Will Sansa slowly turn into Cersei? I think so.

[Pootie Tang]

In a ACOK, in Maegar's holdfast Cersei advises Sansa to make people fear her. Sansa thinks she would rather make them love her. Remember how even as a child, Cersei was abusing her baby brother and pushing her best friend down a well? I really don't see becoming like Cersei out of nowhere.

This. Thing is, they are fundamentally different.

[Dicer]

I think all the posters who have said that Sansa can never become Cersei 2.0 because she lacks Cersei's established psychopathic tendencies are missing the OP's point, if I understood the OP correctly. It's not whether Sansa will start abusing infants, murdering her BFF on the slightest of pretenses, and beginning a slow slide into insanity. It's whether she will become as ruthless as Cersei.

A lot of posters are saying "Sansa won't be ruthless, she'll just become a player." Hahaha, have you even been reading the books? What do you think the players do? What do you think the Queen of Thorns did when it was required of her? That's right: frame an innocent child (Sansa) for regicide. What do you think Littlefinger has done? Killed many, tried to kill more, and helped cause and pour gasoline on a war that's killed thousands for no other reason than personal gain. What do you think the oh-so-benevolent Varys has done, except murder Kevan and Pycelle and keep himself well stocked in children he insists must be mutilated for his own purposes?

If Sansa's going to follow in their footsteps and become a player worth her salt, she's going to have to do the same: cause others' deaths (even those who've done nothing to harm her) or resort to outright murder, and not give two shits about it. There's no room for decent, compassionate Neds in this game, and if you think there is, you clearly haven't been paying attention. It's no coincidence that the darker Tyrion gets as a character--the less he cares about his family, the more willing he is to lie through his teeth, the less concerned he is about murder--the better he's able to maneuver as a player.

I agree.

One can't have it both ways. Either she does not become a player like LF and QOT and remains good hearted and kind, or she becomes a successful player in which case be prepared to do some nasty things.

I am doubtful myself whether we will see Sansa the player. We need to see her gradually becoming a player since GRRM is not a fan of training montages. We have had whole books of Jon and Dany learning to rule, Arya learning to become an assassin and Bran learning from Jojen and Bloodraven. Unless TWoW spends considerable time on Sansa chapters, I doubt we are going to see a LF, QOT or Cersei type Sansa.

I think if she does get rid of LF, it will be more like what happened with Joffrey. Accidental. Or she sees a sudden opportunity to kill him and takes it. I don't see her sitting down and making long terms plans to get rid of anyone, be it LF, SweetRobin or Harry the Heir.

Of course Sansa won't end up like Cercei, Cercei is fiercely loyal to her family (with the exception of Tyrion). Between betraying Arya, betraying Ned, proclaiming Robb a traitor, and conspiring with her Aunt's murderer to cover up said murder, Sansa has shown that loyalty is a trait she will never possess.

Uh oh. Now you have done it :leaving:

[Pikachu101]

If Sansa does become a player, she'll be cold and calculating and wouldn't let her emotions control her judgement. This is the exact opposite for Cersei; she always lets her vanity, jealousy and avarice get the better of her.

So even if Sansa becomes a player she still wouldn't be another Cersei because Cersei's a terrible politician whilst Sansa always showed signs of becoming a good one.

[David Selig]

So Sansa from ACOK would've sacrificed herself to save a guy who tried to rape her (and raped other women) and was an accomplice in a murder attempt on Sansa? I highly doubt that.

[Sansa_Stark]

The difference between ruthless characters and Cersei is that Cersei takes it further than anyone else. Sure LF is ruthless, but his every act isn't cruel. That is the difference between him and Cersei. Cersei is extremely vindictive and is cruel based off emotion and will make moves that are crueler than necessqry.

[Newstar]

If Sansa does become a player, she'll be cold and calculating and wouldn't let her emotions control her judgement. This is the exact opposite for Cersei; she always lets her vanity, jealousy and avarice get the better of her.

But the "cold and calculating" players are ruthless, murderous, and don't give two shits about hurting children, or innocent people dying as a result of their actions. By extension, Sansa would become that way as well.

Sure LF is ruthless, but his every act isn't cruel.

Depends. His actions towards the Starks reek of a need to exact the cruelest imaginable revenge on Cat for slighting him. And while killing Lysa might not have been a cruel act in of itself, telling her the only woman he ever loved was Cat before shoving her to her death (to plunge 600 feet with that final revelation in her mind) was the essence of cruelty. That's easily as sadistic as anything Cersei's ever done. Cersei only wishes she could be that awful.

Sansa's gone through many horrible things, but in AFFC one of the few traumatic memories that seem to linger in her conscious mind is the memory of the look on Lysa's face when she fell.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

If she does

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K_FxyTvTxFw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DK_FxyTvTxFw

[David Selig]

Of course Sansa won't end up like Cercei, Cercei is fiercely loyal to her family (with the exception of Tyrion). Between betraying Arya, betraying Ned, proclaiming Robb a traitor, and conspiring with her Aunt's murderer to cover up said murder, Sansa has shown that loyalty is a trait she will never possess.

LOL, Cersei is fiercely loyal to her family, that's the funniest thing I've read this week.

Is that why she dumped Jaime and insulted once he stopped being useful and started questioning her, mistreated her uncle Kevan and her cousin Lancel, was glad that her father died so she can rule herself?

But that's just it, David Selig. You've made my argument for me: just as you're rationalizing and coming up with excuses for Sansa's actions, so too did Sansa find a way to do something that once would have disgusted her and put it out of her mind.

I think Marillion isn't an outlier. Marillion is precedent. Marillion, being a rapist, Sansa's would-be rapist, and a would-be murderer, whose death Sansa can write off as just deserts, but who was nonetheless innocent of the crime of which he was accused and was condemned to death by virtue of Sansa's lies, is a warmup for Sansa to perform a much less ambiguous, much more sinister act involving an innocent person, that, just as with Marillion, she'll find a way of justifying to herself (and in relation to which posters like David Selig will no doubt fall all over themselves defending her saying Sansa had no chooooooice). Will that act involve Sweetrobin? Maybe not, but it seems awfully likely.

Let me ask you this - if you have a choice between getting yourself killed and letting a guy who tried to rape you and tried to help someone else murder you - you would sacrifice yourself? Because I certainly wouldn't and don't see it as a moral failing if someone else makes the same choice as me.

[BKev]

I think the controversial chapter will be of sexual nature. So far, Sansa (much like Arya) has managed to keep a lot of her innocence. Granted it was much easier for Sansa, because she wasn't threatened to be raped every day out there in the wild, but she wasn't exactly safe near Joffrey in KL either. If I'm not mistaken, the "worst" thing that happened to her was Tyrion fondling her before he decided against bedding her.

I don't really know why though, I just have a feeling there will be something sexual about Sansa which will make the chapter controversial.

[Sansa_Stark]

U got trolled David.

[Sansa_Stark]

But the "cold and calculating" players are ruthless, murderous, and don't give two shits about hurting children, or innocent people dying as a result of their actions. By extension, Sansa would become that way as well.

Depends. His actions towards the Starks reek of a need to exact the cruelest imaginable revenge on Cat for slighting him. And while killing Lysa might not have been a cruel act in of itself, telling her the only woman he ever loved was Cat before shoving her to her death (to plunge 600 feet with that final revelation in her mind) was the essence of cruelty. That's easily as sadistic as anything Cersei's ever done. Cersei only wishes she could be that awful.

Sansa's gone through many horrible things, but in AFFC one of the few traumatic memories that seem to linger in her conscious mind is the memory of the look on Lysa's face when she fell.

cersei sends people to qyburn for no reason. She makes joff and petyr look like choir boys.

[Dicer]

The difference between ruthless characters and Cersei is that Cersei takes it further than anyone else. Sure LF is ruthless, but his every act isn't cruel. That is the difference between him and Cersei. Cersei is extremely vindictive and is cruel based off emotion and will make moves that are crueler than necessqry.

Are you sure about this? He sends a 11-12 year old Jeyne Poole to one of his brothels. He could have easily made her a lady's maid or a ward in one of the houses in KL. But he put her in a brothel. LF displays a careless cruelty that is in some ways even worse than Cersei's personal vendettas.

[Newstar]

I think the controversial chapter will be of sexual nature. So far, Sansa (much like Arya) has managed to keep a lot of her innocence. Granted it was much easier for Sansa, because she wasn't threatened to be raped every day out there in the wild, but she wasn't exactly safe near Joffrey in KL either. If I'm not mistaken, the "worst" thing that happened to her was Tyrion fondling her before he decided against bedding her.

I don't really know why though, I just have a feeling there will be something sexual about Sansa which will make the chapter controversial.

As I said, it could be. Sansa was supposedly going to sleep in Myranda Royce's bed when she got sidetracked with Littlefinger. And if Sansa's going to be queen someday, lesbian hijinx seem to be a requirement (Cersei/Taena, Dany/Irri, Margaery/???, etc.).

...In all seriousness, Sweetrobin seems more likely.

Are you sure about this? He sends a 11-12 year old Jeyne Poole to one of his brothels. He could have easily made her a lady's maid or a ward in one of the houses in KL. But he put her in a brothel. LF displays a careless cruelty that is in some ways even worse than Cersei's personal vendettas.

Honestly, what's worse? Doing cruel things because you enjoy them, or doing cruel things because you don't give a shit about human life? Does it even matter? Jeyne Poole's just as brutalized.

[chrisdaw]

Sansa will have a sort of dual personality, basically she'll become what it seems everyone believes Margaery is. Sansa will cultivate a public persona, sweet, charitable, caring and innocent. It will not be a total façade as she does have a natural inclination towards such characteristics. But behind closed doors and in the shadows she will become Petyr Baelish and everything Cersei believes herself to be.

Sansa wants life to be a song and has shown no small resilience to accepting everything that doesn't fit the mould. She is now coming to believe that life as a song is not possible, it's just not like that, but it is still her ingrained desire. She will seek to turn this desire into reality, she'll attempt to create a world that is on the surface the world in her dreams. She'll come to believe that to create this world on the surface she will have to ruthlessly advance her agenda in the murky world below.

On the surface she will be to everyone everything that they desire. To the smallfolk she will be good, kind and charitable. To the Faith she will be virtuous and moralistic, the blue eyed maid herself. To her armed forces she will be a beacon to rally around, the natural and rightful claimant to their lord's lands and titles illegitimately cheated by evil characters through their devious plans. To Tyrion she will be the young, beautiful but vulnerable girl who requires his protection and guidance, with the promise of unconditional love always just around the next corner. To Sandor she will be true, one worth protecting.

Behind the scenes she will be what she needs to be to maintain the facade, a ruthless and calculating murderer, liar and schemer.

She will essentially become what Sandor hates the most, a fraud.

The question will be, if/when Sandor and Tyrion realise what she really is, how far they will follow her down the path, and how far she is willing to go herself to maintain her dream.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Of course Sansa won't end up like Cercei, Cercei is fiercely loyal to her family (with the exception of Tyrion). Between betraying Arya, betraying Ned, proclaiming Robb a traitor, and conspiring with her Aunt's murderer to cover up said murder, Sansa has shown that loyalty is a trait she will never possess.

The fact that she was 11-12 and her actions had barely, if any, impact, and considering everything she suffered after that, there's still people calling her a traitor. I'd bet if you were in King's Landing, you'd have called Robb a traitor as well, and when said Aunt is trying to kill you...

Not to mention that Ned betrayed himself by revealing his discovery to Cersei and Arya doesn't even hold Sansa responsible for the Queen's doing ( And she even ended up paying the price in Lady's life)

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

U got trolled David.

Damn right. They should make a Smiley for that.

[SeanF]

Sansa will have a sort of dual personality, basically she'll become what it seems everyone believes Margaery is. Sansa will cultivate a public persona, sweet, charitable, caring and innocent. It will not be a total façade as she does have a natural inclination towards such characteristics. But behind closed doors and in the shadows she will become Petyr Baelish and everything Cersei believes herself to be.

Sansa wants life to be a song and has shown no small resilience to accepting everything that doesn't fit the mould. She is now coming to believe that life as a song is not possible, it's just not like that, but it is still her ingrained desire. She will seek to turn this desire into reality, she'll attempt to create a world that is on the surface the world in her dreams. She'll come to believe that to create this world on the surface she will have to ruthlessly advance her agenda in the murky world below.

On the surface she will be to everyone everything that they desire. To the smallfolk she will be good, kind and charitable. To the Faith she will be virtuous and moralistic, the blue eyed maid herself. To her armed forces she will be a beacon to rally around, the natural and rightful claimant to their lord's lands and titles illegitimately cheated by evil characters through their devious plans. To Tyrion she will be the young, beautiful but vulnerable girl who requires his protection and guidance, with the promise of unconditional love always just around the next corner. To Sandor she will be true, one worth protecting.

Behind the scenes she will be what she needs to be to maintain the facade, a ruthless and calculating murderer, liar and schemer.

She will essentially become what Sandor hates the most, a fraud.

The question will be, if/when Sandor and Tyrion realise what she really is, how far they will follow her down the path, and how far she is willing to go herself to maintain her dream.

I like this post. Margaery is indeed a liar, hypocrite, and murderer who has made the Smallfolk love her. And that is what Sansa must become if she is to prosper.

[silentwanderer]

Judging only by the dynamic with Sweet Robin and Littlefinger, Sansa is doing exactly what Cersi did: lie and manipulate, "let" someone die and participate in it, steal a holdfast from within and marry an heir for personal gain.

She has a few good years to use her beauty to get what she wants, but other than a smaller prize Sansa has already turned into Cersei Lannister.

[Pikachu101]

I like to think Sansa will create a facade around her, so no one can know the real Sansa Stark. So to the public she's Good Queen Alyssane 2.0 but behind closed doors she's LF 2.0

Either way Sansa is not becoming a Cersei 2.0, she's too intelligent

[Miryana]

Judging only by the dynamic with Sweet Robin and Littlefinger, Sansa is doing exactly what Cersi did: lie and manipulate, "let" someone die and participate in it, steal a holdfast from within and marry an heir for personal gain.

You believe that Littlefinger's master plan will go exactly as he's told us it will?

She has a few good years to use her beauty to get what she wants, but other than a smaller prize Sansa has already turned into Cersei Lannister

How has she "already turned into Cersei" when she hasn't even gotten around to child murder, treason, sexual manipulation and power hunger? After AGOT, Sansa has been all about hating Cersei and about hating the claim to Winterfell that means people don't care about her as a person, only about what they can get out of her. Being a bastard was a relief to Sansa (imagine Cersei's reaction!), and she hasn't lost her compassion. Her role model is Catelyn, a good and proper lady but also one who's conscious of rank and of how political success can benefit the whole family. If Sansa is going to end up as Cersei 2.0, she's got a hell of a long way to go, morally and sanity-wise. But I could see her as a more active Catelyn 2.0.