R+L=J v 58

[LollysLackwit]

You can't read 58 threads but you surely could get some help from the reference guide at the beginning of each thread: here

I've read some, but the hair color argument really bothers me!

Thanks for the interview!

[lareine]

Thanks, and sorry I didn't see the discussion, I must have forgotten to follow the thread :(

Well, Robert's Rebellion happened roughly 1 year after the Harrenhal Tourney (RR in 282 - 283), hence if Ashara had gotten pregnant in Harrenhal (281 AL), I guess she'd have had the baby already? However, Barristan Selmy says, during his Dance POV, that "Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after". Hence implying that Ashara Dayne got pregnant around the beginning of Robert's Rebellion, maybe 1 or 2 months in. If Barristan recalls she threw herself from a tower "soon after" her baby's birth, then it can't have been born a year before that. It doesn't make sense for Ashara to have been pregnant right after Harrenhal either, as RR ended 2 years after the Tourney and at the time, the newborn baby Ned brought back to the North was rumored to be Ashara's. Hence implying she was pregnant roughly at the same time Lyanna was with Jon.

So this means that, whoever the father was, he didn't impregnate her at Harrenhal, they must have seen each other after.

And also, there is a SSM where Martin states that Ashara Dayne indeed got sent back to Starfall but that she could go basically anywhere she wanted from there as "Starfall has horses and also boats". So even if we know she wasn't supposed to be at KL/Riverrun and so on, we can't be sure of her whereabouts as Martin himself stated that it was a mistake his readers often made, to think that Ashara Dayne was pinned to the floor in Starfall once she got sent there. So it could either mean she wasn't going very far away or, to the contrary, that she was about where she wanted and that she could well have gone by KL or even Riverrun. Then thing with her is that we have absolutely no idea where she was between Harrenhal and the end of RR, she could have been anywhere.

But of course, it is just a theory up in the air, but we have an ambivalent character with Ashara: we know she has a link to Rhaegar and Elia (through Arthur and being Elia's maid) and a link to the Starks as well (through either Ned if we believe the rumors or Brandon, if we assume he was the one she picked. Again, she could have picked Ned first and then got interested in the brother, there is a gap during which we don't know where she was or with who).

Thanks Mayura! I've read your other responses and Ygrain's and Lisa's as well with regard to the timeline and that cleared a lot of things up. I had forgotten that Selmy mentioned she killed herself soon after her daughter was stillborn. So even if there's no mention in the text that Ned had Jon with him when he went to Starfall to return Dawn post TOJ, we do know that Ashara herself was there and still alive at that point, isn't that right?

[finger]

It's possible that Dayne, Whent and Hightower wanted to commit suicide by Northmen. However, I think it's more reasonable to assume that they didn't know what Ned would do to Jon and when he found him. Remember, the KG knew what happened to Aegon by the time Ned arrived at the TOJ. Thus, they could not be sure that Ned, Robert's right hand man, wouldn't have done the same thing to Jon.

That's a good point. We tend to think that the characters know as much as we know, and it might not be so. Sometimes they lack good information, but they still have to make their decisions on this basis.

We know Ned was very enraged when he saw the corpses in KL but, did the KG?

The odd thing is they never try to negotiate or compromise. It's someone looking for his sister. If they were all men of honour, at least one should expect Ned would have been allowed to give his farewell to Lyanna before the fight.

[Greymoon]

My other arguments ( which in all the theories I read, I havn't seen) are also when Robert speaks of Lyanna and says " Your [Ned's] sister, safe... and mine again. " which I believe implies he already """had """ her. Robert being the man whore that he is, I doubt he would be SO infatuated with a woman he never had.

Besides the problem with the time line and other things that have been pointed out...I'm going to say that I also disagree with the assessment, that Robert is only infatuated with Lyanna because he already 'had' her. I think the opposite is frequently true, my experience anyway, and that ‘infatuation’ is often imagined, especially when you don't know the person very well (which is Robert's case). In such cases, the whole fun is the 'chase' so to speak. How often does it happen, to be 'infatuated' with the 'unreachable' and then suddenly it becomes 'reachable' and bang no more infatuation...The whole illusion is broken, and you feel :ack:

I suppose it depends on the people and all...and of course it happens to love and fall in love and all that. But the kind of infatuation Robert has for Lyanna, IMO, is the kind that dies when there is no room for self-delusions and mystery left.

[Ygrain]

That's a good point. We tend to think that the characters know as much as we know, and it might not be so. Sometimes they lack good information, but they still have to make their decisions on this basis.

We know Ned was very enraged when he saw the corpses in KL but, did the KG?

The odd thing is they never try to negotiate or compromise. It's someone looking for his sister. If they were all men of honour, at least one should expect Ned would have been allowed to give his farewell to Lyanna before the fight.

Men of honour can do very dishonourable things in order to pursue the honourable course of keeping a vow.

[finger]

Jon and his wetnurse were definitely at WF when Catelyn went there after the war, this is confirmed via a Catelyn chapter. Ned might've been there or only went there later, or taken a longer route (land as opposed to ship), but we don't know whether he was there when Catelyn arrived and found that Jon was already there ;)

We think Lyanna died from child birth and we know Wylla was Ned Dayne's wetnurse. What can infer?

A wetnurse was needed to feed just born Jon. This must have been Wylla, a well breasted woman about ToJ

Ned went to Starfall to bring them Dawn. Wylla too. They must have arrived together. That's why some people in Starfall thought Wylla was Jon's mother: the first thing they knew from both was the sight of Jon sucking from Wylla.

Wylla knew too much to let her go unchecked, so the Daynes took her in their service. She must have been a good wetnurse, anyway, (and she might have fed Allyria as well.)

Jon was sent by ship from Starfall to White Harbor. Maybe his wetnurse came back to Starfall and he was assigned a new one, some fishmonger, or something, according to the rumours.

Ned went to Winterfell by land with his troop, so he arrived later.

We should find some reason for Cat not having gone with him from Darry, for instance.

[Maxpey]

That's a good point. We tend to think that the characters know as much as we know, and it might not be so. Sometimes they lack good information, but they still have to make their decisions on this basis.

We know Ned was very enraged when he saw the corpses in KL but, did the KG?

The odd thing is they never try to negotiate or compromise. It's someone looking for his sister. If they were all men of honour, at least one should expect Ned would have been allowed to give his farewell to Lyanna before the fight.

Like Ygrain said above, slavish devotion to honor can distort one's perception.

[Ygrain]

Like Ygrain said above, slavish devotion to honor can distort one's perception.

Which is exactly what we see happening with Hightower: the vow to the king is paramount to eveything, no matter what the king does.

ETA: And I think this is the very reason why both Ned and Arthur are so sad before the fight - honour won't let them back out, though neither wants to fight.

[LadyMary]

Hi!

First, I'm sorry if this has been said, but I wasn't about to read all 58 threads (tho I did read a lot!!) :P I invite people who are not completly tired of this debate to argue with me :P

The main argument against Jon being Robert's son, is that Jon is brown of hair and we know that " the seed is strong" within Baratheon lineage. BUT the only actual reference to Jon's hair color (I believe) is, and I quote " She [Arya Stark] even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother." This means that Arya's brown hair (instead of Tully auburn hair) made her looked like Jon, it doesn't mean Jon has brown hair. Brown is closer to black than it is to auburn, so it would be accurate to say someone's brown hair made them look like someone with black hair rather than someone with aubrun hair.

My other arguments ( which in all the theories I read, I havn't seen) are also when Robert speaks of Lyanna and says " Your [Ned's] sister, safe... and mine again. " which I believe implies he already """had """ her. Robert being the man whore that he is, I doubt he would be SO infatuated with a woman he never had.

Lastely, GRRM is a troll. Everyone thinks Jon is Raeghar's son? That's reason enough for him not to let it be... :P

is that, per GRRM, Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany who was conceived shortly prior the Sack of KL, which places Jon's birth approximately within a month since the Sack. The Sack was at the end of the Rebellion, which lasted for about a year, and Lyanna went missing some time before it started, i.e. Jon was conceived a couple of months into the Rebellion when Robert was nowhere around Lyanna.

You can't read 58 threads but you surely could get some help from the reference guide at the beginning of each thread: here

As for Martin's trolling, have a look at this interview where he clearly states:

ETA Everything Ygrain said about chronology plus: why would Ned hide the truth from Jon and from Robert himself??? Why the painful 15 years long secret? Mine simply denotes the way Robert considered the women he desired: private property.

Lyanna was Robert's betrothed - under a marriage contract agreed to by Lord Stark of Winterfell. In that sense, Robert had a claim on Lyanna. And yes, unpleasant as the reality is - women are property in Westerosi society. Lyanna was promised to Robert in theory, but he never took possession of her because she was "stolen" by his cousin.

Now, as to the theory that Jon Snow is Robert's instead of Rhaegar's son, the timing doesn't work- as has been demonstrated by the textual evidence, but also it doesn't make sense that Lyanna would run away from her own fiance if Robert had impregnated her. The answer to that problem would be to hurry the marriage to legitimize the birth - and why would Robert, who professed to love her, leave his fiance to face the shame of out-of-wedlock childbirth when it could have been avoided? Plus, there's nothing in the text to suggest that Robert thought that Lyanna might have been pregnant with his child and he speaks as a man who never got his chance to bed her because Rhaegar took her before they were wed. Robert puts Lyanna on a pedestal as the one he lost, and didn't seem to lose interest in her as he had with his other conquests. There is lots of evidence that Robert was aggrieved because he never got to enjoy what was rightfully his.

[finger]

Men of honour can do very dishonourable things in order to pursue the honourable course of keeping a vow.

I agree, but this was unbid cruelty without any purpose.

I mean something like: "Say your farewell and fight for your live." There's no vow broken.

They found the time to talk about their male nonsenses, like "who won the battle?, what was the score?" and the sort, but a brother and a sister couldn't have a last little chat. I can't take it.

[Ygrain]

I agree, but this was unbid cruelty without any purpose.

I mean something like: "Say your farewell and fight for your live." There's no vow broken.

They found the time to talk about their male nonsenses, like "who won the battle?, what was the score?" and the sort, but a brother and a sister couldn't have a last little chat. I can't take it.

Have you never role-played as a lawful alignment? That's basically it - you follow a code instead of a moral compass.

- Reme,ber who is in charge at ToJ: the guy who watched Rickard roasted while Brandon was strangling himself, and still thought that serving Aerys was his duty.

[Joe Pine]

That's a good point. We tend to think that the characters know as much as we know, and it might not be so. Sometimes they lack good information, but they still have to make their decisions on this basis.

We know Ned was very enraged when he saw the corpses in KL but, did the KG?

The odd thing is they never try to negotiate or compromise. It's someone looking for his sister. If they were all men of honour, at least one should expect Ned would have been allowed to give his farewell to Lyanna before the fight.

Be interesting if they had. The Kingsguard knew their cause was lost, Ned wouldn't want to harm his sister. I guess it's a conspiracy theory too far though.

[Mayura]

You've misunderstood. I do not question Jon's age but his presence at Starfall, or broader knowledge of his presence/existence at Starfall. That is never hinted at anywhere.

Ha no prob indeed ;)

@Greymoon: no problem, it's a forum and everyone is free to intervene as they like :) I indeed misunderstood!

As for Jon being at Starfall, I though we had a clue making the theory possible, but it's true it's not a given thing: Edric Dayne said to Arya that he was nursed by Wylla (who he thinks is Jon's mother) at Starfall. However, it is true that Wylla could simply have gone North with HR while Ned went to Starfall and Wylla could have returned after.

However, this still doesn't kill the point I was trying to make: what I wanted to say is that if Jon is believed by some to possibly be the son of Ned and Ashara, then it can also imply that it was known (or heavily rumored at least) that Ashara was pregnant around the time of RR. And, I believe, maybe she had the baby roughly at the same time Lyanna had Jon, which would make people think Jon could indeed be Ashara's baby. Of course they could also only think that A+N=J for the simple reason that Ned brought Jon back to WF after a little stop at Starfall. But as we know from different sources that Ashara had actually been pregnant at some point, I think it makes sense to think/theorise that she was probably roughly pregnant at the same time than Lyanna was. This circumstancial evidence could also be corroborated by Barristan's POV (unreliable character, I know, but in the case of Ashara's baby, this seems to point to the same clues as the circumstancial evidence do): he says that Ashara threw herself from the tower shortly after the stillbirth hence "confirming" she was more likely pregnant during a bit of RR. If she had been pregnant right after Harrenhal, the baby/stillbirth would have happened a few months before the Rebellion and we couldn't really say she committed suicide "shortly" after the birth imo.

But anyway, it's not that important, this just helps making the point that, for Ashara to get pregnant during the time she was supposed to be at Starfall, it means that either someone visited her or that she visited someone. And it isn't surprising as GRRM himself said we should remember she didn't *have* to remain at SF but that she could travel.

Of course it is just a crackpot theory just like so many others, but Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting and Arthur's sister and it's not impossible that one of them would have told her Rhaegar left with Lyanna. My favourite theory would however be for Varys to be at the origin of the rumor, which is of course highly possible, but then who the hell would have passed the information to Brandon. Ashara is an interesting option because it is implied she had a story with Brandon, GRRM said she had means to leave Starfall and probably did and the information about R+L made Brandon leave Riverrun without marrying Catelyn Tully. But it's all just pure speculation

[finger]

Have you never role-played as a lawful alignment? That's basically it - you follow a code instead of a moral compass.

- Reme,ber who is in charge at ToJ: the guy who watched Rickard roasted while Brandon was strangling himself, and still thought that serving Aerys was his duty.

That Hightower reminds me a tale that an American I used to know once told me.

It was about some petty officer of the marines (so was the tale, Mnt Lion, it's not my fault.) just retired.

He wasn't sure of what to do, and then he saw an ad in a farm, where help was needed, and he entered, to try.

The farmer felt puzzled, but he hired him anyway.

The thing was that a truck came in and delivered a heap of manure. The farmer told the marine to scatter the manure onsome plot, that he did very quickly. The farmer was astonished with the efficiency.

Everything was fine untill two trucks came in. The farmer told him to scatter the largest heap on one plot, and the other one on another plot.

Some hours later, the farmer came back to find him sitting before the manure heaps, to his big surprise.

"What's on?"

"Delivering the shit is easy, taking decisions is not."

[MtnLion]

However, this still doesn't kill the point I was trying to make: what I wanted to say is that if Jon is believed by some to possibly be the son of Ned and Ashara, then it can also imply that it was known (or heavily rumored at least) that Ashara was pregnant around the time of RR. And, I believe, maybe she had the baby roughly at the same time Lyanna had Jon, which would make people think Jon could indeed be Ashara's baby. Of course they could also only think that A+N=J for the simple reason that Ned brought Jon back to WF after a little stop at Starfall. But as we know from different sources that Ashara had actually been pregnant at some point, I think it makes sense to think/theorise that she was probably roughly pregnant at the same time than Lyanna was. This circumstancial evidence could also be corroborated by Barristan's POV (unreliable character, I know, but in the case of Ashara's baby, this seems to point to the same clues as the circumstancial evidence do): he says that Ashara threw herself from the tower shortly after the stillbirth hence "confirming" she was more likely pregnant during a bit of RR. If she had been pregnant right after Harrenhal, the baby/stillbirth would have happened a few months before the Rebellion and we couldn't really say she committed suicide "shortly" after the birth imo.

Why did Ashara go to Starfall and leave her BFF, Elia in King's Landing? It is because she got pregnant at the Tourney at Harrenhal, in the year of the false spring. What happens after the false spring? Winter descends. To get from King's Landing to Starfall one must travel the Prince's Pass, which, of course, is in the mountains, and likely impassable during the winter. So, what does our poor lady Ashara, who is an unwed mother, do at court for the duration of her pregnancy? (Stillbirth means a nine month pregnancy and the child being born dead.) She stays in her BFF's care, and is kept from being seen. Elia is also pregnant, BTW.

Where do the child stealing theories come from that we see some think or speak about? Could it be because Elia's daughter was stillborn? Would it trouble Ashara to hear about the atrocities wrought on Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon from Ned when he visits Starfall? Ned would not know of any need to temper his words, and he is quite upset, in his own right, about those deaths. People are not really paying close attention to dates and ages when the rumors are being generated. Barristan is piecing things together, and really has no idea why Ashara committed suicide. But, he was in King's Landing for the births, and Harrenhal for the dishonor. I find it extremely interesting that Barristan knows that Ashara was dishonored, and that; in spite of his feelings for her; does not name the man.

We know that Lyanna gave birth at the tower (bed of blood), and that it was about five to ten days before Ned arrived. What were the promises if not to take care of the child? Where is the child under your presumption that he is Ashara's? How would Ashara secretly meet with Ned, a general of rebellion, while she is a loyalist?

[MtnLion]

I have to agree with this. Also they could be only protecting Lyanna because of Rhaegar's last wish, not the "bastard"

I don't know, Jon being legitimized, R+L getting married is too perfect and calculated while everything else wasn't.

I think R and L didn't think through their actions actions, it seems it happend because of impulse of wanting to be together.

That's how I see it. Rhaegar thinking through getting married, while staying at an abandoned tower and people died and all the chaos that followed it seems pretty off to me.

Read the dialog, again. The Kingsguard specifically state that they are the ultimately loyal unit to the Targaryens, and not just the Targaryens, but mad Aerys. They regret not being able to kill Jaime to prevent him doing the king. Hightower himself says that they are at the tower because they swore a vow, that vow is revealed as "protect and defend the king" by Jaime. It is exquisitely clear that the reason that they are still at the tower, and fight with Ned, is because they are defending the king at the tower. They are unwilling to leave this king behind and go to defend another king on Dragonstone.

@Ygrain I will post the analysis, again. It is obviously necessary.

[Abyssalix]

what would really be funny is that if jon was just a bastard and that all these thousands of posts just went to waste...

[Nami]

Jon is still a prince, if he is legitimate.

He would only be king when crowned. He was baby

I don't know, it's too perfect

OMG JON IS KING! YAY

Meh, I like Jon but this is too easy and ridiculously cheesy. Like winning the lottery.

[King of Winters]

Jon is still a prince, if he is legitimate.

He would only be king when crowned. He was baby

I don't know, it's too perfect

OMG JON IS KING! YAY

Meh, I like Jon but this is too easy and ridiculously cheesy. Like winning the lottery.

I advise you to read A King in Hiding: Adding it all up.

[Ygrain]

what would really be funny is that if jon was just a bastard and that all these thousands of posts just went to waste...

There is a lot more discussed than just this, so, no, no waste.

That Hightower reminds me a tale that an American I used to know once told me.

It was about some petty officer of the marines (so was the tale, Mnt Lion, it's not my fault.) just retired.

He wasn't sure of what to do, and then he saw an ad in a farm, where help was needed, and he entered, to try.

The farmer felt puzzled, but he hired him anyway.

The thing was that a truck came in and delivered a heap of manure. The farmer told the marine to scatter the manure onsome plot, that he did very quickly. The farmer was astonished with the efficiency.

Everything was fine untill two trucks came in. The farmer told him to scatter the largest heap on one plot, and the other one on another plot.

Some hours later, the farmer came back to find him sitting before the manure heaps, to his big surprise.

"What's on?"

"Delivering the shit is easy, taking decisions is not."

I fail to see the parallel - it doesn't seem that Hightower was ever at a loss what to do, it's rather about him having certain priorities.

Hightower reminds me of a guy I played, once - very honourable, very chivalrous (actually, Knighted and Chivalrous backgrounds in the Rolemaster system, coupled with the Duelist profession, which basically doubles the honourable conduct and adherence to rules). The other guys in the party were totally accustomed to me being that exemplary paragon of chivalry, always reliable, always honourable - until the moment when a party member got himself in trouble and ended up in prison, awaiting torture and execution, and I forbade any rescue efforts, on the basis of a characterisation no-one was aware of, the background of Faithful Vassal. That one, by definition, overrules any other agenda that the player might have on their own or from any other background, and since my liege (wicked, by definition) had ordered me to arrange the guy's death when an opportunity presented itself, I had no other choice but to obey.

I was quite glad that the game finished quite soon after that because such a situation didn't really sit well with me but this is exactly the sort of dilemma that GRRM presents.

Jon is still a prince, if he is legitimate.

He would only be king when crowned. He was baby

I don't know, it's too perfect

OMG JON IS KING! YAY

Meh, I like Jon but this is too easy and ridiculously cheesy. Like winning the lottery.

No. He would be king by his birthright. The king is dead, long live the king.