The rise of the religious left in America

[Galactus]

Absolutely the comparison was disrespectful to the religion. I fully accept you (and Naz's and any others) criticism. I just happen to hold that Christianity, the religion, as opposed to Christians, the people who ascribe to Christianity, has more than earned the disrespect.

I'd point out that the same can probably be argued for any institution, including every single country in the world.

[Galactus]

My view is that it's not something we discuss much around here, except in the context of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and then only as part of a broader discussion about that conflict. There is a discussion to be had,but we don't do it much, and I'm deeply afraid that it would descend into something pretty offensive pretty fast (I hope that I'm wrong about that).

There used to be quite a bit of an argument in the internal israeli politics thread if I remember things correctly.

[Castel]

Probably, but I have far less cultural exposure to Islamic countries to say with certainty. From what I know, the addition of Sharia laws seems to suggest that the religion is as susceptible to perversion as Christianity is.

Perversion? It wasn't always there?

[Mlle. Zabzie]

There used to be quite a bit of an argument in the internal israeli politics thread if I remember things correctly.

You know, I never really visit that thread, but that would make sense.

[Sci-2]

Sci - Not sure whether Christianity gets it more often than other religions here. I'm sort of thinking all religions that get discussed get dumped on fairly often (e.g., I've seen Islam fairly well dismissed pretty routinely).

Liberal antipathy toward religion is usually directed at Christianity. I think this probably has to do with wanting to be PC as well as possible personal, negative experiences with Christianity.

The difference is that I think Christianity and Islam (broadly) get discussed the most of any major world religions.

Yeah, both come up more often. But I've not really seen liberals go out of their way to refer to Islam as a dancing whore.

That said, it seems some boarders new and old are ready to dismiss religious belief overall, or take it as a sign of low IQ.

This is unsurprising to me because these two religions specifcally prosyletize and look for converts much more so than other major world religions. That makes the public profile, in a sense, that much more apparent. In addition, at least in the West, Christianity has been a dominant, majority force for centuries. Therefore, in a sense, Christians are starting from a place of privilege. Similar to discussions we've had elsewhere (e.g., in the feminist thread) that may make it harder to cry discrimination. Thoughts?

I think part of it also that other major religions such as Buddhism/Hinduism/Taoism don't seem to have pinned down ideas about gay rights or abortion rights, and none of these faiths have the same tendency toward scriptural literalism. So people seem to have an easier time separating the Hindu who beats his wife from Hinduism itself.

Or they just don't even think about those other faiths.

I do think part of this has to do with assumed privilege, in the sense that people feel Christianity is the Goliath holding back progressivism as well as dumping on other faiths.

But it really seems to me that if the issue is with the beliefs of adherents then many other major religions probably have for [far] more reactionary adherents than Christianity does. I suspect only Wiccans are more liberal.

My personal issue is the idea religion gets to be treated with kid gloves because people really believe in it. We should be able to discuss and research pressing questions like the relationship between Islam & Violence as we do Video Games & Violence.

[Serious Callers Only]

Actual islam is more like a dancing troglodyte.

Perversion? It wasn't always there?

Yeah. The Koran has the 'advantage' of being very well sourced to have few to no alterations from the original form as dictated by Muhammad (confirmed pedophile, just a public service announcement).

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

My view is that it's not something we discuss much around here, except in the context of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and then only as part of a broader discussion about that conflict. There is a discussion to be had,but we don't do it much, and I'm deeply afraid that it would descend into something pretty offensive pretty fast (I hope that I'm wrong about that).

That's the point. It's apparently ok to compare christianity to a cheap whore.

I wonder if I said something similar about Judaism in a similar context if that would be ok. I suspect not.

[Castel]

Yeah, both come up more often. But I've not really seen liberals go out of their way to refer to Islam as a dancing whore.

Well, the thing is, not only are the liberals dealing with Christianity more than Islam in their struggles the liberal that made this particular comment has been clear that the behavior of (the True ) Christians during these discussions is what caused him to use such inflammatory language. Familiarity, contempt and so on.

[Galactus]

But it really seems to me that if the issue is with the beliefs of adherents then many other major religions probably have for more reactionary adherents than Christianity does. I suspect only Wiccans are more liberal.

Christianity and islam both have pretty long traditions of pretty radical politics too (the very term "social justice" originally referred to christian politics)

[Crazydog7]

Since we are always going to have religious trappings in our goverment because there is always good money to be made in pitching Jesus to the (whatever word you feel fits here) I would take my chances with the progressive set before I would ever trust those who support Dominionism or any Rick Warren nonsense.

[Sci-2]

Well, the thing is, not only are the liberals dealing with Christianity more than Islam in their struggles the liberal that made this particular comment has been clear that the behavior of (the True ™ ) Christians during these discussions is what caused him to use such inflammatory language. Familiarity, contempt and so on.

True. I'm thinking of liberals generally.

Seems odd to me to degrade the religion that likely has more liberal believers than any other elder faith while not even considering there might be problems with the others.

For the West that's obviously Islam, for other countries it likely varies. India, for example, should figure out why so many gang rapes are happening when Hinduism probably has the most feminine divinities of the elder faiths.

@Mlle. Zabzie:

Actually I forgot how much shit got dumped on the Otherkin faith. That was probably the worst, since people felt it didn't even deserve to be recognized as a religion.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

That's the point. It's apparently ok to compare christianity to a cheap whore.

I wonder if I said something similar about Judaism in a similar context if that would be ok. I suspect not.

You know, I don't think that would be the set of metaphors that would immediately jump to mind. The association between prostitution and Christianity as an institution is actually a long one. Reformation and post-Reformation Protestants often referred to the Catholic Church as "a painted whore" (or the Pope as the "whore of Rome", etc. etc.). Therefore it is an existing historical association (it's also freighted with all kinds of anti-woman baggage that goes far beyond that discussion, but I digress). I don't personally think it would be ok, and I didn't think it was ok in the Christianity context either.

Sci - fair enough I missed most of that thread, so I hadn't really had it in mind.

[Galactus]

Protestants often referred to the Catholic Church as "a painted whore" (or the Pope as the "whore of Rome", etc.

There's a wonderful bit of sculpture on the Wasa of a pope with boobs.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

You know, I don't think that would be the set of metaphors that would immediately jump to mind. The association between prostitution and Christianity as an institution is actually a long one. Reformation and post-Reformation Protestants often referred to the Catholic Church as "a painted whore" (or the Pope as the "whore of Rome", etc. etc.). Therefore it is an existing historical association (it's also freighted with all kinds of anti-woman baggage that goes far beyond that discussion, but I digress). I don't personally think it would be ok, and I didn't think it was ok in the Christianity context either.

This association predates Christianity in the Jewish scriptures. The nation of Israel is constantly compared to a prostitute throughout the Old Testament (Jewish scriptures).

[Sci-2]

Sci - fair enough I missed most of that thread, so I hadn't really had it in mind.

I think it's just an interesting window into how people view religion. Apparently "Human with a dragon/dog/elf soul" is more ridiculous than "Dude comes back after 3 days to save your immortal soul being jeopardized by some woman eating an apple".

As for faiths and whores, I could probably come up with a list mapping religions to different kinds of sex workers (gives lots of freebies, technically just fucking you for rent and bling, the one who listens and consoles, etc) but I get pinned as the creepy guy often enough without that added heat.

[Castel]

True. I'm thinking of liberals generally.

Seems odd to me to degrade the religion that likely has more liberal believers than any other elder faith while not even considering there might be problems with the others.

What makes you think that they don't think that there are problems with other religions? It's not like the complaints aimed at Christianity are unique. It's just that it's a or more common issue to the Western liberals making the arguments on the board.

[Otho Bracken]

You see? This is why Jesus hated the Internet.

[polishgenius]

Absolutely the comparison was disrespectful to the religion. I fully accept you (and Naz's and any others) criticism. I just happen to hold that Christianity, the religion, as opposed to Christians, the people who ascribe to Christianity, has more than earned the disrespect.

What about women, have they earned the disrespect?

Also, I don't think you can separate the religion from the people like that. Which is fine, there are plenty of reasons to disrespect Christianity and the way it has been and is practiced, there's an awful lot wrong with it, but when you say something as broad as you just did, don't then step back and say well I wasn't insulting you, because for many people who's faith is deeply personal and important to them: you were.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Actually I forgot how much shit got dumped on the Otherkin faith. That was probably the worst, since people felt it didn't even deserve to be recognized as a religion.

How about the shit that got dumped on the Hale-Bopp people? Or Scientologists? Is making fun of wacky, pseudo-religious beliefs entirely off-limits?

[Seli]

Perversion? It wasn't always there?

Probably not. I might remember wrong but I believe Koran and Hadith postdate Mohammed by quite a bit.

And of course, much as Judaism, Islam has a (variety of) highly legalized interpretation traditions.