The R-Word

[Angalin]

Down's syndrome is proper medical terminology, too.

[~ZombieWife~]

I had an aunt that worked in special education and 15 years ago, she said "retarded" was the term that was used. I know that's changed now. Not sure what the term is and maybe that's where some of the trouble comes from. Who knows how to even figure that out? I mean, we can search it online, I suppose, but won't expert opinions vary anyway?

It's a bit of a minefield. Then again, I don't know how often I would need to use the clinical term in a specific setting. Part of me wants to be educated, though. "Mentally challenges," or "mentally disabled" seem to be the top choices as I look online.

I think what baffles me the most is when people get very defensive about their "right" to use these terms. I don't understand why someone would fight so hard for that sort of thing?

[Fragile Bird]

When I was young the word was used all the time. You retard meant you were an idiot. I stopped using it a long time ago. It's just wrong, IMHO.

Reminds of when I was in my twenties and dead baby jokes were all the rage. I sat at lunch telling hilarious dead baby jokes when an older salesperson sitting with us, and who I admired greatly, very gently told me he and his wife had only managed to have one child, who was stillborn. That cured me forever.

[TerraPrime]

[mod hat]

Getting in the use of the word being discussed in a derogatory way via a "joke" is not going to cut it. Don't try it. We're serious about enforcing bans for this offense.

[/mod hat]

[Tetrarch42]

I don't have a problem with it. Similar to "gay" it has a meaning divorced in colloquial (or perhaps more appropriately, vulgar) speech divorced from its origins, as others have pointed out. It's only a word to me; when I hear someone call something "retarded" I don't assume they're prejudiced against individuals who actually have mental retardation. If someone wants to tear into me for it, well, I'm okay with that too.

My psychology textbooks still use it, though by the time I'm in grad school I wouldn't be surprised to see them replaced with a euphamism like "cognitively challenged" or "cognitvely impaired".

I'd be interested to hear how other unprofessional (for lack of better word) terms used to describe mentally challenged people are percieved. Is it equally as offensive to refer to a person with Down's Syndrome as a "Downie", as I've heard it said? What about describing someone with Aspergers Syndrome as an "Aspie"?

Edit: Also, not to get off topic, but what about more general terms and euphamisms used in reference to cognitively impaired individuals? I find the term "Special Olympics" somewhat insulting and condescending. What makes the athletes "special", that they're intellectually disabled? They're not anymore special than I am in any area apart from athletics.

Are they simply being called special because they deviate from the population at large? Then shouldn't all olympians be "special" olympians? If there existed such a thing as an Olympic Games reserved for prison inmates, would that also be considered "Special Olympics"? Or is the term "special" a self-aware overcompensation reserved for those individuals seen to suffer discrimination (as I think it is).

[Warg Arry]

Reminds me of a joke.

What is better than winning a gold medal at the special olympics?

Not being retarded.

And don't get all butthurt people it's a joke.

Well, I don't know. Being at an intellectual and physical disadvantage. Having to work at everything 10 x harder with every aspect off your life. while others treat you, at worst, like you have some kind of contagious disease. At best, with awkward bemusement.

Being capable of great thought, consideration, love and humour. But being considered as less than human.

Never having a choice. But taking the life they have and kicking it's ass enough to do something like win an Olympic medal. Or even just get up in the morning and face people with a smile.

Pretty freakin spectacular.

Though it's true.

I don't think anyone would choose to be at a disadvantage in life. Ever. That's the point. They are forced to make the best of the shittiest end of the stick. No say in it at all. Dealing with unendurable pain and illness. Trying to work in and understand the world around them. All the while the odds are working against them.

It just fails to be funny.

Especially when the ones who are "Normal" are so rude, intolerant, unkind. In short; don't even try to treat their fellow human beings with any kind of understanding or respect.

And the words - Don't get Butt Hurt. Literally translates to; No longer respect anything I have to say.

[Aemon Stark]

Down's syndrome is proper medical terminology, too.

Indeed. What other term are we supposed to use? I don't think "Trisomy 21" will work with everyone.

"Cognitively impaired" is more of a geriatrics term for people with memory/cognitive deficits that are milder than early dementia. I've never seen "mentally retarded" used in any kind of medical context, but the phrase "mental retardation" is used.

[BLU-RAY]

I don't have a problem with it. Similar to "gay" it has a meaning divorced in colloquial (or perhaps more appropriately, vulgar) speech divorced from its origins, as others have pointed out. It's only a word to me; when I hear someone call something "retarded" I don't assume they're prejudiced against individuals who actually have mental retardation. If someone wants to tear into me for it, well, I'm okay with that too.

I can't speak to use of the word "retarded" but I've never found this to be a good argument about the term "gay" - I know we discussed this recently in another thread, but every time I see this argument I can't help but feel that the person making it hasn't thought it through. The colloquial/vulgar meanings of "gay" are distinctly not divorced from the initial meaning of the term - without the implicit baseline that homosexuality is negative/wrong/undesirable/worthy of denigration, "gay" as a pejorative is completely meaningless.

[sperry]

I am by no means a linguist, but didn't the word "idiot" mean essentially what the word "retard" means today, and thus the word "idiotic" would be synonymous with "retarded"? What about the word "stupid"?

At the end of the day, I have a hard time getting angry or offended at use of the word, but have accepted the fact that society disagrees with me and have cut the word from my vocabulary, as it's just not worth the potential hot water one could end up in saying it. It just seems that any word like "dumb", "stupid", "idiotic" mean exactly the same thing, and thus could be insulting to those who are actually born with medically diagnosable medical deficiencies.

[Castel]

I think what baffles me the most is when people get very defensive about their "right" to use these terms. I don't understand why someone would fight so hard for that sort of thing?

What baffles me is the use of the word "right" in this context. I can get the appeal of saying whatever you want while not giving a shit about various sections of the populace, people (I'm assuming Americans)however feel the need to prattle on about their 'free speech (!)" as if this is in any way relevant. It always seemed like a non sequitur.

[Tetrarch42]

I can't speak to use of the word "retarded" but I've never found this to be a good argument about the term "gay" - I know we discussed this recently in another thread, but every time I see this argument I can't help but feel that the person making it hasn't thought it through. The colloquial/vulgar meanings of "gay" are distinctly not divorced from the initial meaning of the term - without the implicit baseline that homosexuality is negative/wrong/undesirable/worthy of denigration, "gay" as a pejorative is completely meaningless.

Dumb as a pejorative is also meaningless when considering its original usage in reference to animals/people who can't speak which also implies a negative or undesirable connotation. Yet that word is typically considered acceptable to use in reference to things or people who are nonsensical, stupid, foolish, etc. Why do you think that is?

[Tetrarch42]

What baffles me is the use of the word "right" in these contexts. I can get the appeal of saying whatever you want while not giving a shit about various sections of the populace, people (I'm assuming Americans)however feel the need to prattle on about their 'free speech (!)" as if this is in any way relevant. It always seemed like a non sequitur.

Well I'm not sure I'd call it a non-sequitor, but it is redundant. That and a poor justification for saying offensive things.

[Ravenhair]

I don't use the word, and I really dislike when it is used improperly as a pejorative, particularly around impressionable children. My daughter's father does this, and it sets my teeth on edge. We've had so many fights about it.

I always thought this article was particularly good about the use of the word. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/opinion/sunday/a-word-gone-wrong.html?_r=0

And Ann Coulter still uses it. That says a great deal.

[~ZombieWife~]

What baffles me is the use of the word "right" in this context. I can get the appeal of saying whatever you want while not giving a shit about various sections of the populace, people (I'm assuming Americans)however feel the need to prattle on about their 'free speech (!)" as if this is in any way relevant. It always seemed like a non sequitur.

I've heard people--mostly younger folks--get very hostile when confronted with this issue. A few saying, "I don't appreciate you telling me I can't say that anymore." They do act as though they're losing a fairly significant privilege. In fact, nobody is telling them they CAN'T do it, but only that it's frowned upon. It could very well be an American "free speech" mentality - taken to a kind of vulgar place.

I don't use the word, and I really dislike when it is used improperly as a pejorative, particularly around impressionable children. My daughter's father does this, and it sets my teeth on edge. We've had so many fights about it.

I always thought this article was particularly good about the use of the word. http://www.nytimes.c...wrong.html?_r=0

And Ann Coulter still uses it. That says a great deal.

Holy cow. If this isn't deterrent enough, I don't know what is.

[Sci-2]

Dumb as a pejorative is also meaningless when considering its original usage in reference to animals/people who can't speak which also implies a negative or undesirable connotation. Yet that word is typically considered acceptable to use in reference to things or people who are nonsensical, stupid, foolish, etc. Why do you think that is?

I think the reality is words disconnect themselves from their original meanings over time. Now, if there is significant contingent of people who feel offended by the word "dumb" it's probably time to reassess usage.

What we do know is that people are offended by the word "retarded" and the word "gay", and that the reason those words are insults is rooted in their original meanings.

eta: Maybe 1,000 years from now, if our species makes it that far, the situation will change.

[Castel]

I've heard people--mostly younger folks--get very hostile when confronted with this issue. A few saying, "I don't appreciate you telling me I can't say that anymore." They do act as though they're losing a fairly significant privilege. In fact, nobody is telling them they CAN'T do it, but only that it's frowned upon. It could very well be an American "free speech" mentality - taken to a kind of vulgar place.

Well, they are aren't they? Now they have to, y'know, worry about the opinions of others (when said people are likely to make up a much smaller segment of the population) instead of just blissfully carrying on and saying whatever they wanted like they were doing before. Seems exactly like privilege. True, no one is outright forcing them not to say such things, but then, there are consequences, which is apparently unacceptable.

I honestly don't know if it's caused by the "free speech mentality" or if that's just a convenient space to fall back to, I just find it odd that everyone so readily uses an excuse that makes no sense to me. I find myself wondering if it's a deliberate tactic or if people that defensive actually believe it. Well, I suppose that it may not really matter.

[Honey Badger]

Down's syndrome is proper medical terminology, too.

One doesn't cancel out the other. In time calling someone with Down's can be offensive too, just like how "the R word" is considered offensive now. You can call someone "Downsy" right now and have people take offense to it. Summer Glau, Olivia Wilde, and Alison Pill have all been described this way, even though I'm quite certain they don't have it.

I honestly don't know if it's caused by the "free speech mentality" or if that's just a convenient space to fall back to, I just find it odd that everyone so readily uses an excuse that makes no sense to me. I find myself wondering if it's a deliberate tactic or if people that defensive actually believe it. Well, I suppose that it may not really matter.

I take it many of you don't listen to stand up comedy where the word is used constantly. Or fall against Daniel Tosh during his rape joke controversy. In a small room where you use an "offensive" word (or perceived offense, let's know the distinction), it makes sense to self censor to be polite. In a room where people are laughing, I see the free speech mantra being a much stronger one, especially in saying certain words aren't allowed.

Just remember that many of you are in an echo chamber here; Westeros.org in general is. There are other circles where the word isn't found offensive, namely in comedy circles.

[Tetrarch42]

I think the reality is words disconnect themselves from their original meanings over time. Now, if there is significant contingent of people who feel offended by the word "dumb" it's probably time to reassess usage.

What we do know is that people are offended by the word "retarded" and the word "gay", and that the reason those words are insults is rooted in their original meanings.

eta: Maybe 1,000 years from now, if our species makes it that far, the situation will change.

Fair enough.

[Honey Badger]

Just to give this discussion more nuance than "no, take away the word" versus "pry it from my cold dead hands," I'll dice this up further:

- for kids, there's no real reason to defend it. Teach them not to say it.

- for young adults and adults in private, leave them alone. I don't like thought crime and getting into other peoples' business. Changing dorm, frat, and sorority culture would set off a nuke.

- for adults in public, self censor so you don't offend random strangers.

- for medicine and science, the word shouldn't change. Brain development being retarded in its growth, fire retardant or a bacteria culture being retarded by an agent are proper usage. Political correctness in medicine/science would bring about consequences that you won't like, trust me. It's already way too political when you look at how idiotic the Bush administration has been towards stem cell research.

- stand up comedy, especially in light of Daniel Tosh saying a woman should be raped, should all stay. You're not going to publicly shame standup without seeing a lot of backlash, so find common ground instead of antagonizing the world.

[Castel]

I take it many of you don't listen to stand up comedy where the word is used constantly. Or fall against Daniel Tosh during his rape joke controversy. In a small room where you use an "offensive" word (or perceived offense, let's know the distinction), it makes sense to self censor to be polite. In a room where people are laughing, I see the free speech mantra being a much stronger one, especially in saying certain words aren't allowed.

Just remember that many of you are in an echo chamber here; Westeros.org in general is. There are other circles where the word isn't found offensive, namely in comedy circles.

I'm not really seeing your point. The point is that the "free speech mantra" is calling on a defense that really has no strength in this context. You are free to say what you like, people are free to make their objections clear.