’s type better than most people want to admit. Jon does not fancy warriors, Jon is attracted to strong women. I mean look at his track record: his mother is Lyanna, his favorite sibling is Arya, he started to care about Ygritte, he flirts with Val, he appreciates Alys, …

You can say a lot about Dany, but not that she is not a strong woman.

3) Dany seems to fancy the dangerous warrior/leader type (let’s call it the warlord from now on). That’s about the only thing Pedo drogo and Daario the fabulous have in common. They were both warlords (be it on different scales). Now, Jon himself is a warrior (and a good one), he’s a leader and he has a very real hint of danger clinging to him. In a way he’s a lot more threatening than pedo drogo and Daario, but the difference of course lies in the fact that Jon is a good guy at heart. I think Dany would be very drawn to him.

Not saying that a Jon + Dany thing will ever happen, but it’s a lot more credible than some people make it out to be

Yep.

[Han Snow]

Again, Vicerys was threatening her, telling her not to show Drogo how she felt, so she hid her face in the pillow after the hard riding caused saddle sores/discomfort. That's what Dany says. She also says she took pleasure in being with Drogo after the saddle sores healed, and as you can see, once she told Drogo how she wanted it, and he was more than willing to make her happy, she loved being with him. GRRM said Jason Momoa was the perfect Khal Drogo, pretty fine.

This, in no way whatsoever denies the truth of this

Yeah, I disagree with GRRM's definition of 'romantic' in this instance. He may have meant it and written it as 'romantic' but as a reader I certainly don't see it as such. That's my prerogative.

Things like consent, the ability to make informed consent, having agency, being able to refuse sex, having a level of maturity etc. plays a part in what I see as 'romantic' relationships.

I think Lyanna/Rhaegar (If they eloped) would be a tragic romance. If Jaime/Brienne happens in the future it could be romantic.

In this case Dany could not refuse Drogo even if she wanted to. Hence she had to do the next best thing available to her which was to try and enjoy it. As she says, she was close to taking her own life. Instead she survived. I admire that about her.

Google Stockholm syndrome.

But all this is besides the point because as I said earlier, people can fall for completely different people personality wise, looks wise, etc.

Redheads, blondes, brunettes, bring them all! ;) Jon could certainly fall in love with some innocent helpless girl as much as he can fall in love or learn to love the Mother Of Dragons. Same with Dany.

If it happens GRRM will make it believable, no doubt in my mind. If it doesn't, it doesn't. It is all about how he envisioned HIS story.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1) Thank the old gods and the new that Jon isn’t Daario

true.

2) I would say that Dany fits Jon’s type better than most people want to admit. Jon does not fancy warriors, Jon is attracted to strong women. I mean look at his track record: his mother is Lyanna, his favorite sibling is Arya, he started to care about Ygritte, he flirts with Val, he appreciates Alys, …

You can say a lot about Dany, but not that she is not a strong woman.

Jon fancies strong warrior women and Dany isn’t one.

3) Dany seems to fancy the dangerous warrior/leader type (let’s call it the warlord from now on). That’s about the only thing Pedo drogo and Daario the fabulous have in common. They were both warlords (be it on different scales). Now, Jon himself is a warrior (and a good one), he’s a leader and he has a very real hint of danger clinging to him. In a way he’s a lot more threatening than pedo drogo and Daario, but the difference of course lies in the fact that Jon is a good guy at heart. I think Dany would be very drawn to him.

Νο. Jon isn’t a kind of guy who shows of he is more a silent power. Dany is into showing of.

Not saying that a Jon + Dany thing will ever happen, but it’s a lot more credible than some people make it out to be

There is no foreshadowing that this will happen unlike of other relationships.

[Beorn Snow]

Marriages for love seldom work out in these stories.

Jon and Dany are both practical leaders who would be willing to consummate a marriage for political purposes. One such purpose might be to keep south and north part of Westeros united politically.

[David Selig]

All this talk about "not her type" or "not his type" is hilarious considering these two have had a grand total of 3 romantic relationships in their lives, 2 of which were forced on them. And they are still in their mid teens.

[Dornishwoman's Husband]

Jon Dany live in the end of the novels and rule the Seven Kingdoms. That is very unlikely to happen. But there might be other types of bittersweet ending such as:

1. Jon and Daenerys love each other with a passion, but they both die in the end.

2. Jon Snow lives, but Dany dies giving a birth to Jon's son and heir.

3. Dany lives, Jon dies, but not before he make her pregnant.

[Audrey Arryn]

Im not a big fan of this ship, but I dont write off the possibilities.

I mean Jon marrying Dany is a good way for his legitimacy of being a Targaryen to be taken seriously.

I always thought the marriage b/n Dany marrying Aegon to prove his legititmacy was foreshadowing of Dany marrying Jon for the southron people to believe he is a Targaryen.

The marriage can happen but it doesn't mean both will survive the series.

However I hope it does not happen.

[Veltigar]

snip

Well written post! I especially like the part about Jons attraction to rebels. However I think Jon is a bit more charismatic than you give him credit for. I mean the ladies practically fling himself at him when they meet him :P

[space]

if R+L=J (which im pretty sure it does) I dont think a jon/dany romance could work or would ever come up...obviously the targaryens have their own view on incest, but I dont think GRRM would develop a romantic relationship between two of the "heroes" that are literally aunt and nephew...the ONLY way I could ever see this happening is if Jon doesnt know R+L=J...even then...its still pretty fucking gross no matter how you cut it

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Yeah, I disagree with GRRM's definition of 'romantic' in this instance. He may have meant it and written it as 'romantic' but as a reader I certainly don't see it as such. That's my prerogative.

Things like consent, the ability to give informed consent, having agency, being able to refuse sex, having a level of maturity etc. plays a part in what I see as 'romantic' relationships.

I do agree with these sentiments, however what we must bear in mind is the time context of these relationships. Dany and Drogo and indeed Jon and Ygritte's relationship take place within a sort of medieval time setting where it is more difficult to apply our own contemporary modern norms of what we deem to be acceptable, and consensual in a relationship etc.

Back in the medieval times, women were lucky indeed if a partner found for them would end up being amenable to them. As hard as it may be to accept, when we take Drogo and Dany's relationship in terms of its medieval context, she would be considered the exception rather than the norm because as unfavourable as the circumstances surrounding their relationship was at the beginning, against all the odds, they do actually fall in love. Whether that might be considered unconventional in our day and age? Absolutely. However, we must take the relationship as we see and find it in its context.

[random girl from westeros]

That Dany is not a warrior? Bitch burned Astapor

[Jon's Queen Consort]

That Dany is not a warrior? Bitch burned Astapor

she never fought any battles she used dragons. This doesn't make her a warrior.

[Veltigar]

Jon fancies strong warrior women and Dany isn’t one.

Was Arya a warrior?

Was Alys a warrior?

Do we even know if Val is a warrior? IIRC there were some pretty good ideas about her being some sort of priestess.

What you are unwilling to admit is that Jon is drawn to strong women. And when I say strong I’m talking about strength of character, not about being good at throwing a spear or something as pointless as that. I mean let’s take a look at his relationships so far:

He’s the son of Lyanna: Who found it in her heart to defend a young crannogman, low on the social ladder, out of the goodness of her heart. A woman who defied social customs and expectations to run off with her true love.

His favorite sibling is Arya: The girl who could play with everyone regardless of position (Mycah), who’s fond of him regardless of his status as bastard. A girl who dreamed of something else than being married to an empty headed young knight. A girl who had the courage to act accordingly to her own dreams.

He came to care for Ygritte: a strong woman, who saw his worth. One who kept loyal to her people and who was willing to fight for her life and that of her people instead of passively waiting until darkness came to claim her.

He felt attracted to Val: She’s a capable woman, he recognizes her beauty and he realizes her dedication to her people and her nephew. However, he was seriously putt off by her attitude towards Shireen. Because her reaction towards Shireen was not that of the woman Jon thought she was. It showed that she could not care for a little girl, disfigured and worthless in her eyes.

There was electricity with Alys: A girl who found the courage to escape, scantily clad and with nothing but a horse. But she was willing to take the gamble instead of giving herself up to her uncles. Afterwards she was willing to trust Jon and she had the strength of will to overcome Northern prejudices and her own fear and marry Sigorn. And again she has a kind heart, since she agreed to send Jon her elderly to help on the Wall.

A negative example for a change: He genuinely dislikes Selyse. A woman who has not a shred of compassion in her heart, a woman without courage, one of the weakest persons in the entire series (and that says a lot).

Now let’s take a look at Dany:

Is she strong? Yes, she found the courage to carry on. Even after the death of her Khal and son. She picked up the pieces and carried on. She had the courage and the compassion to break up the slave-economy, even though at the time she started she could have actively benefitted by just letting it all be.

Is she kind? Yes, she cares for her (human) children. She tried to help Eroeh and others and that was before she had become master of her own destiny. She stood to gain nothing from intervening and yet she did. And after she took up the control of her own life, she still cared for people. She destroyed slavery in Astapor. So that no mothers should have to lose their babies anymore. She freed the Yunkish slaves and punished the slavers of Meereen for their atrocity while freeing their slaves as well. In Meereen, rather than dispatching the farmer who supposedly lost his girl to Drogon to her dungeons, she tried to chain up her dragons. And keep them from harming her people. She married Hizzie, forsaking her own happiness, to stop the murders on her people. She went out to take care of those suffering from the Pale Mare, risking her own life. There is ample evidence of Dany being kind, you might question her methods sometimes but never her intentions.

Νο. Jon isn’t a kind of guy who shows of he is more a silent power. Dany is into showing of.

That’s like, your opinion, dude. I have seen nothing of the sort. It’s not the showing off that draws Dany near. It’s the warlord aspect that appeals to Dany.

Jon, like Daario and Drogo, is a warlord. He’s a warrior and he’s a leader of men. You are right that Jon is more internal (although a lot of that has to do with the introspective nature of Northern culture as opposed to the outlandish, extravert nature of Dothraki and Tyroshi culture), but that’s beside the point. What matters is that Jon is a natural leader, a capable warrior and he has that hint of danger (the silent wolf, the scars, the berserker episodes,…) clinging to him (also Jon might not like showing of much but he has done it before e.g. when the Wildlings were led through, when “Mance” was executed, etc.) That’s what appeals to Dany and Jon has something Drogo and Daario lack: he’s kind at heart. That too is something that Dany seeks (look at her reaction to Daario’s proposal for a Meerenese RW) and has not yet found (her dreams about the home with the red door).

There is no foreshadowing that this will happen unlike of other relationships.

At the risk of being disappointed about what you consider to be foreshadowing: present it (or better yet link me to a thread).

And again, what I was disputing was the fact that they could never be attracted to each other (total ballocks) not that it will ever happen (More likely than not imo but you are free to believe otherwise).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Was Arya a warrior?

Was Alys a warrior?

Do we even know if Val is a warrior? IIRC there were some pretty good ideas about her being some sort of priestess.

At the risk of being disappointed about what you consider to be foreshadowing: present it (or better yet link me to a thread).

And again, what I was disputing was the fact that they could never be attracted to each other (total ballocks) not that it will ever happen (More likely than not imo but you are free to believe otherwise).

Arya is a warrior and an assassin.

We have never seen him flirting with Alys.

He said that Val is a warrion in Dance,

as for the foreshadowing look at here