R+L = J v 64

[Audrey Arryn]

You've left out "it's cheesy", and I've forgotten about "it's just a theory and all theories are equally valid".

On a side note: a friend has just returned me AGOT but when we checked his reading comprehension, he had no idea of R+L. I had to explain him and he was totally mindblown. Kinda contradicts the usual "it's too obvious".

I agree, a lot of people use the "its too obvious" argument a lot.

Especially on topics like Dany is AAR, I would agree to justified reasons, but "its too obvious" is not a valid reason for me to accept.

From experience I made a topic on that and I was getting flamed "its too obvious" everywhere.

There lots of stories where prophecies etc. are played straight.

Just like in your case I had to explain to a friend how dragons could be lightbringer and he was shocked

[Zupoleon]

We have the benefit of several Kings Guards' POVs in the books. We know that what they do and say isn't always what they think. We know that Hightower said it was not his job to judge the King, but that was before he arrived at the Tower of Joy and after witnessing Aerys' actions against Rickard and Brandon Stark and a hundred of their allies and bannermen, as well as Aerys' rape of Rhaella.

Isn't it possible that the more he thought about it, the more he realized Aerys was destroying the realm and not fit to rule? I don't think it would have taken much for Rhaegar, upon hearing the news that his father had murdered his new wife's father and brother, to persuade Hightower that a change was necessary and that he would take care of it once the war was over. Rhaegar said as much to Jaime Lannister, although somewhat cryptically. And even if Hightower was not completely on board with the plan, he followed Rhaegar's orders to remain at the ToJ and did not return to Kings Landing. By the time the war was lost, Rhaegar and Aerys were dead and Robert was on the throne, the only King the three KG had left to protect was Jon.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Hightower was an honorable man, who was probably disgusted by what Aerys was doing (just not outwardly showing it).

My point is we have to be careful about what we assume Hightower's motivations are (beyond what we know of him), because that can become a slippery slope. If we accept that he stayed at the TOJ because he wanted a change of Kings, that would give credence to the detractors who say Jon is illegitimate, and will say the 3 KG were there following Rhaegar's orders, rather than protecting their King...

[Zupoleon]

We have the benefit of several Kings Guards' POVs in the books. We know that what they do and say isn't always what they think. We know that Hightower said it was not his job to judge the King, but that was before he arrived at the Tower of Joy and after witnessing Aerys' actions against Rickard and Brandon Stark and a hundred of their allies and bannermen, as well as Aerys' rape of Rhaella.

Isn't it possible that the more he thought about it, the more he realized Aerys was destroying the realm and not fit to rule? I don't think it would have taken much for Rhaegar, upon hearing the news that his father had murdered his new wife's father and brother, to persuade Hightower that a change was necessary and that he would take care of it once the war was over. Rhaegar said as much to Jaime Lannister, although somewhat cryptically. And even if Hightower was not completely on board with the plan, he followed Rhaegar's orders to remain at the ToJ and did not return to Kings Landing. By the time the war was lost, Rhaegar and Aerys were dead and Robert was on the throne, the only King the three KG had left to protect was Jon.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Hightower was an honorable man, who was probably disgusted by what Aerys was doing (just not outwardly showing it).

My point is we have to be careful about what we assume Hightower's motivations are (beyond what we know of him), because that can become a slippery slope. If we accept that he stayed at the TOJ because he wanted a change of Kings, that would give credence to the detractors who say Jon is illegitimate, and will say the 3 KG were there following Rhaegar's orders, rather than protecting their King...

[Zupoleon]

We have the benefit of several Kings Guards' POVs in the books. We know that what they do and say isn't always what they think. We know that Hightower said it was not his job to judge the King, but that was before he arrived at the Tower of Joy and after witnessing Aerys' actions against Rickard and Brandon Stark and a hundred of their allies and bannermen, as well as Aerys' rape of Rhaella.

Isn't it possible that the more he thought about it, the more he realized Aerys was destroying the realm and not fit to rule? I don't think it would have taken much for Rhaegar, upon hearing the news that his father had murdered his new wife's father and brother, to persuade Hightower that a change was necessary and that he would take care of it once the war was over. Rhaegar said as much to Jaime Lannister, although somewhat cryptically. And even if Hightower was not completely on board with the plan, he followed Rhaegar's orders to remain at the ToJ and did not return to Kings Landing. By the time the war was lost, Rhaegar and Aerys were dead and Robert was on the throne, the only King the three KG had left to protect was Jon.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Hightower was an honorable man, who was probably disgusted by what Aerys was doing (just not outwardly showing it).

My point is we have to be careful about what we assume Hightower's motivations are (beyond what we know of him), because that can become a slippery slope. If we accept that he stayed at the TOJ because he wanted a change of Kings, that would give credence to the detractors who say Jon is illegitimate, and will say the 3 KG were there following Rhaegar's orders, rather than protecting their King...

[MtnLion]

Wasn't Rhaenys four by the time she died? Which would put her birth at 280, and R+E's wedding some time between 278 and 279.

If nobody has said anything, the quote from the book is that Rhaenys was "two maybe three" when she was killed.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

If nobody has said anything, the quote from the book is that Rhaenys was "two maybe three" when she was killed.

Is that Tywin speaking to Tyrion?

[MtnLion]

Is that Tywin speaking to Tyrion?

I don't recall exactly who was speaking to whom, but I think Jaime was involved in the dialog. I think it is in Dance, i can search for it, later, if need be.

Rhaenys was born at least six months before Harrenhal, and no more than three years prior to the fall of King's Landing. Harrenhal to King's Landing was at least 21 months, but not more than 27 months.

[MtnLion]

We have the benefit of several Kings Guards' POVs in the books. We know that what they do and say isn't always what they think. We know that Hightower said it was not his job to judge the King, but that was before he arrived at the Tower of Joy and after witnessing Aerys' actions against Rickard and Brandon Stark and a hundred of their allies and bannermen, as well as Aerys' rape of Rhaella.

<snip>

I take Hightower's words at the tower as a good indicator of where he stood on the matters. He declares his support for Aerys in the first line. He declares that he is a Kingsguard, proudly. And he notes that he is living up to his vow. We have Hightower's own words:

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

[LadyMary]

I'm not disagreeing with you. Hightower was an honorable man, who was probably disgusted by what Aerys was doing (just not outwardly showing it).

My point is we have to be careful about what we assume Hightower's motivations are (beyond what we know of him), because that can become a slippery slope. If we accept that he stayed at the TOJ because he wanted a change of Kings, that would give credence to the detractors who say Jon is illegitimate, and will say the 3 KG were there following Rhaegar's orders, rather than protecting their King...

I take Hightower's words at the tower as a good indicator of where he stood on the matters. He declares his support for Aerys in the first line. He declares that he is a Kingsguard, proudly. And he notes that he is living up to his vow. We have Hightower's own words:

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Of course, this is all speculation and I think Hightower might have been persuaded by Rhaegar to at least not return to KL and let the Prince sort out the details of the coup. That gives Ser Gerrold plausible deniability and technically doesn't require disobey a direct order from King Aerys.

Ser Gerold could be a passive participant by "following orders" of Rhaegar. Again, this is my crackpot - admittedly complete speculation with no textual basis.

Anyway, my theory is kind of moot because by the time the Northmen arrived at the ToJ, Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Rhaegar's surviving son Jon was accepted by the KG as the true King, who they gave their lives to protect.

Someone upthread called it "suicide by Northmen" but maybe it was more of a last stand. Surely the KG couldn't have forestalled the "rebellion" any longer as the "Usurper" had already taken the throne. So their choices were to move the King (Jon) and his ailing mother maybe into exile, or stand and fight. I don't think Lyanna was in any condition to travel and that meant they were staying put and protecting their King.

[Consigliere]

Is that Tywin speaking to Tyrion?

The Tyrion/Tywin convo. in Storm is the only reference I could find.

I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of . . . two? Three?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

The Tyrion/Tywin convo. in Storm is the only reference I could find.

I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of . . . two? Three?

That's the one I was thinking of. Thanks!

It occurs to me that Tywin would have good reason to know Rhaenys' age because he was still Hand when she was born. Any uncertainty is probably attributable to him not remembering her exact DOB (ie he remembers the year of her birth but can't recall if she'd had her third birthday yet) So it might be safe to place her closer to 3 than 2.

[Consigliere]

That's the one I was thinking of. Thanks!

It occurs to me that Tywin would have good reason to know Rhaenys' age because he was still Hand when she was born. Any uncertainty is probably attributable to him not remembering her exact DOB (ie he remembers the year of her birth but can't recall if she'd had her third birthday yet) So it might be safe to place her closer to 3 than 2.

Just checked the app. It says that Rhaenys was three years old at the time of her death.

[Gogossos]

It's been a while since I ventured into an R+L=J thread. The arguments are still the same but I had some time today,so I read this thread from page 1 right through. It was fun!

[MtnLion]

<snip>

Someone upthread called it "suicide by Northmen" but maybe it was more of a last stand. Surely the KG couldn't have forestalled the "rebellion" any longer as the "Usurper" had already taken the throne. So their choices were to move the King (Jon) and his ailing mother maybe into exile, or stand and fight. I don't think Lyanna was in any condition to travel and that meant they were staying put and protecting their King.

I can't go with suicidal thoughts of the Kingsguard. The biggest reason is that they are extremely confident that if any of them had been at the Trident the rebels would not have won. By all accounts, these guys are fantastic swordsmen, and could stand against many times their number. I don't think that they thought that the rabble Ned had brought with him stood even a small chance at harming even one of their number.

[LadyMary]

I can't go with suicidal thoughts of the Kingsguard. The biggest reason is that they are extremely confident that if any of them had been at the Trident the rebels would not have won. By all accounts, these guys are fantastic swordsmen, and could stand against many times their number. I don't think that they thought that the rabble Ned had brought with him stood even a small chance at harming even one of their number.

I don't think it was suicide either. I'm sure they thought they had a chance against just 7 Northmen of no particular prominence as swordsmen, but they were up against a whole new regime. They may have thought the immediate threat would be easily dealt with, but they still had Jon and his mother to think about. If Ned Stark and his friends were killed in Dorne, surely someone would have eventually disclosed the information to the new King. How long before Robert would send a loyal army down against the three rebel Knights? What would happen to Rhaegar's son then?

I think they were stuck there because Lyanna couldn't be moved to a safer place in her condition. They put up the best defense they could but were eventually overpowered. They were just lucky that the one who came to face them was Lyanna's own brother and his loyal bannermen, and not some other random Lord who didn't give a damn about Lyanna's son and would have killed the baby or left him to die.

[ladyofslytherin]

I just ran across something interesting, and I don't know if this has been discussed at all in the previous versions of this thread:

In AGOT, Eddard IV, Ned spends a bit of time brooding about the incident on the Kingsroad that got Lady killed. There was one passage that caught my attention:

"Ned rose and paced the length of the room. 'If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself... no, I will not believe that.' Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in the Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once."

I missed it myself the first couple times I read AGOT, but this time, it struck me that the context of the paragraph is a veiled confirmation that the promise Lyanna extracted from Ned had to do with the Targaryens.

Now, that in and of itself isn't too remarkable, as it could be anything: a promise that Ned wouldn't seek further vengeance against Rhaegar or his family over what happened, or a promise to talk sense into Robert before it was too late. After all, we can't be sure how much Lyanna might have been told by the servants or the Kingsguard that were there about the events outside of Dorne.

Except that when you take into account both the timing of Ned's trip to the ToJ (after the rebellion was won & Robert was king) and Ned's general personality, it's fairly likely that Lyanna knew that both Aerys and Rhaegar were dead. Ned might even have done that whole "denial in the face of death" thing and tried to convince her that he'd take her to a master that could heal her & then they'd travel to King's Landing when she was well so that she could marry Robert, and that she'd be Queen of Westeros if she'd just hang on a while longer.

If Lyanna knew that there were no Targaryens left to protect by extracting a promise from Ned, what promise related to them could she possibly have wanted him to make?

Then you take into account all of the clues that paint the picture of Lyanna dying of childbed fever, and the fact that the Kingsguard likely wouldn't have stayed at the ToJ just to protect Rhaegar's mistress if most of the royal family was dead and her family had just won a rebellion, and you have your answer: Lyanna had given birth to a baby of Targaryen blood, the true king of Westeros with the deaths of Aeyrs, Rhaegar and (allegedly) Aegon VI. And so she extracted a promise from her brother to shield the baby's identity from Robert and raise the baby at Winterfell as a Stark.

I can't really see another logical conclusion here. Anybody got a different read?

[WhiteOwl18]

I just ran across something interesting, and I don't know if this has been discussed at all in the previous versions of this thread:

In AGOT, Eddard IV, Ned spends a bit of time brooding about the incident on the Kingsroad that got Lady killed. There was one passage that caught my attention:

"Ned rose and paced the length of the room. 'If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself... no, I will not believe that.' Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in the Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once."

I missed it myself the first couple times I read AGOT, but this time, it struck me that the context of the paragraph is a veiled confirmation that the promise Lyanna extracted from Ned had to do with the Targaryens.

Now, that in and of itself isn't too remarkable, as it could be anything: a promise that Ned wouldn't seek further vengeance against Rhaegar or his family over what happened, or a promise to talk sense into Robert before it was too late. After all, we can't be sure how much Lyanna might have been told by the servants or the Kingsguard that were there about the events outside of Dorne.

Except that when you take into account both the timing of Ned's trip to the ToJ (after the rebellion was won & Robert was king) and Ned's general personality, it's fairly likely that Lyanna knew that both Aerys and Rhaegar were dead. Ned might even have done that whole "denial in the face of death" thing and tried to convince her that he'd take her to a master that could heal her & then they'd travel to King's Landing when she was well so that she could marry Robert, and that she'd be Queen of Westeros if she'd just hang on a while longer.

If Lyanna knew that there were no Targaryens left to protect by extracting a promise from Ned, what promise related to them could she possibly have wanted him to make?

Then you take into account all of the clues that paint the picture of Lyanna dying of childbed fever, and the fact that the Kingsguard likely wouldn't have stayed at the ToJ just to protect Rhaegar's mistress if most of the royal family was dead and her family had just won a rebellion, and you have your answer: Lyanna had given birth to a baby of Targaryen blood, the true king of Westeros with the deaths of Aeyrs, Rhaegar and (allegedly) Aegon VI. And so she extracted a promise from her brother to shield the baby's identity from Robert and raise the baby at Winterfell as a Stark.

I can't really see another logical conclusion here. Anybody got a different read?

You're right. This passage really says a lot. Ned is thinking of how Sansa pleaded for Lady and Robert didn't listen, how he himself pleaded for Dany and Robert didn't listen. The whole passage is filled with with the deaths (or possible deaths) of innocents: Mycah, Lady, Dany, Rhaenys and Aegon. The logical conclusion is: when someone pleades to Robert regarding an innocent, he doesn't listen. If Lyanna had pleaded to Robert to save Jon's life, he wouldn't have listened either. At least that's what I understand from it.

[Alia of the knife]

I don't think it was suicide either. I'm sure they thought they had a chance against just 7 Northmen of no particular prominence as swordsmen, but they were up against a whole new regime. They may have thought the immediate threat would be easily dealt with, but they still had Jon and his mother to think about. If Ned Stark and his friends were killed in Dorne, surely someone would have eventually disclosed the information to the new King. How long before Robert would send a loyal army down against the three rebel Knights? What would happen to Rhaegar's son then?

I think they were stuck there because Lyanna couldn't be moved to a safer place in her condition. They put up the best defense they could but were eventually overpowered. They were just lucky that the one who came to face them was Lyanna's own brother and his loyal bannermen, and not some other random Lord who didn't give a damn about Lyanna's son and would have killed the baby or left him to die.

While I believe that one of the reasons they remained was because Jon was the legitimate king, I think it's one of many, because I do think the motivations of the KG are fluid within the bounds of their rules, in other words, if the situation merits it, then they do step out of their KG "box."

Certainly the actions of LC Cole regarding his role in the succession has ramifications down to the present as it seems to allude to the fact that it was not the Westerosi tradition to be ruled by Queens. At least to this point, beyond Dorne, we don't hear of any Queens ruling any of the Seven Kingdoms in their own right, having instead something akin to the rules of France.

He defied the will of Viserys I, and the daughter, first born and legitimate was passed over for the brother. And it would seem he made the choice because he thought it the better, stronger choice.

LC Hightower faced with the choice between Aerys and Rhaegar, may have chosen Rhaegar. After all, he had a direct order from Aerys to bring Rhaegar back, Rhaegar was not the king, so why did Hightower NOT bring Rhaegar back as Aerys commanded?

Crown Prince or no, Aerys order trumps Rhaegars if we strictly follow those rules it seems to me.

(And granted I'm not fond of the KG, so I take a jaundiced view of them as historically, they remind me more of the Roman Praetorian guard).

"While the Guard had the power to make or break emperors, it had no role in government administration, unlike the personnel of the palace, the Senate, and the bureaucracy."

So, while they didn't have a desire to rule, I think they were very much aware of their power behind the throne, especially absent the dragons.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yup yet another nail in the coffin for the doubters if you ask me.

I was stripping wall paper the other day, and I recalled how this is what I'd been doing when I clicked R+L=J. I'd been reading the books and was a third of the way into ACOK, from the outset the identity of Jon's mother had intrigued me. One of my reasons for caving in and reading ahead of the show was to see if I could figure it out.

I was running through the possibilities in my head and it came to me that Lyanna was the mother, and for a split second I thought Ned the father still, but then realised no way its Rhaegar, then after a few more moments I thought, and it was not rape either.

Came downstairs and made a brew grabbed the laptop and googled Lyanna is Jons mother.

Anyway it occurred to me whilst stripping the boys bedroom and recalling this incident, that the reason it "just came to me" is that the clues are in the text all through the books and I had subconsciously connected the dots, I certainly didn't read ANY of the lines which give it away and think, hmmmm that's peculiar.

So if someone brain can just come up with it whilst whirring away in the background It must be there. I knew nothing of the theory before this and was completely unsullied. But I have since asked around and so many of my friends & family just didn't pick it up at all and are shocked when I pose the theory to them.

Looking back at the evidence throughout the books its plain as day. I just don't see how anyone who's read the books and the theory can deny it.

That passage is really clear Robert kills innocents and turns from the responsibility of it. Sansa pleaded for Ladies life, as Lyanna had once pleaded.......for Jons. end of

[Ygrain]

Yup yet another nail in the coffin for the doubters if you ask me.

I was stripping wall paper the other day, and I recalled how this is what I'd been doing when I clicked R+L=J. I'd been reading the books and was a third of the way into ACOK, from the outset the identity of Jon's mother had intrigued me. One of my reasons for caving in and reading ahead of the show was to see if I could figure it out.

I was running through the possibilities in my head and it came to me that Lyanna was the mother, and for a split second I thought Ned the father still, but then realised no way its Rhaegar, then after a few more moments I thought, and it was not rape either.

Came downstairs and made a brew grabbed the laptop and googled Lyanna is Jons mother.

Anyway it occurred to me whilst stripping the boys bedroom and recalling this incident, that the reason it "just came to me" is that the clues are in the text all through the books and I had subconsciously connected the dots, I certainly didn't read ANY of the lines which give it away and think, hmmmm that's peculiar.

So if someone brain can just come up with it whilst whirring away in the background It must be there. I knew nothing of the theory before this and was completely unsullied. But I have since asked around and so many of my friends & family just didn't pick it up at all and are shocked when I pose the theory to them.

Looking back at the evidence throughout the books its plain as day. I just don't see how anyone who's read the books and the theory can deny it.

That passage is really clear Robert kills innocents and turns from the responsibility of it. Sansa pleaded for Ladies life, as Lyanna had once pleaded.......for Jons. end of

Poor reading comprehension and denial.

A couple of threads ago, I posted the results of an experiment which I ran with a friend of mine, a teacher of language and literature who has never read ASOIAF. I gave her some basic elements (the abduction and rebellion, Lyanna dying in a bed of blood and tying Ned with some promises, him bringing home his bastard whose mother's name is a mystery, and some dangerous secrets which keep haunting him) and asked her what she could make out of it. She replied that OF COURSE the boy is the son of the dead sister and the prince. Then I explained her who the KG are, let her read the ToJ scene and asked her about their attitude to the royal dynasty, mental state and reason why they were there. She replied - surprise, surprise! - that they were loyal and determined and staying on behalf of KG duty.