Misogynism and the song of the summer (or is it just sexism?)

[bbstark]

The South Park

on Britney Spears ends with Miley named the next sacrificial virgin for the media altar. It's a bit surreal that the writers got it right.

I'm inclined to speculate the writers of South Park collaborate with Nate Silver :P

[Castel]

The South Park

on Britney Spears ends with Miley named the next sacrificial virgin for the media altar. It's a bit surreal that the writers got it right.

The Onion

a funny bit though it's not quite as thematically relevant, look at the graph of her progression.Then look at the jump in daily views after the VMAs.

I mean I can understand distaste at the song and subject matter, but people calling her a ''whore'' and a ''slut'' and calling her ''broken'' what the fuck? It's beyond ridiculous.

It (implying she's mentally unstable) is a nice way to have your cake and eat it though you have to admit. Anyone who would have to think twice about calling a twenty-year-old a slut on national television now only has to put on the face of a concerned parent, while simultaneously pointing out that insane people act this way (YOU HEAR ME KIDS???). Good play.

[Datepalm]

Oh, Sledgehammer is about sex. Well, that makes sense.

To the "Blurred Lines" song - I'm honestly not that worked up about it. It's nasty and objectifying, but (except the title, admittedly) doesn't strike me as atypically problematic. The video is almost tongue in cheek. While still having naked women and fully dressed men, of course, but that's as old as porn. The question this raises for me is why stuff that would have been solidly porn a decade or two ago is now perfectly acceptable prime time stuff, apparently. I suppose that's related to misogyny, bit it isn't entirely overlapping.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

I don't think it's mysogynistic or sexist

[bbstark]

It (implying she's mentally unstable) is a nice way to have your cake and eat it though you have to admit. Anyone who would have to think twice about calling a twenty-year-old a slut on national television now only has to put on the face of a concerned parent, while simultaneously pointing out that insane people act this way (YOU HEAR ME KIDS???)

well it is a cautionary tale, but unfortunately 'slut' is not the right one. Something closer to the mark would be 'girls with low self esteem'

At the end of the day 'Miley Cirus' is not just a person, but a business, and her marketing strategy is to target young girls, in their teenage to college years, who have been conditioned to conflate concepts of sexuality and sexiness. Miley Cirus, the business, embodies this idea, and sells it's product quite spectacularly.

The message that young girls get very clearly through the media is: It's ok to be "sexy" and look "sexually alluring", in fact you probably should be, but it isn't ok to actually have sex, because that makes you a 'slut'.

Look at twerking, it *literally* communicates that: be sexy and sexually suggestive, without actually having sex.

It doesn't say anything about sex, or sexuality, all she's saying is "I'm from a generation that is encouraged to pretend to be sexually open, while not actually demonstrating any valid knowledge about sex"

[Howdyphillip]

This trend is not new in music... Has anyone ever seen Madame Butterfly, or Lakme, or any other opera at all by the way?

I find it humorous that the same people who will get up in arms and fight about these horrible trends in music during the day will dress up and go see the exact same thing at an evening performance.

[Sci-2]

While still having naked women and fully dressed men, of course, but that's as old as porn. The question this raises for me is why stuff that would have been solidly porn a decade or two ago is now perfectly acceptable prime time stuff, apparently. I suppose that's related to misogyny, bit it isn't entirely overlapping.

Doesn't this take us back to the question of whether porn and sex work are - at least in their current incarnations - damaging to our views of women and possible sex in general?

Which is not to stake you to a position on all that, just thinking out loud.

[Salad_fevre]

Would naked men make you happy?

[Sci-2]

Would naked men make you happy?

Interesting question. I actually do think erotica has artistic merit, and I'm not convinced sex [work] worker or pornography are inherently detrimental to the workers or society. So for me the political goal would actually be more naked men, more catering to a variety of desires beyond my own (I'm het cis male), but also the way in which these men and women are depicted.

I do worry there is also room for exploitation, as noted in this recent bit of activism in Holland. OTOH I do know there are, for example, lesbian owned, made for women, porn studios out there that apparently are very pro-feminism.

Presently I think legalization of sex work will do more good than harm but am willing to see data/arguments saying otherwise.

eta: added link

[Gertrude]

Would naked men make you happy?

It's not as easy as 'show more men naked'. I'd prefer it if nudity all around was less taboo and not used to shock and titillate as much, but that's pretty much the whole problem, isn't it?

[Salad_fevre]

Let me rephrase and we can try this again. Would it bring you pleasure to have scantily (if at all) clad men paraded before you artistically?

You, as in whoever is willing to answer. You and your personal pleasure.

[Datepalm]

It kind of depends on the context, doesn't it? Under some circumstances, in the sense that I find artistically scantily clad men generally attractive, sure, but at a time and place of my choosing - when I choose to watch porn, for example (probably in private, for one). I know I don't want to watch that video - or something similar geared at me - when i'm, say, channel flipping while making dinner with my dad. Does that video not generate a similar discomfort in the target audience?

Basically, the question isn't whether porn is good or bad, it's whether the pornification of stuff that is not, nominally, porn is.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

It kind of depends on the context, doesn't it? Under some circumstances, in the sense that I find artistically scantily clad men generally attractive, sure, but at a time and place of my choosing - when I choose to watch porn, for example (probably in private, for one). I know I don't want to watch that video - or something similar geared at me - when i'm, say, channel flipping while making dinner with my dad. Does that video not generate a similar discomfort in the target audience?

Basically, the question isn't whether porn is good or bad, it's whether the pornification of stuff that is not, nominally, porn is.

I would have thought that video was great when I was 16. Now in my 30s it gets an eye roll from me. Although I'm puzzled how it is seen as sexist or mysogynistic.

The whole porn thing has changed so drastically since I was 16. Used to be really difficult to get access to porn, now anyone can do it with a google search. And that Thicke video seems very vanilla in context to what one can see on the Internet.

[TerraPrime]

Now in my 30s it gets an eye roll from me. Although I'm puzzled how it is seen as sexist or mysogynistic.

Really? It's hard to see why parading bare-breasted women in front of men to be ogled, and where it is the ONLY purpose of the women in the video, is a sexist thing to do? Really?

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Really? It's hard to see why parading bare-breasted women in front of men to be ogled, and where it is the ONLY purpose of the women in the video, is a sexist thing to do? Really?

Yeh really, based on the definition of sexist. I don't see how it's sexist.

[straits]

At the end of the day 'Miley Cirus' is not just a person, but a business, and her marketing strategy is to target young girls, in their teenage to college years, who have been conditioned to conflate concepts of sexuality and sexiness. Miley Cirus, the business, embodies this idea, and sells it's product quite spectacularly.

Good point. And as a result of the business scheme, it does not actually matter (to whoever is backing her) whether or not Miley suffers personally from the way attention is directed towards whatever she does. Bad publicity is publicity.

The message that young girls get very clearly through the media is: It's ok to be "sexy" and look "sexually alluring", in fact you probably should be, but it isn't ok to actually have sex, because that makes you a 'slut'.

Yes, there is a lot of shame associated with having sex, given how much the entertainment industry focuses on "sexy".I would say the main message is that [insert fad or pattern of behaviour] is required/expected if someone wants to be "sexy", while the unmentioned backlash of this is being branded a "slut". A woman in the entertainment industry doesn't actually need to (be known to) have sex in order to be called names that attack the sexual aspect of her life.

[MercenaryChef]

i cannot really have an opinion on this subject.

i listen to music that often times when you can understand the lyrics they contain themes of evisceration, mutilation, necrophilia, cannibalism and the like.

[bbstark]

Good point. And as a result of the business scheme, it does not actually matter (to whoever is backing her) whether or not Miley suffers personally from the way attention is directed towards whatever she does. Bad publicity is publicity.

yes, you're right, and to be clear, I meant the marketing strategy by whoever is backing her, not Miley herself. I didn't mean that she, herself schemes as to how to best influence her fans (though she might be? you never know!). And the impact on her personal life and character is probably not taken into account.

Yes, there is a lot of shame associated with having sex, given how much the entertainment industry focuses on "sexy".I would say the main message is that [insert fad or pattern of behaviour] is required/expected if someone wants to be "sexy", while the unmentioned backlash of this is being branded a "slut". A woman in the entertainment industry doesn't actually need to (be known to) have sex in order to be called names that attack the sexual aspect of her life.

Agree.

And to tie the loose ends of my point (because I didn't do that), women with low self esteem are more likely to engage in said fad or pattern of behavior to seek the stamp of approval of x, y and z (random strangers, boyfriend, friends etc.), the stamp of 'sexy', instead of for her own reasons and enjoyment ( if that brings her joy). Having good sense of self worth doesn't save you from being branded 'slut', but it does put the behavior of others toward you in perspective, and makes you more prudent about which fads to follow, likely sparing you some public ridicule.

As you said, regardless if you follow a fad and engage in "sexy" behavior or not, being a woman means risking being called 'slut', and there's no male equivalent. "Douche" doesn't even come close to it.

[TerraPrime]

i cannot really have an opinion on this subject.

i listen to music that often times when you can understand the lyrics they contain themes of evisceration, mutilation, necrophilia, cannibalism and the like.

I think there's a difference between expressing anger, frustration, disaffection, rage, etc., in language that conveys these emotions, and the type of lyrics in songs like "Blurred Lines" because the former we all know it is wrong, whereas the latter, plenty of people think it's ok to cajole, to pressure, and to get the other person drunk in other to have sex with them because, you know, they just *know* there's a good girl/boy inside who wants to do bad things, etc.

[Salad_fevre]

Creepy? Creepy is significantly more impactful on a guy. Virgin/loser are almost male specific derogatives. The child molester/rapist memes are exclusively male.

A douche can be male or female. So can many other terms. Had a long-time ago male roommate classed as a male slut for sleeping around; this was not a positive label. No, men are not seen as sexy*, so the male specific derogatives are going to target other aspects.

*outside certain superstars etc.