Who is the most intelligent teenager in the series?

[Minsc]

Him getting shanked wasnt the result of his own idiocy but the idiocy of one of his peons.

Last time I checked, it was Jon who thought it would be a bright idea to announce in front of his Night's Watch comrades that he was about to abandon his oaths/duties and get involved in Southern politics.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Last time I checked, it was Jon who thought it would be a bright idea to announce in front of his Night's Watch comrades that he was about to abandon his oaths/duties and get involved in Southern politics.

Last i checked, Bowen Marsh shanked the guy while still in the presence of a rampaging giant and within Tormund's extremities. I also recall Jon saying something of the nature of "you need not follow."

[Minsc]

Last i checked, Bowen Marsh shanked the guy while still in the presence of a rampaging giant and within Tormund's extremities. I also recall Jon saying something of the nature of "you need not follow."

Jon telling his fellow watchmen that they don't have to abandon their duty, doesn't mean that he isn't still abandoning his duty thus by their bylaws the sentence is death.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon telling his fellow watchmen that they don't have to abandon their duty, doesn't mean that he isn't still abandoning his duty thus by their bylaws the sentence is death.

In which case, you take the guy into custody, go through the motions and do it the right way. You don't stab him on the fly while everyone is distracted with something else.

Getting off topic, but yeah. I'm extremely leery of taking anything that happened in that chapter at face value.

[Minsc]

In which case, you take the guy into custody, go through the motions and do it the right way. You don't stab him on the fly while everyone is distracted with something else.

I am sure that Ned went through all the same motions when he beheaded Gared.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I am sure that Ned went through all the same motions when he beheaded Gared.

Yes, which is the point.

[Minsc]

Yes, which is the point.

That Bowen Marsh acted in the same manner as Ned? In how they both caught someone trying to desert and then executed them.

[Mark Antony]

I never really got the feeling that book Margaery was that smart.

[Florina Laufeyson]

In which case, you take the guy into custody, go through the motions and do it the right way. You don't stab him on the fly while everyone is distracted with something else.

Getting off topic, but yeah. I'm extremely leery of taking anything that happened in that chapter at face value.

Indeed.

You know, im thinking that if Jon had said "nope" to Ramsay's letter, he would be branded an idiotic heartless asshole for not jumping to go save what he believed to be his sister.

Yeahhh..gg fandom.

[Sullen]

I am sure that Ned went through all the same motions when he beheaded Gared.

To be fair though, Gared was isolated, and thus dealing with him with a simple swing of a sword was easy.

Jon has men (and a direwolf as well as a giant) loyal to him, that is a considerable complication.

I agree when you say that Marsh was just doing his duty though.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That Bowen Marsh acted in the same manner as Ned? In how they both caught someone trying to desert and then executed them.

But he didn't act in the same manner as Ned. One was a careful, considered and by-the-book execution, the other was a half-assed assassination attempt that only succeeded because everyone was distracted.

I love seeing Bowen Marsh apologists though, it really makes my day. The guy's going to be short a few limbs soon enough, so I suppose there's no harm in letting you kids have your fun.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

I personally don't think Jon was betraying his vows at all. He was bending them certainly but for all he knew Ramsay's threats against him AND the NW were genuine. He would be breaking his vows IMO if he said no or just did nothing either one of those responses most likely would have led to the destruction of the NW. As LC it is his paramount duty to lead and protect the NW at all costs, and that is what he tried to do. So what if he also wanted to rescue Arya, the professional reasons to march on Ramsay completely out weigh Jon's personal motivations.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Getting off topic, but yeah. I'm extremely leery of taking anything that happened in that chapter at face value.

Absolutely. We have no idea what was going on behind the scenes with Marsh, Wun Wun, the Wildings, the Queen's Men, the Mountain Men, Mel, etc... We really need more info before we can argue anything other than hypotheticals.

[Minsc]

But he didn't act in the same manner as Ned. One was a careful, considered and by-the-book execution, the other was a half-assed assassination attempt that only succeeded because everyone was distracted.

I love seeing Bowen Marsh apologists though, it really makes my day. The guy's going to be short a few limbs soon enough, so I suppose there's no harm in letting you kids have your fun.

As Sullen Sellsword said Gared was isolated thus allowing Ned to subdue him and execute him, while Jon was surrounded by an army that he shouldn't have according to his vows. Thus, it isn't like Marsh could just march up and force Jon to go to block before cutting his head off.

Simply, Jon was going to break his vows and Marsh acted upon it. Only this time Jon's friends weren't around to save his ass like the first time he thought about running away.

[Minsc]

I personally don't think Jon was betraying his vows at all. He was bending them certainly but for all he knew Ramsay's threats against him AND the NW were genuine. He would be breaking his vows IMO if he said no or just did nothing either one of those responses most likely would have led to the destruction of the NW. As LC it is his paramount duty to lead and protect the NW at all costs, and that is what he tried to do. So what if he also wanted to rescue Arya, the professional reasons to march on Ramsay completely out weigh Jon's personal motivations.

The only reason that Ramsay is threatening to march on the Wall relates to Jon's constant breaking of his duty by constantly involving himself into Southern politics.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

As Sullen Sellsword said Gared was isolated thus allowing Ned to subdue him and execute him, while Jon was surrounded by an army that he shouldn't have according to his vows. Thus, it isn't like Marsh could just watch up and force Jon to go to block before cutting his head off.

Simply, Jon was going to break his vows and Marsh acted upon it. Only this time Jon's friends were around to save his ass like the first time he thought about running away.

But if it was so clear that Jon was breaking his vows and deserving of execution, Bowen should have easily been able to do just that. Right?

As for this army, I'm going to assume you're in the camp that thinks Jon should have left the wildlings to die behind the Wall so that the Watch would eventually have to fight off thousands and thousands of wights. That's the Bowen stance and it's also mind-bogglingly short-sighted.

The only reason that Ramsay is threatening to march on the Wall relates to Jon's constant breaking of his duty by constantly involving himself into Southern politics.

And Ramsay demanding hostages from the Wall is doing what, exactly? This apolitical thing goes both ways. It's not "bend over for everyone else."

We're going off the rails, I'm afraid.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

But if it was so clear that Jon was breaking his vows and deserving of execution, Bowen should have easily been able to do just that. Right?

As for this army, I'm going to assume you're in the camp that thinks Jon should have left the wildlings to die behind the Wall so that the Watch would eventually have to fight off thousands and thousands of wights. That's the Bowen stance and it's also mind-bogglingly short-sighted.

And Ramsay demanding hostages from the Wall is doing what, exactly? This apolitical thing goes both ways. It's not "bend over for everyone else."

We're going off the rails, I'm afraid.

HOP ABOARD THE CRAZY TRAIN!!!

"WE'RE GOIN OFF THE RAILS ON A CRAZY TRAAAIN!"

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

HOP ABOARD THE CRAZY TRAIN!!!

"WE'RE GOIN OFF THE RAILS ON A CRAZY TRAAAIN!"

Yeah we're supposed to be talking about teenagers, not the walking dumb derpy pomegranate. :(

[Minsc]

But if it was so clear that Jon was breaking his vows and deserving of execution, Bowen should have easily been able to do just that. Right?

As for this army, I'm going to assume you're in the camp that thinks Jon should have left the wildlings to die behind the Wall so that the Watch would eventually have to fight off thousands and thousands of wights. That's the Bowen stance and it's also mind-bogglingly short-sighted.

And Ramsay demanding hostages from the Wall is doing what, exactly? This apolitical thing goes both ways. It's not "bend over for everyone else."

We're going off the rails, I'm afraid.

Jon's Wildling allies aren't going to care about Jon's Night's Watch oath thus they aren't going to allow March to just execute him.

No, I don't believe that. However, I am not a member of the Night's Watch nor have I ever lived in Westeros thus subjected the centuries of prejudices.

Jon was interfering in Southern politics before Ramsay demanded hostages.

[Sullen]

But if it was so clear that Jon was breaking his vows and deserving of execution, Bowen should have easily been able to do just that. Right?

Considering that Jon had loyal followers which would have objected to his execution, no. Marsh doesn't have the strength to carry out an execution.

I'm absolutely with you when you say what he did was short-sighted though, he should have let Jon go, duty be damned.