The R-Word

[TerraPrime]

thought crime

Hyperbole much?

[Nas!]

I am also shocked when someone uses words dull, moron, imbecile or idiot.

Originally, these have become terms for people with different levels of below average IQ but they have been misused by society.

Actually, of those words, only "moron" had an original meaning which referred specifically to a person of low intelligence. The others came to mean, through variant usage, what they denote currently. I get what you're saying, though. Current reference to those words, like when people use "retarded" as a pejorative, reference common usage, rather than original meaning.

[Sci-2]

I'm not really seeing your point. The point is that the "free speech mantra" is calling on a defense that really has no strength in this context. You are free to say what you like, people are free to make their objections clear.

Yeah, Honey Badger, I didn't see anything in your list that really had much to do with actual thought crimes or actual threats to free speech.

At best it's advice for strategy, in terms of what battles to fight, but even there I don't know if it is useful. It seems like a "don't rock the boat" strategy, which is ultimately bound for failure.

[Honey Badger]

I'm not really seeing your point. The point is that the "free speech mantra" is calling on a defense that really has no strength in this context. You are free to say what you like, people are free to make their objections clear.

My point is dice it up. As crazy as it sounds, you're not going to get a blanket ban of the word. A gentle suggestion is the best approach. In the context of stand up comedy, it's an absolutely strong defense. Case in point, comedians have come out strongly in saying they'll continue to use retard. Not because they love the word, but because they specifically object to any censorship.

Hyperbole much?

Knee jerk much? Quote my post in its full context and argue the point. Do it soon before your whole argument is dismissed.

[Honey Badger]

Yeah, Honey Badger, I didn't see anything in your list that really had much to do with actual thought crimes or actual threats to free speech.

At best it's advice for strategy, in terms of what battles to fight, but even there I don't know if it is useful. It seems like a "don't rock the boat" strategy, which is ultimately bound for failure.

I don't think there will be censorship, just that any perception of it will just create two sides that always refuse to budge.

You guys are already forming the morally right side that doesn't understand why anyone would use that word. The other side has already formed their opinion that all of you are prudes. It's pointless and predictable how both sides already misunderstand each other.

Find the common ground that say people with retarded children are genuinely hurt by the word. Comedians already acknowledge this part and say they won't shout it in normal conversation. But they'll say it in the comedy club as part of their act. On your part, acknowledge that stand up comedians will always call people retarded, even if their intent is not to hurt disabled people. Come right out and define that as okay, and the hard walls won't form.

[Honey Badger]

I think what baffles me the most is when people get very defensive about their "right" to use these terms. I don't understand why someone would fight so hard for that sort of thing?

Everything I just posted addresses this. Trust me, you're creating a fight where people get defensive, even though I know that's not your intent.

[Castel]

My point is dice it up. As crazy as it sounds, you're not going to get a blanket ban of the word. A gentle suggestion is the best approach. In the context of stand up comedy, it's an absolutely strong defense. Case in point, comedians have come out strongly in saying they'll continue to use retard. Not because they love the word, but because they specifically object to any censorship.

Well, thank you for giving me suggestions on strategy (I'll beam it back to the hivemind) but that wasn't what I was talking about. So it seems a bit pointless to address me with your advice on tactics (while simultaneously accusing me of participating in groupthink) when what I was discussing was not about that at all.

But as for it being a strong defense in the case of comedy: no? You can argue that comedians and other artists should have the leeway to speak about controversial topics, but I don't get why this would rest on the popular conception of free speech as a shield against the anger of your fellow citizens.

[Gears of the Beast]

not interested in some farcical debate but there nothing wrong with using it in the "that show is retarded" context. Getting pretty sick of these PC whining fucks and their attack on how I choose to articulate my thoughts.

[Honey Badger]

Yes. People have never gotten anywhere when trying to stigmatise the use of words that others feel they should have access to. They just run in place.

So there is no goal? I thought the point was to get people to be more sensitive concerning the word retard. A decent goal, but implementation is everything.

Just in this microcosm of a thread, you have at least one who was offended at people telling him how to articulate his thoughts. But of course that's not the intent. So now what?

[Sci-2]

not interested in some farcical debate but there nothing wrong with using it in the "that show is retarded" context. Getting pretty sick of these PC whining fucks and their attack on how I choose to articulate my thoughts.

This isn't a real argument. One can just as easily say they are sick of people whining about how they have to be sensitive to the feelings of others.

What you seem to be trying to do is present your position as some kind of moral highroad in spite of the fact that you're justifying using a word that is derogatory to another group, that the OP notes hurts feelings.

It's an interesting inversion of moral frames on your part, but beyond that I'm not seeing any solid argument.

[Tetrarch42]

I don't think there will be censorship, just that any perception of it will just create two sides that always refuse to budge.

You guys are already forming the morally right side that doesn't understand why anyone would use that word. The other side has already formed their opinion that all of you are prudes. It's pointless and predictable how both sides already misunderstand each other.

Find the common ground that say people with retarded children are genuinely hurt by the word. Comedians already acknowledge this part and say they won't shout it in normal conversation. But they'll say it in the comedy club as part of their act. On your part, acknowledge that stand up comedians will always call people retarded, even if their intent is not to hurt disabled people. Come right out and define that as okay, and the hard walls won't form.

I think the word is usually just fine, and I don't percieve the other side to be "prudes".

[Inigima]

I used to use the word before someone (Mandy, I think) pointed out that it was inconsistent to use it while coming down hard on other slurs, and since then I've avoided using it.

I take it many of you don't listen to stand up comedy where the word is used constantly. Or fall against Daniel Tosh during his rape joke controversy. In a small room where you use an "offensive" word (or perceived offense, let's know the distinction), it makes sense to self censor to be polite. In a room where people are laughing, I see the free speech mantra being a much stronger one, especially in saying certain words aren't allowed.

Just remember that many of you are in an echo chamber here; Westeros.org in general is. There are other circles where the word isn't found offensive, namely in comedy circles.

I'm a standup buff. The word is used in comedy routines specifically because it's considered offensive.

The "free speech" defense is a nonsense red herring trotted out in the absence of any stronger arguments. No one is trying to take away your legal right to use the word, they just think it makes you kind of a dick. "Thought crimes" indeed. Fucking lol.

Hey, everyone. Look right here. Here's the other side. You see how YOU WILL NEVER GET ANYWHERE?

Now here comes the predictable Westeros response where you jump on this response for saying PC whining fucks. You already know this will devolve as you type up your thoughts.

Since you claim to be a standup aficionado, here's the inestimable Stewart Lee:

[polishgenius]

I used to use it (a lot) because I didn't associate it at all with Downs Syndrome or mental illness or anything - it was just another, harsher way to call someone an idiot, to me. When the association was pointed out to me, I stopped.

It does seem to be a word with different levels of offensiveness in different places, though - a bit like (though not nearly as extreme as) spaz/spastic which is mortally offensive in the UK but apparently totally cool in the US. Which I think is what causes some of the argument about 'retard' as opposed to other pejorative words of which the offensiveness or otherwise is pretty universally agreed.

[Aemon Stark]

I'm not sure if I've ever used "retard" as an insult. It's just so... 1991. And really since elementary school my vocabulary of colourful metaphors has become much richer and descriptive.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I refer to myself as a "moron" when I do something stupid. Anything wrong with that term?

[sologdin]

probably, scot. for consistency's sake, there should be a push to allow all intelligence-related pejoratives to fall into desuetude.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

GotB,

not interested in some farcical debate but there nothing wrong with using it in the "that show is retarded" context. Getting pretty sick of these PC whining fucks and their attack on how I choose to articulate my thoughts.

Then keep using it accept the social stigma that attaches from its use. And the ban that may be handed down on this forum.

[Prince Alexander]

Is it ok to call myself the "R-word"?

[Nichole]

I, like many others here used to use it but stopped once I realized that my words sometimes had the power to hurt someone when I didn't intend for them to. I think being made aware that life isn't all about me and the words I want to use was part of growing up. So, when a person clings to their "right" to use certain words regardless of how it has been pointed out to them that it is offensive, I think of that person as someone who hasn't yet grown up. Is this perhaps presumptuous on my part? Yes, but if you think that people aren't always making judgments on you for what you do and the words you use you are living in a dream world. Continue to use what ever words you wish, just know that others are forming an impression of you based on that use.

[Mya Stone]

I refer to myself as a "moron" when I do something stupid. Anything wrong with that term?

I prefer to just refer to you as a lawyer. It's a blanket term. :P

(:kiss:)