Sansa's fate.

[Winter's Knight]

I think on the basis of season 3, all of the complexity, the strength of character that we see in Sansa's character arc in the book was just accidental. GRRM did not mean anything by the complexity and flashes of strength that he gave book Sansa, otherwise he would not have allowed the show to make Sansa both weak and sweet.*

Also the show edited out her religiosity, which had the potential to make her strong like Margaret Beaufort.

*in the wrong places: book Sansa would never have been rude to her Septa, but book 3 Sansa would not have been so foolish as to be so charming to Tyrion after their marriage.

Season three does not exist. For some reason D&D decided to just go from season two to four.

You cannot convince me otherwise.

[Le Cygne]

It's one of the best and most frustrating.

Very frustrating. At the end of the day, you can only push a person so far. Something's got to give, and the tension has been building and building and building... I hope it's good! :)

[voodooqueen126]

Season three does not exist. For some reason D&D decided to just go from season two to four.

You cannot convince me otherwise.

But it does, and the changes they made, they made with the permission with the author. Remember that D&D, like GRRM are men, and men are not fully human.

[Petyr Patter]

*in the wrong places: book Sansa would never have been rude to her Septa, but book 3 Sansa would not have been so foolish as to be so charming to Tyrion after their marriage.

Well, we have exactly two scenes with them together. First, she calls Tyrion a pervert. Look, no man wants to be called a pervert. Just strikes to close to home. Sure, they find some common ground as 'outcasts,' but frankly I saw Sansa's suggestion of "sheep shifting" entirely to childish for the "fear of death" Tyrion. They aren't a happy couple in that scene by a long shot. Second scene, she is in tears sobbing and says nothing.

Frankly, the contrast did a great job of setting up the rest of their marriage together. No matter what, she is a prisoner to the family that murdered (indirectly) her family. Until that dynamic changes (and it will), their marriage is doomed to unhappiness, and we, the viewer (not just the reader) knows why.

[Le Cygne]

Well, we've hashed that out on the other forum, but let's just say the books are Independent George and the show is Relationship George.

[manting]

I thought it was pretty well established that sweetsleep will do SR in. Maetser Coleman sets it up pretty clearly. "But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer." This is after he talks about possible nose bleeds and how sweetsleep doesn't leave the flesh. One dose after a fit and it would look natural or Coleman could be blamed. Poison isn't really necessary - just too much medicine. As for Sansa's fate Im confused - this is a sword and sorcery epic, albeit a very nuanced and political one, but still a sword and sorcery epic. It seems to me the most important event of the series will be the war against the others. Remember that we are reminded several times that the conflicts for the Iron Throne are unimportant compared to the war with the others. I cant see how Sansa will play a huge role in that. She has no skill at arms, no leadership experience in terms of military ability, and no magic. Perhaps she will help bring the Vale in, but wouldn't they fight the others regardless? Also do any prophecies reference her directly and clearly - besides the one about the poison hairnet, and the one about her ripping up Roberts doll? There are numerous prophecies that cover other characters, and the important actions they will take. We see the red priests and priestess have viewings about other key characters - I don't recall any about her. I would guess the answer I would receive would be the Maggy prophecy to Cersei about a younger prettier queen but I think that is Dany though I could be wrong.

[Winter's Knight]

But it does, and the changes they made, they made with the permission with the author. Remember that D&D, like GRRM are men, and men are not fully human.

As a fan, I am endowed with certain inalienable rights amongst which is the Right to Fanon Discontinuity, which I apply to Star Trek:The Final Frontier, Maggi the Plot Device and GoT S3.

[voodooqueen126]

Well, we have exactly two scenes with them together. First, she calls Tyrion a pervert. Look, no man wants to be called a pervert. Just strikes to close to home. Sure, they find some common ground as 'outcasts,' but frankly I saw Sansa's suggestion of "sheep shifting" entirely to childish for the "fear of death" Tyrion. They aren't a happy couple in that scene by a long shot. Second scene, she is in tears sobbing and says nothing.

Frankly, the contrast did a great job of setting up the rest of their marriage together. No matter what, she is a prisoner to the family that murdered (indirectly) her family. Until that dynamic changes (and it will), their marriage is doomed to unhappiness, and we, the viewer (not just the reader) knows why.

yeah but ugly men with no luck with women will interpret even the slightest smile or responsiveness in conversation as a pass/an invitation... if she is attractive, because all men think they are entitled to supermodels. Trust me on this one: if you don't want to deal with annoying passes from SUWFs, then you have to be cold enough that they go blue in the nuts.

[Wouter]

Absolutely! In fact, she is already someone else. Alayne Stone. IMO she will remain a Stone. As Alayne Stone, the natural daughter of someboby,

she is an acceptable match for Sandor Clegane.

Alayne stone is not "the natural daughter of somebody", she is the natural daughter of the lord protector of the vale and lord paramount of the riverlands. That is to say, even without her actual identity known she is high-profile. Very soon, she will become a local celebrity with her being friends with myranda and in the frame for marriage with harry.

More over, plenty of people would recognize her as either Alayne or sansa. And bran would probably be able to find her anywhere. Tyrion also has unfinished business with her and will probably get dany involved in that, too. Difficult to remain hidden, then.

[Wouter]

*in the wrong places: book Sansa would never have been rude to her Septa, but book 3 Sansa would not have been so foolish as to be so charming to Tyrion after their marriage.

Book 3 tyrion wasn't near as nice to her as s3 tyrion was, though. And she still didn't kneel, allthough she noticed joff taking the stool, until tyrion asked her to (something which he failed to do in the book).

[David Selig]

I think on the basis of season 3, all of the complexity, the strength of character that we see in Sansa's character arc in the book was just accidental. GRRM did not mean anything by the complexity and flashes of strength that he gave book Sansa, otherwise he would not have allowed the show to make Sansa both weak and sweet.*

Also the show edited out her religiosity, which had the potential to make her strong like Margaret Beaufort.

GRRM has no power to veto anything on the show. The showrunners do what they want and they don't need GRRM's permission.

[Wouter]

GRRM has no power to veto anything on the show. The showrunners do what they want and they don't need GRRM's permission.

Indeed. And they have to take the sensibilities of the TV public into account (just imagine the flak TV-Sansa would get if she was mean to Peter Dinklage's Tyrion).

I'm more concerned with some other things done to TV Sansa, like her wondering if her family would be invited for the wedding with Loras (really??) and the way the scene with the Hound during Blackwater played out. Many TV-only viewers still don't understand why she wouldn't escape with the Hound, and in the books it was abundantly clear why this was not an option.

[Wouter]

As for Sansa's fate Im confused - this is a sword and sorcery epic, albeit a very nuanced and political one, but still a sword and sorcery epic. It seems to me the most important event of the series will be the war against the others. Remember that we are reminded several times that the conflicts for the Iron Throne are unimportant compared to the war with the others. I cant see how Sansa will play a huge role in that. She has no skill at arms, no leadership experience in terms of military ability, and no magic. Perhaps she will help bring the Vale in, but wouldn't they fight the others regardless?

Sansa is a northern character with many ties to the south. I think she may play a role, during the war with the Others or in the aftermath, to get north and south to cooperate again (the north will soo have grave need for food, something which the Vale and maybe the Reach could provide). She will probably build strong ties in the Vale, as a Tully she may have some sway in the Riverlands, she knows a number of Tyrells personally, and if Tyrion gains Casterly Rock she has ties there as well.

Sansa is also possibly the first Stark to meet Dany, allthough Jon and Arya also have a shot at this (the meeting between Melisandre and Arya in the TV show suggests Arya may end up in the Stannis storyline first). Sansa is probably well suited for being the first contact between Starks and Dany as the latter could relate to her to some extent, Sansa's nature is to be polite and not do anything rash (which could be a problem with Dany who can be very harsh if she gets provoked) and she has a tendency to turn even nominal enemies into allies of sorts.

[Le Cygne]

Alayne stone is not "the natural daughter of somebody", she is the natural daughter of the lord protector of the vale and lord paramount of the riverlands.

And if he's gone, she's the "natural daughter" of a dead guy nobody mourns.

Many TV-only viewers still don't understand why she wouldn't escape with the Hound, and in the books it was abundantly clear why this was not an option.

And many book readers aren't so sure, either. It was a botched rescue attempt, they both saw it that way, looking back at what happened. She lay awake at night thinking she should have gone with him, and he thinks he should have taken her with him. There's nothing "abundantly clear" about that scene.

[Veltigar]

Losing another Stark would just be bitter, not bittersweet. GRRM cites as Lord of the Rings as example of bittersweet ending, and none of the (main) hobbits perished there. In contrast, he has already killed off scores of Starks and their closest supporters. Between Ned, Catelyn, Robb and probably Benjen the Stark losses have been stiff even before the horrendous losses among their soldiers/servants etc are factored in.

That’s what you think. It all depends on how GRRM choses to spin it. I for one would find it unrealistic if all the Starks left standing survive the series (And Tolkien should have killed some of those hobbits off. Never really liked them :P )

The Starks have been losing badly, at some time there has to come a time for wolves.

“A Time for Wolves” doesn’t necessary have to equate to “and now the Starks live happily ever after”. Personally, I always took that title as a call of duty to the remaining Starks. “A Time for Wolves” = it’s time for the Stark children to step up and save Westeros, each in their own way (even if they perish while doing so). I think he eventially changed the title into aDoS because aTfW is to Starkcentric. Other characters (Dany, Tyrion, ...) will also have their part to play in the saving of Westeros (and they to shall have to sacrifice)

As for your prediction for Sansa's future (post #71), I have one problem with that. I expect LF to be aware of Dany and to take her coming into account (allthough he wouldn't count on Tyrion being there, also). I don't see him ending up on the opposite side of Dany, not until Sansa and/or Tyrion have had opportunity to do something to warn and turn her against him.

But how would LF know that Dany is going to land into the Vale? Spies seem a bit unlikely and I don’t think he would send a negotiator or something like that. On top of that if he is prepared for Dany’s landing, wouldn’t he be more inclined to believe that she would hook up with Faegon down south?

I think Dany’s landing will come as quite a surprise to Westeros.

I also doubt Harry would turn out to be an outright villain; he may turn out to be like Robert but outright villainy seems a bit much for someone who is apparently held in some esteem by Yohn Royce.

1)

Yohn Royce wants to suck up to his future Lord (I think he would love to set up HtH with a Royce daughter). Also, I think that to be held in high esteem by Yohn Royce you just need to be a good fighter (looking had Royces own prowess and the way his sons acted) and HtH probably is a very good fighter.

2)

I didn’t mean that HtH is an outright villain. The HtH I envision is an arrogant douchebag with entitlement issues. I mean we know HtH already has two bastards (like Robert), he’s a good fighter and he’s the Heir to the Vale. The Royces and all those other Houses probably worship the very ground he walks upon to get in his good graces later on (and to hitch him to one of their daughters). I think that Sansa/HtH is going to mimic the Lyanna/Bob dynamic basically HtH will be completely swept off his feet by her, while Sansa herself would rather not be married to him. We know from the Bob/Lyanna thing that Bob was quite obsessed with Lyanna. His obsession with Lyanna was so strong that it basically took over his life

. I think that that’s what going to happen with HtH. He’ll be madly in love with her and then she would have the nerve to spurn him?( He who is beloved by all, any girl should count herself lucky with a guy like him). And then LF comes along and he says that there might be a way for him to get Sansa, and all he has to do is claim his birthright a bit sooner than expected. After all SR is just a sick boy, he’ll die soon enough, so why not give the Vale the strong Lord it deserves today? A Lord with the power to get a certain girl to marry him, without her permission.

Tyrion already went down a dark path in ADWD and looked to have started the way up again, after he started to cooperate with Penny. It looks unlikely he would regress in TWOW, allthough the eventual confrontation with the Lannisters has great potential to be ugly for Tyrion.

I think that for Tyrion the only way is up from now. Tyrion was at his best during aCoK, when he was able to play the game and take care of the people of KL. I think that a Queen that genuinely believes in freeing slaves and making a better world for her people could rekindle that little spark of decency that’s left somewhere inside Tyrion.

[Wouter]

And if he's gone, she's the "natural daughter" of a dead guy nobody mourns.

But well-known by the cream of the Vale nobility by that time, especially if LF takes his time to drop dead and she gets to know Harry quite a bit. I don't think "Alayne" could just vanish without anyone deciding to go look for her. She's not like "Arry from Flea Bottom", a nobody that no one cares for. IMO it's not going to be long before some people start to suspect the truth anyway, if Myranda and Shadrich don't already.

It wouldn't stop Bran from finding her, either, and Tyrion is near guaranteed to come looking for her too (and a very sudden natural daughter of LF would raise his interest, whether or not LF would be alive at the time).

And many book readers aren't so sure, either. It was a botched rescue attempt, they both saw it that way, looking back at what happened. She lay awake at night thinking she should have gone with him, and he thinks he should have taken her with him. There's nothing "abundantly clear" about that scene.

He was drunk and he threatened her with a knife. Why she didn't go with him is clear in the books. On TV, his offer was way more tempting and Sansa seemed to indicate she wasn't afraid of him ("you won't hurt me"). In the books, she was plain too scared by him to go, considering he was the threat to her at that very moment.

[Wouter]

But how would LF know that Dany is going to land into the Vale? Spies seem a bit unlikely and I don’t think he would send a negotiator or something like that. On top of that if he is prepared for Dany’s landing, wouldn’t he be more inclined to believe that she would hook up with Faegon down south?

I think Dany’s landing will come as quite a surprise to Westeros.

By AFFC/ADWD, a lot of people are aware that Dany has 3 dragons and an army of sorts (see the citadel, White Harbor,...). LF is well connected and is involved in trade with the free cities, at least one of which is perfectly aware of Daenerys (and planning to fight her). Just after the "Merlin King", owned by LF, returns from Braavos to the Vale, LF makes his cryptic "war of three queens" comment to Sansa. In context, it seems likely he is referring to Margaery, Cersei and Dany. Unless he counts Sansa as one of the three, but he doesn't seem to be in any hurry to claim her as queen of the north (+ riverlands and Vale, presumably).

If he is referring to Margaery, Cersei and Dany, he certainly will not support Cersei long-term and it might be convenient for him to get rid of the Tyrells, too. Even if not, Dany's dragons (which LF has had ample opportunity to know about by then, with all the sailors spreading the tale) would point to her probable victory and LF will always make sure to side with the winners.

The only thing he cannot know about (yet, anyway) is that Tyrion not only survives, but may well attain a high rank in Dany's army. That would be a serious complication from LF's POV.

LF may or may not know about Aegon, but I'm assuming that siding with a pet project of Varys is out.

I think that Sansa/HtH is going to mimic the Lyanna/Bob dynamic basically HtH will be completely swept off his feet by her, while Sansa herself would rather not be married to him. We know from the Bob/Lyanna thing that Bob was quite obsessed with Lyanna. His obsession with Lyanna was so strong that it basically took over his life. I think that that’s what going to happen with HtH.

I quite agree we are likely to see Harry attracted to Sansa, and not so much the other way round.

He’ll be madly in love with her and then she would have the nerve to spurn him?( He who is beloved by all, any girl should count herself lucky with a guy like him). And then LF comes along and he says that there might be a way for him to get Sansa, and all he has to do is claim his birthright a bit sooner than expected. After all SR is just a sick boy, he’ll die soon enough, so why not give the Vale the strong Lord it deserves today? A Lord with the power to get a certain girl to marry him, without her permission.

That Harry would be willing to help get rid of SR I could see (it could always be spun as being needed for the good of the Vale, needing a strong leader in perilous times etc.), but going as far as outright siege of a Sansa/SR group seems to push it into plain villainy.

[Le Cygne]

It wouldn't stop Bran from finding her, either, and Tyrion is near guaranteed to come looking for her too (and a very sudden natural daughter of LF would raise his interest, whether or not LF would be alive at the time).

Bran is on her side. Why is Tyrion going to come looking for her?

Why she didn't go with him is clear in the books.

It's not clear to her, if you listen to her tell it. Again, she tells the reader she understood the fire was messing with his head and she lay awake at night thinking she should have gone him.

What does that tell you? Ambiguity. You're making it sound like GRRM didn't know how to write his own scene. Even though they butchered it after he wrote it, there was the same ambiguity.

[Wouter]

Bran is on her side. Why is Tyrion going to come looking for her?

Bran is on her side, but if the Starks/the north/the realm have need of Sansa (and why else would she be a POV in the books?) he would presumably not allow her to remain anonymous somewhere. A life with a blacksmith or tavern owner also seems way more Arya's style to me; Sansa is quite attached to court life, still. It's also where her strengths lie.

It's not clear to her, if you listen to her tell it. Again, she tells the reader she understood the fire was messing with his head and she lay awake at night thinking she should have gone him.

Regret after the fact (when she also romantices the entire thing with the "unkiss") doesn't change that when it happened, it was very clear to the reader why it didn't seem a great idea at the time to run away with a drunken brute, even if he had been protective of her earlier. He nearly used a knife on her, that's not good points for a supposed protector...

What does that tell you? Ambiguity. You're making it sound like GRRM didn't know how to write his own scene. Even though they butchered it after he wrote it, there was the same ambiguity.

GRRM is not infallible (his S3 episode wasn't that great, especially not that terrible scene with Theon and "Violet" and the other one), and we don't know what modification are made between his script and the eventual filmed scene. The scene on TV gave the impression (see the "Unsullied" TV-only viewers reactions on TWOP forums, for example) that Sansa wasn't even sure she wanted to escape KL as Sandor's proposal seemed perfectly valid on screen. The terror from the scene in the books wasn't there.

[Le Cygne]

Bran is on her side, but if the Starks/the north/the realm have need of Sansa (and why else would she be a POV in the books?) he would presumably not allow her to remain anonymous somewhere. A life with a blacksmith or tavern owner also seems way more Arya's style to me; Sansa is quite attached to court life, still. It's also where her strengths lie.

We're going in circles here. We don't know what she wants, but if she doesn't want to be found, her little brother who loves her isn't going to suddenly decide he knows better.

Regret after the fact (when she also romantices the entire thing with the "unkiss") doesn't change that when it happened, it was very clear to the reader why it didn't seem a great idea at the time to run away with a drunken brute, even if he had been protective of her earlier. He nearly used a knife on her, that's not good points for a supposed protector...

That's your opinion, not hers. The scene didn't end with him "demanding the song", as GRRM put it. She cupped his cheek, and he ran off in tears.

Next thing we know, she's putting on his cloak and wishing he was there and yes, I do think we should take what she says seriously and not just dismiss it as "romanticizing".

GRRM is not infallible (his S3 episode wasn't that great, especially not that terrible scene with Theon and "Violet" and the other one), and we don't know what modification are made between his script and the eventual filmed scene. The scene on TV gave the impression (see the "Unsullied" TV-only viewers reactions on TWOP forums, for example) that Sansa wasn't even sure she wanted to escape KL as Sandor's proposal seemed perfectly valid on screen. The terror from the scene in the books wasn't there.

He commented on the modifications, and so did the director. She was afraid, then she wasn't, in both scenes. You're missing half of the scene if you don't pay attention to the not afraid part.