R+L=J v 58

[finger]

Let's stop right here. How does that jibe with the comment that they would see Jaime roast in Seven Hells before allowing him to take Aerys' life?

I'm lost. Jaime kills Aerys. Darry flees with Viserys. Nothing to do.

[SFDanny]

However, Ashara was not in KL during the Rebellion. She could have come visiting, but given that she was the sister of one Arthur known to be hiding with Rhaegar, wouldn't her movements be followed in order to find out what she might be up to? Wouldn't Aerys himself want her questioned to find out what she might know about Rhaegar? And how would Ashara pull the switch? Finding a child of the right age and colouring in KL would be time-consuming and I cannot imagine that it would escape the attention of Varys' spies.

Do you have a source concerning when she leaves? All I remember is that she leaves being a lady-in-waiting at some point and we don't know her movements during any of this period other than Martin's comment that she wasn't "nailed to the floor in Starfall." Anything more concrete, I'd love to see, but it doesn't have to have been her. She's just my top candidate.

Yes but acting against Rhaegar would harm Elia, so pissed as he might be, what would Doran do? He certainly cannnot take Aegon hostage against Rhaegar as he's not going to harm his sister's child, and he certainly wouldn't be sending him back to Aerys. What danger would come from Doran then?

The threat of physical danger to Aegon is not what I was talking about with Doran. Getting him back from Sunspear is another question. The Martells might just decide they liked having the heir apparent growing up in Dorne and learning what it is like to be Dornish for when he sits the throne. The point being the Martells have their own agenda, even if that isn't to harm Doran's nephew. The Kingsguard Trio are men Rhaegar trusts to follow his orders. I agree though, Sunspear would be a much better alternative than King's Landing for Aegon's health.

[SFDanny]

Aegon being removed from the safety of King's Landing by Rhaegar or Elia before the Trident fails the logical sniff test. That is in spite of the awkward assumption that he would be sent to the tower, Dragonstone is much closer and firmly in Targaryen control.

With all respect, MtnLion, this is nonsense. I've shown why it makes all the logical sense in the world for Rhaegar to want his son removed from his father's control. Aerys freaking threatens Aegon's safety. The man is nuts and has shown himself to be murderously so. What kind of "logical sniff test" are you applying here? One where what you don't want to be obviously true is dismissed? Kindly deal with what I've written.

[J. Stargaryen]

With all respect, MtnLion, this is nonsense. I've shown why it makes all the logical sense in the world for Rhaegar to want his son removed from his father's control. Aerys freaking threatens Aegon's safety. The man is nuts and has shown himself to be murderously so. What kind of "logical sniff test" are you applying here? One where what you don't want to be obviously true is dismissed? Kindly deal with what I've written.

This is highly amusing, coming from someone who discarded basically the entire baby swap conspiracy in ADwD to make their theory even remotely plausible.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Who was Elia holding again when they went after her and her children? The fake son, or her blood own daughter?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Who was Elia holding again when they went after her and her children? The fake son, or her blood own daughter?

She was holding her actual son, and her daughter was in the floor below. There was never a switch and Aegon is dead.

[King of Winters]

Who was Elia holding again when they went after her and her children? The fake son, or her blood own daughter?

Elia was holding the real baby Aegon, until Gregor dashed his head, and Rhaenys was, I think, hiding under Rhaegar's bed and Amory Lorch stabbed her to death...

[Ghost's Shadow]

She was holding her actual son, and her daughter was in the floor below. There was never switch and Aegon is dead.

I know. ;)

I'm seeing people argue yet again about how there was a daycare facility at the ToJ, but no one is saying it doesn't make much sense for Elia to hold on to the boy and not her own girl. Like she was going to protect a changeling when her own daughter was getting stabbed. :stunned:

[J. Stargaryen]

I know. ;)

I'm seeing people argue yet again about how there was a daycare facility at the ToJ, but no one is saying it doesn't make much sense for Elia to hold on to the boy and not her own girl. Like she was going to protect a changeling when her own daughter was getting stabbed. :stunned:

That's actually a really good point, imo.

[King of Winters]

I know. ;)

I'm seeing people argue yet again about how there was a daycare facility at the ToJ, but no one is saying it doesn't make much sense for Elia to hold on to the boy and not her own girl. Like she was going to protect a changeling when her own daughter was getting stabbed. :stunned:

That's actually a really good point, imo.

Seeing as it was said that Rhaenys hid under her father's bed, it could have been in another room to Elia and Aegon's room.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That's actually a really good point, imo.

Yes. I'm also still looking for an explanation for Ned explicitly thinking that Aegon is dead, if the kid was at the Tower of Joy. How could he have been at the Tower without Ned knowing it? It doesn't make any sense.

Seeing as it was said that Rhaenys hid under her father's bed, it could have been in another room to Elia and Aegon's room.

Different floors. I can't remember exactly whether Rhaenys was above or below Elia, who was in the nursery, but either way, they were not in each other's immediate proximity.

[Ygrain]

I know. ;)

I'm seeing people argue yet again about how there was a daycare facility at the ToJ, but no one is saying it doesn't make much sense for Elia to hold on to the boy and not her own girl. Like she was going to protect a changeling when her own daughter was getting stabbed. :stunned:

It has been argued that she was trying to maintain the cover-up, but I agree with your point. However, my main problem with the Rhaegar-orchestrated switch is its general implausibility. A last-minute switch, if an impostor has been prepared in advance, perhaps. But switching an almost one-year-old, for weeks to months? That's nothing like the switch of the babies on the Wall; a one year old has a personality and knows who his people are. Both Elia and whoever was supposedly transporting Aegon to ToJ would have one hell of a problem with a hysterically crying baby for days. Furthermore, at this age, kids are beginning to talk, and each kid has a totally different set of "words", not to mention their set habits. Dunno how much GRRM would know about that but I really don't see this realistically happening.

[SFDanny]

I know. ;)

I'm seeing people argue yet again about how there was a daycare facility at the ToJ,

Nice line, but no substance. No one has put forward anything like such a possibility. A wet nurse with her child being on hand for when Lyanna's child is born is hardly a "daycare facility."

but no one is saying it doesn't make much sense for Elia to hold on to the boy and not her own girl. Like she was going to protect a changeling when her own daughter was getting stabbed. :stunned:

As if Elia has a choice in getting to her daughter or not. Who makes these kind of claims? No one. I'm fairly certain Gregor Clegane didn't ask Elia which child she wanted in the room with her as she was brutally raped and murdered. Get real and discuss the theory, not issue one liners.

[SFDanny]

Yes. I'm also still looking for an explanation for Ned explicitly thinking that Aegon is dead, if the kid was at the Tower of Joy. How could he have been at the Tower without Ned knowing it? It doesn't make any sense.

Apple please go back and read my posts as it is carefully explained in them. If you want me to respond to a specific point I'd be glad to.

[Dead Wolf]

I believe that Aegon is Rhaegar's son. Let the onslaught begin

[SFDanny]

It has been argued that she was trying to maintain the cover-up, but I agree with your point. However, my main problem with the Rhaegar-orchestrated switch is its general implausibility. A last-minute switch, if an impostor has been prepared in advance, perhaps. But switching an almost one-year-old, for weeks to months? That's nothing like the switch of the babies on the Wall; a one year old has a personality and knows who his people are. Both Elia and whoever was supposedly transporting Aegon to ToJ would have one hell of a problem with a hysterically crying baby for days. Furthermore, at this age, kids are beginning to talk, and each kid has a totally different set of "words", not to mention their set habits. Dunno how much GRRM would know about that but I really don't see this realistically happening.

My suggestion is that if Rhaegar did this, it isn't a last minute switch. Rather it takes place over the months leading up to the Trident from when Rhaegar arrives in King's Landing from the Tower.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Apple please go back and read my posts as it is carefully explained in them. If you want me to respond to a specific point I'd be glad to.

I don't think Egg or Young Griff are that comparable here. Like I asked, are they going to dye this child's hair blue, or shave it off? Is Ned not going to wonder where this random blue-haired baby came from?

I know you're stuck on the Aegon-at-the-Tower thing, but I am telling you, it does not pass the derp test. Or at least, it doesn't pass the derp test nearly as well as the idea that Aegon died in King's Landing, Young Griff is a fake and that Jon was the only baby at the Tower.

My suggestion is that if Rhaegar did this, it isn't a last minute switch. Rather it takes place over the months leading up to the Trident from when Rhaegar arrives in King's Landing from the Tower.

All the more reason to think this is a weak idea. It's one thing to successfully switch a year-old baby during the chaos of the Sack. It's another thing entirely to switch out a baby and have it stay under wraps for weeks or months.

[SFDanny]

Sorry, folks, have to go pick up my daughter. While check back in later and respond to any serious discussion. Thanks.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Nice line, but no substance. No one has put forward anything like such a possibility. A wet nurse with her child being on hand for when Lyanna's child is born is hardly a "daycare facility."

Wait. Who said anything about a wetnsurse and her child now? There's a third?!?!? Or are you saying Aegon is truly a wetnurse's child. If so, my mistake.

Oh, and if there's a third child there, and one wetnurse, you're already half way to a daycare because I think over here you can keep up to 8 per person? So I was still somewhat right. ;)

[Ygrain]

My suggestion is that if Rhaegar did this, it isn't a last minute switch. Rather it takes place over the months leading up to the Trident from when Rhaegar arrives in King's Landing from the Tower.

I perhaps didn't express myself clearly. It is exactly the long-term switch that I question as implausible.

As if Elia has a choice in getting to her daughter or not. Who makes these kind of claims? No one. I'm fairly certain Gregor Clegane didn't ask Elia which child she wanted in the room with her as she was brutally raped and murdered. Get real and discuss the theory, not issue one liners.

Actually, there is something to the argument. The KL is being sacked by Tywin's men, they are approaching the Red Keep - in such a situation, why did Elia go to the changeling's room instead to her daughter in the first place?