Will Sansa slowly turn into Cersei? I think so.

[DogLover]

But, she could deceive Sandor into believing that she is virtuous, while really being a murderer, liar, and hypocrite. I think that's the poster's point.

I think that would undermine everything about Sandor's character, as he isn't one for buying people's bullshit. A dog can sniff out a lie, after all. Of course, it could go the other way--she learns to lie as well as anyone, deceiving even Sandor--the one who told her everyone around her is a better liar than she. But I still don't see it. Sansa's empathy and compassion is what attracted Sandor to her in the first place. And Sandor's perceptiveness and ability to see people for what they are is what she respects about him. If Sansa loses that empathy and compassion and embraces a Machiavellian approach to politics (and life in general), and Sandor can't see through her charade, then the connection between the two is lost.

[chrisdaw]

I think that would undermine everything about Sandor's character, as he isn't one for buying people's bullshit. A dog can sniff out a lie, after all. Of course, it could go the other way--she learns to lie as well as anyone, deceiving even Sandor--the one who told her everyone around her is a better liar than she. But I still don't see it. Sansa's empathy and compassion is what attracted Sandor to her in the first place. And Sandor's perceptiveness and ability to see people for what they are is what she respects about him. If Sansa loses that empathy and compassion and embraces a Machiavellian approach to politics (and life in general), and Sandor can't see through her charade, then the connection between the two is lost.

He didn't sniff out the lie when he killed Mycah, or what Joffrey and Cersei were in the first instance or he'd have never put himself in that position, he got in deep into what should have been an honourable position and it was all too late and pointless by the time he figured it out. But yes he will figure Sansa out, eventually, and the connection will very much be at risk, as too Sansa's own identity.

It's all good fun whilst she's plotting and scheming against historical enemies, murderers of her family and those who've treated her terribly, all ruthless game players themselves. It all becomes much more blurred when circumstances set her path to power (or I suspect maintaining her power) against her own.

At some stage she'll have to decide which Sansa she really wants to be, and either walk away (disappear and find a blacksmith) from all the power or go all in to save it.

[DogLover]

He didn't sniff out the lie when he killed Mycah, or what Joffrey and Cersei were in the first instance or he'd have never put himself in that position, he got in deep into what should have been an honourable position and it was all too late and pointless by the time he figured it out. But yes he will figure Sansa out, eventually, and the connection will very much be at risk, as too Sansa's own identity.

It's all good fun whilst she's plotting and scheming against historical enemies, murderers of her family and those who've treated her terribly, all ruthless game players themselves. It all becomes much more blurred when circumstances set her path to power (or I suspect maintaining her power) against her own.

At some stage she'll have to decide which Sansa she really wants to be, and either walk away (disappear and find a blacksmith) from all the power or go all in to save it.

Sandor was aware of what the Lannisters were and probably knew Mycah didn't deserve to die, but at that point in his life he didn't care--or at least he told himself he didn't care ("If you can't protect yourself, die or get out of the way of those who can. Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world, don't ever believe any different."). He wanted protection from Gregor and that protection was becoming the biggest, hardest badass he could possibly become, which the Lannisters allowed and fostered. And it was his knowledge of what the Lannisters were that he imparted onto Sansa so she could better protect herself. He had a "fuck all" attitude until Sansa affected and challenged him, forcing him to take a long hard look at himself. And it's this interaction with her that causes his initial break from the Lannisters.

I expect Sansa will become more cunning and probably darker, and I can foresee her having to make tough choices that will challenge her sense of morality, but I don't think she'll go as far as you suggest.

[chrisdaw]

Sandor was aware of what the Lannisters were and probably knew Mycah didn't deserve to die, but at that point in his life he didn't care--or at least he told himself he didn't care ("If you can't protect yourself, die or get out of the way of those who can. Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world, don't ever believe any different."). He wanted protection from Gregor and that protection was becoming the biggest, hardest badass he could possibly become, which the Lannisters allowed and fostered. And it was his knowledge of what the Lannisters were that he imparted onto Sansa so she could better protect herself. He had a "fuck all" attitude until Sansa affected and challenged him, forcing him to take a long hard look at himself. And it's this interaction with her that causes his initial break from the Lannisters.

Sorry, getting off topic. No Sansa will never turn into Cersei. She'll become more cunning and probably darker, but never Cersei.

At the series stage he understood what the Lannisters were, but he could not have expected Joffrey to have become and continued to grow into a monster.

To say he did not believe the Mycah story as he heard it would be to deny there's a purposeful parallel between Gregor and Mycah when it fits so conveniently. The bigger older boy bullying the smaller and younger, on which Sandor unleashes his fury.

Sandor holds preconceived notions of what Sansa is, they will not shake instantly. And Sansa will not be a secret LF from the outset, her clandestine actions will at first seem completely reasonable, they'll seem like self protection or righteous justice, she'll become the character as the stakes are raised and collateral damage becomes unavoidable. Sandor's bullshit meter won't take a hit, the rest of the world will not see her for what she is becoming, but Sandor will, despite how hard it will be for him to acknowledge.

[The Ash Tree]

No I can't see it. She showed caring and compassion towards SR in the last chapter, killing him in the next is just bad writing, unless it happens by accident. Anyway, LL is going to be a player in the future, but player =/= ruthless murderer.

[Djinn]

Courtesy is a lady's armor and poison is a lady's sword.

[Minsc]

Because Sansa was kissing her husband, which is also right out of Cersei alley: allow the Kettlebacks a feel or Littlefinger to kiss as he pleased, cheating on her husbad with her brother or cheating on her husband with an heir, plotting to kill a King to get what she wanted or plotting to kill the Lord of Casterly Rock to get what Sansa wanted.

Sansa and Cersei are one and the same, one is just a younger and less ambitious version than the other (hopefully, a less paranoid version as she grows old as well).

You do realize that LF was the one forcing himself onto Sansa and not her attempting to seduce LF to get what she wants. While, Cersei routinely uses for body as the means for manipulation though her efforts of seduction. Thus, the case is not remotely similar.

Simply, you have provided nothing that demonstrates how Sansa and Cersei are one and the same.

Another topic: I disagree with the idea that one needs to be extremely ruthless to be a player, in how you have individuals like Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, and Rickard Stark who all seem like strong players and while they likely could be ruthless none of them were extremely bloodthirsty or cruel.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

This thread makes me sad :(

I wonder sometimes if I'm reading the same books others are reading, because my interpretation of Sansa is obviously very different than that of the OP.

[Newstar]

No I can't see it. She showed caring and compassion towards SR in the last chapter, killing him in the next is just bad writing, unless it happens by accident. Anyway, LL is going to be a player in the future, but player =/= ruthless murderer.

Do tell.

Littlefinger = ruthless murderer

Varys = ruthless murderer

Cersei = ruthless murderer

Margaery/Olenna = ruthless murderer

Tyrion = ruthless murderer

And your point would be...? Yes, there are players who are not ruthless murderers: Catelyn, Ned, Jon Arryn, Kevan Lannister, etc. Perhaps not coincidentally, they're all dead (largely murdered at the behest of or directly by other, better players, also not coincidentally). To be any kind of noteworthy player who's competent enough to avoid getting themselves killed, you must be this ruthless and murderous to ride.

If you say Sansa is going to be a player without being a ruthless murderer, you're saying she's going to end up dead...which, to be fair, is highly likely (Sansa's been marked for death since AGOT), but either she can be a great player and live, or she can be a decent, compassionate player and die. As Cersei would say, there is no middle ground. If Sansa's going to play the game of thrones, she's going to have to play to win, and given what we've seen of the most competent players, we have a pretty good idea of the deplorable acts that entails.

[Dicer]

Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, and Rickard Stark who all seem like strong players and while they likely could be ruthless none of them were extremely bloodthirsty or cruel.

I don't think Jon, Hoster and Rickard were all that good at the game. Jon Arryn was partly to blame for WOT5K by arranging Robert's marriage to Cersei and then allowed the Lannisters to get too much power in KL. By the time Ned became Hand, KL was in debt to Tywin Lannister and Robert was planning to make Jaime warden of the east giving the Lannisters more power. Jon Arryn got killed by his own wife! That's how much he sucked at the game.

I am not sure what makes Hoster such a great player. He makes an alliance with Rickard and Jon Arryn. I would say that forcing his daughter to have an abortion and marry a much older man to get that alliance is a bit cruel. Other than that he has defended Riverrun and maintained peace. I am not sure he stands out as anything special. After all Ned kept the peace up North and we all know how much Ned sucks at the game.

Rickard Stark. Don't know much about the guy. His daughter eloped, he made a marriage alliance with Hoster and then made the dumb decision to pay Aerys a visit. Got burned for his troubles.

Compare these three to people who are actually successful at the game: LF, QOT, Varys, Tywin, Tyrion. These people survived the pit of vipers that is KL. If Sansa aims to be any of these guys then she needs to be prepared to act like them.

I personally don't see it.

The last we saw of her she still seemed rather gullible. She could see through some of LF's lies but she still thinks they are kindly meant lies to comfort her. She still seems scared of interacting with Vale Lords and needs LF's support to talk to them. She seems most comfortable around SweetRobin but he is a sickly 8 year old kid. She does seem to make some morally grey decisions (SweetRobin's medication) but I still don't see how she is going to make a leap from there to LF 2.0 or Cersei 2.0. Unless there's a time gap between AFfC and TWoW.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

If Sansa were intelligent she would've seen right through Cersei before they sized her father, especially after Lady.

She was 11 years old who has been naïve and sheltered her whole life. Do you think you could have been dropped into KL and done any better.

She couldn't even see Littlefinger coming and he was a text book case of dirty old man.

It's very common for kids who are vulnerable and don't have a parent willing or able to protect them to be taken advantage of by a pervert. Nice victim blaming.

Because Sansa was kissing her husband, which is also right out of Cersei alley: allow the Kettlebacks a feel or Littlefinger to kiss as he pleased, cheating on her husbad with her brother or cheating on her husband with an heir, plotting to kill a King to get what she wanted or plotting to kill the Lord of Casterly Rock to get what Sansa wanted.

Sansa wasn't kissing LF. He was kissing her and he came close to actually raping her. Again you are blaming a child for being sexually assaulted by a minor. This is disgusting.

[butterbumps!]

I think the idea of Sansa's becoming Cersei is preposterous. I see Sansa as more of a Vargo/ Ramsay hybrid, personally.

[The Ash Tree]

And your point would be...? Yes, there are players who are not ruthless murderers: Catelyn, Ned, Jon Arryn, Kevan Lannister, etc. Perhaps not coincidentally, they're all dead (largely murdered at the behest of or directly by other, better players, also not coincidentally). To be any kind of noteworthy player who's competent enough to avoid getting themselves killed, you must be this ruthless and murderous to ride.

Thank you, the part I underlined is my point.

And your point being that you must be a ruthless psycho or otherwise you'll end up dead? Perhaps getting shot on the privy by your own son?

[Father of Hosts]

Actually, that would be sort of cool. It's pretty surprising that none of the Stark kids are psychos bent on revenge and world domination. It's a fun theory, with zero textual evidence and what not, as others have stated.

[Minsc]

I don't think Jon, Hoster and Rickard were all that good at the game.

Through their set up and plans they were able to bring down a 300 year dynasty. Yes, Lysa killed Jon however Tyrion killed Tywin but that doesn't negate the fact that Tywin was a skilled player of the game.

[Newstar]

And your point being that you must be a ruthless psycho or otherwise you'll end up dead?

Murderer =/= psycho. Littlefinger's a murderer, but crazy he ain't.

Also, you're confusing necessary with sufficient. It's necessary to be a ruthless murderer to survive in the game, but it's not sufficient, as Tywin learned. If Sansa can't even clear the ruthless murderer bar, however, she won't live long enough for her other deficiencies to be an issue. So maybe she'd best get her ass in gear and start prepping the smothering pillow or the poisoned lemoncakes for Sweetrobin, as the OP suggested she might.

Another topic: I disagree with the idea that one needs to be extremely ruthless to be a player, in how you have individuals like Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, and Rickard Stark who all seem like strong players

Yeah, no.

[Sansa_Stark]

Murderer =/= psycho. Littlefinger's a murderer, but crazy he ain't.

LF is pretty damn sociopathic.

[The Crow]

Basically this. No matter how much "controversy" there is in certain chapter, Sansa just can't suddenly transform. Her last chapter in AFFC showed us how caring she is to SR, and how she has taken the role of his guardian, so to go from there to Cersei in one chapter is completely undoable. Also, everything Sansa showed in ASOIAF is that she is basically total oposition of what Cersei represents. From 2 lines: "I would make them love me", and "I would have given them bread" we are shown that Sansa is someone far different from Cersei. And as Apple Martini said, if she is going to kill anyone, it most certainly will not be her own blood. I see Martin transforming her into a player, but not kinslayer.

:agree:

[The Crow]

This thread makes me sad :(

I wonder sometimes if I'm reading the same books others are reading, because my interpretation of Sansa is obviously very different than that of the OP.

I sometimes think the same things.

[butterbumps!]

Yeah, no.

Because no one in the series has done this thus far, because it's totally inconceivable for Sansa, or because you find "player" and "not ruthless" completely irreconcilable conceptually?