[SPOILERS]Is the main theme of ASOIAF missed by A large amount of readers?

[David Selig]

Sorry, no compassion for Jaime the murderous scum from me. Never ever. I hope he rots in hell. He deserves it for Bran, Jory and all his other victims.

[Miryana]

If the theme of ASOIAF is compassion, it's not working out very well. In Westeros the realm, it's constantly punished. In Westeros the work of fiction, well, it's not guaranteed to work either. Jaime's POV has actually made me dislike him more because it shows that even in his own thoughts he doesn't give a damn about his victims, only about his reputation and his view of himself. I've been waiting for "gee, I really do feel awful about what that child and his family had to suffer because of me" for three books now. It hasn't happened. Jaime's POV doesn't show him making peace to atone for what he's done. He's just being smart, consolidating Lannister gains and patting himself on the back because he's now getting it done by threatening child murder first (and being ready to move on to murder if someone tries resisting) instead of committing it without warning. And he does this with no self-awareness, no "this is a little thing next to all their losses but it's the best I can do without injuring my family's interests" - only self-satisfied Goldenhand the Just delusions.

Had he not pushed Bran then the kid would hold a secret that could bring war to the realm between the king and the lanisters. Let alone the fact that every heir to casterly rock was in winter fell and possibly could have been executed for treason if the boy told.

There would have been no secret to reveal if Jaime and Cersei hadn't decided to commit high treason in a stranger's home. Not passing off his bastards as the king's heirs would have been an even better way to avoid war.

[TepidHands]

Sigh. Always with the Jaime-With-A-Heart-Of-Gold topics.

He was having sex and making babies with his SISTER, the wife of the king. He lied to his own brother about the gang rape of his brother's wife. And yes, he threw a little boy out a window, and threatened to throw another one over a castle wall with a trebuchet.

Jaime is on a redemption path, perhaps, but it's a long one and he's not near his goal yet.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Sorry, no compassion for Jaime the murderous scum from me. Never ever. I hope he rots in hell. He deserves it for Bran, Jory and all his other victims.

I don't quite understand why some people are so willing to overlook the horrible things some characters did. Sandor cut a boy in half and laughed about.

[David Selig]

Jaime's POV has actually made me dislike him more because it shows that even in his own thoughts he doesn't give a damn about his victims, only about his reputation and his view of himself. I've been waiting for "gee, I really do feel awful about what that child and his family had to suffer because of me" for three books now. It hasn't happened. Jaime's POV doesn't show him making peace to atone for what he's done. He's just being smart, consolidating Lannister gains and patting himself on the back because he's now getting it done by threatening child murder first (and being ready to move on to murder if someone tries resisting) instead of committing it without warning. And he does this with no self-awareness, no "this is a little thing next to all their losses but it's the best I can do without injuring my family's interests" - only self-satisfied Goldenhand the Just delusions.

Exactly. Really well said.

When he calls himself Goldenhand the Just and pats himself on the back about it, he had just summarily hanged a few outlaws who were in the way of his army, without a trial or anything, no evidence they've done any crimes except that one of them had a Lannister cloak.

[Arya kiddin']

Sigh. Always with the Jaime-With-A-Heart-Of-Gold topics.

He was having sex and making babies with his SISTER, the wife of the king. He lied to his own brother about the gang rape of his brother's wife. And yes, he threw a little boy out a window, and threatened to throw another one over a castle wall with a trebuchet.

Jaime is on a redemption path, perhaps, but it's a long one and he's not near his goal yet.

Precisely. :)

[Slim Walda]

Of all of the ASOIAF characters, Catelyn is the one person I feel the most compassion for, all of her children are lost to her, that is a cross I couldn't bear. I feel she has had the most hardship in the books. I can forgive her mistakes, she was only acting in the best interest of her family.

[Pliskin]

He was having sex and making babies with his SISTER, the wife of the king. He lied to his own brother about the gang rape of his brother's wife. And yes, he threw a little boy out a window, and threatened to throw another one over a castle wall with a trebuchet.

Oh okay. So it's ok to take a castle by burning it down, but to use threats and take it without any bloodshed, no, it's evil.

Right.

He always did what he had to do. He didn't have as much luck as others with the choices he was given ans always put the ones he loved first, that's all.

So, yeah, he put a boy through a window. But he saved his children. And the thousands who would have died in the war (well, that was a failure, since the war did take place anyway).

And those who say he doesn't have any compassion for his victims, really, really, should re-read the books.

Of all of the ASOIAF characters, Catelyn is the one person I feel the most compassion for, all of her children are lost to her, that is a cross I couldn't bear. I feel she has had the most hardship in the books.

Funny, it's the one I hate the most. Intolerant, stupid, egocentric. I was hitting my head against the wall when reading her chapters.

[Minsc]

When he calls himself Goldenhand the Just and pats himself on the back about it, he had just summarily hanged a few outlaws who were in the way of his army, without a trial or anything, no evidence they've done any crimes except that one of them had a Lannister cloak.

I find it interesting how so many people repeatedly praise AFOC Jaime for becoming a "good" guy, though as you mention he hangs a number of individuals without trial.

Yet, because UnCat is typically condemned as being evil for hanging a number of individuals, despite her holding something that at least resembles something like a trial.

Though, this is not to say that I think AFOC Jaime is evil instead he still is very much a grey character(if not dark grey).

He always did what he had to do. He didn't have as much luck as others with the choices he was given ans always put the ones he loved first, that's all.

So, yeah, he put a boy through a window. But he saved his children. And the thousands who would have died in the war (well, that was a failure, since the war did take place anyway).

Funny, how you argue that he always put his loved ones first yet he still has personally betrayed every single person in his immediate family.

Also, he didn't push Bran to save his children.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Oh okay. So it's ok to take a castle by burning it down, but to use threats and take it without any bloodshed, no, it's evil.

Right.

He always did what he had to do.

So he had to fuck his sister in general, had to fuck her while in Winterfell, and had to throw Bran out the window? Even Cersei said he didn't have to do that.

He had to attack Ned and his guards, kill Jory, etc.?

The only sense in which he "had" to do any of those things was to maintain his own incredibly self-absorbed lifestyle. This is the logic of guy who shoots a teller during a bank robbery, and claims it wasn't his fault because she was about to press the alarm.

[Jon of the Dead]

If the theme of the series is compassion, GRRM didn't get the memo

[thelittledragonthatcould]

If the theme of the series is compassion, GRRM didn't get the memo

Pretty much.

Sorry OP but people not agreeing with your viewpoint does not mean that they missed GRRM's main theme, but rather what you want the main theme to be.

It's a hugely entertaining series with many great themes. Let the audience choose what they want to take from it.

[Arya kiddin']

Of all of the ASOIAF characters, Catelyn is the one person I feel the most compassion for, all of her children are lost to her, that is a cross I couldn't bear. I feel she has had the most hardship in the books. I can forgive her mistakes, she was only acting in the best interest of her family.

Well said, that is what I feel for Catelyn as well. :)

So he had to fuck his sister in general, had to fuck her while in Winterfell, and had to throw Bran out the window? Even Cersei said he didn't have to do that.

He had to attack Ned and his guards, kill Jory, etc.?

The only sense in which he "had" to do any of those things was to maintain his own incredibly self-absorbed lifestyle. This is the logic of guy who shoots a teller during a bank robbery, and claims it wasn't his fault because she was about to press the alarm. "Hey, it's not my fault! I had to do it because she was going to press the alarm otherwise."

I'm really having fun reading your posts here. :D

If the theme of the series is compassion, GRRM didn't get the memo

:lol:

[David Selig]

And those who say he doesn't have any compassion for his victims, really, really, should re-read the books.

I think you are in need of a reread. Not once he has spared a single thought for Jory, the two other Ned guards, the five of his own men who died so he could satisfy his bloodlust, and for any of the many thousands who died in the war which started because he couldn't keep it in his pants. He spent so much time travelling through the desolation in the Riverlands, and not once he felt the slightest bit of guilt for the major role he played in starting and leading this war.

[Slim Walda]

What I consider to be the main theme of ASOIAF is compassion.

When you consider A character like Jaime Lannister. GRRM kept us in the dark about Jaime and allowed us to judge this character in book 1 and 2. Come book 3 however we see why he has done the things he has done and in some ways is one of the series's biggest hero's. I felt strong compassion for Jaime which was all beautifully orchestrated by GRRM.

However this is a recurring theme in ASOIAF. There are lots of characters I see in these forums and elsewhere be ridiculed and hated for their actions.For instance Robb Stark has a large unfavorable audience, " he deserved what he got " , "it was all his fault for not keeping his oath" etc are recurring criticisms with hateful undertones for this character and others . Sansa and Ned also fall into this as well.

My point is a lot ASOIAF fans have no compassion for these characters and I strongly believe that GRRM wants nearly every character in his series to be viewed in a compassionate manner something that just is not happening in a significant proportion.

I do not have a dispassionate view on Robb, he was a decent person, it's the bad choices that he made, that frustrated me. He was duty bound as King of the North to act in the best interest for his people and he failed miserably. He definitely didn't deserve to be betrayed and to die the way he did.

[Pliskin]

Funny, how you argue that he always put his loved ones first yet he still has personally betrayed every single person in his immediate family.

Well, he finally understood that Cersei didn't really deserve his love anymore.

And he betrayed Tyrion once, when they were young. Doing what his father commanded him to do.

Also, he didn't push Bran to save his children.

He did. To save Cersei, his children and himself. And to prevent a far worse outcome than just the death of Bran.

You could argue that he made a mistake. And that he did a monstrous act. And I agree with you. But that he is evil/a monster ? No.

So he had to fuck his sister in general, had to fuck her while in Winterfell, and had to throw Bran out the window? Even Cersei said he didn't have to do that.

He had to attack Ned and his guards, kill Jory, etc.?

You don't choose who you love.

And I never said he had to do those things. I said he wasn't given a great choice. And that he chose his loved ones over the others (Bran, Jory, etc).

And come on, they kidnapped his brother. That's a declaration of war, you know. Yeah, in war, people kill each other.

Jaime never took down an entire house (with innocent people) like Cersei did after capturing Ned. He attacked the man who is supposedly responsible for his house. And his guards. Soldiers.

But still, it was a stupid decision, I grant you that.

But evil ? No.

[Slim Walda]

Oh okay. So it's ok to take a castle by burning it down, but to use threats and take it without any bloodshed, no, it's evil.

Right.

He always did what he had to do. He didn't have as much luck as others with the choices he was given ans always put the ones he loved first, that's all.

So, yeah, he put a boy through a window. But he saved his children. And the thousands who would have died in the war (well, that was a failure, since the war did take place anyway).

And those who say he doesn't have any compassion for his victims, really, really, should re-read the books.

Funny, it's the one I hate the most. Intolerant, stupid, egocentric. I was hitting my head against the wall when reading her chapters.

Nooo, Catelyn was a smart and level headed person, she was in my opinion grief stricken, she let her heart rule her head, much to her detriment.

[David Selig]

Funny, it's the one I hate the most. Intolerant, stupid, egocentric. I was hitting my head against the wall when reading her chapters.

This coming from a Jaime fan is just hilarious. Even his brother who worshipped him thought (with good reason) that Jaime was an idiot. And he's the very definition of egocentric, only one in the books who gives him a run for his money for the top position in this regard is Cersei.

[W1NT3RF3LL]

Its interesting that you bring this up. I saw an interview of GRRM, and he was asked if one of the characters was wholly evil (Forgot who it was). His answer was that there is nobody that is wholly evil, he went on to say that even Hitler wasn't wholly evil as he had compassion and love for dogs. I think his basis on all of his characters is based on reality. That we all are good and we are all evil. We all have our bad sides and good sides, it is what makes us human. I think that is exactly what he has done with all of his characters. Sure, we may all hate Cersei, but we can all understand on why she does some of the things that she does. Same with many other characters, especially Jaime.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I think you are in need of a reread. Not once he has spared a single thought for Jory, the two other Ned guards, the five of his own men who died so he could satisfy his bloodlust, and for any of the many thousands who died in the war which started because he couldn't keep it in his pants. He spent so much time travelling through the desolation in the Riverlands, and not once he felt the slightest bit of guilt for the major role he played in starting and leading this war.

I agree with this 100%. But I am a bit curious if our opinion matches the author's. The scenes Jaime has with Brienne and the scene where he's writing in the log of the Lord Commander are written pretty sympathetically, at least to me.