Alia of the knife Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 In terms of early communications, I always assumed they didn't know anything until Hightower arrived and he told Rhaegar about her father and brother, not telling Lyanna in her condition. That may have been the reason why he told Hightower and the others to guard her. Aerys was killing Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 In terms of early communications, I always assumed they didn't know anything until Hightower arrived and he told Rhaegar about her father and brother, not telling Lyanna in her condition.That may have been the reason why he told Hightower and the others to guard her. Aerys was killing Starks. I can see that. I've always thought they were hiding out from both parties: Aerys and Lyanna's family/the rebels. And it was only because Aerys wasn't around to override Rhaegar's orders that the three KG originally stayed put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Basically I think it's baseless-- having ravens flying to to ToJ would require that a maester had trained them at that location. Since we apparently know the ToJ was an abandoned watchtower, the assumption by detractors that regular news was being delivered to the ToJ by raven seems like a much bigger leap than the typical RLJ assertion that ToJ was remote and without news (other than what may have come via messenger) for much of the Rebellion.On a side note, it's certainly possible they could send messages by raven if they brought caged birds with them. So communication, if it existed, was most likely decidedly one sided. I think this is accurate. I've never, ever bought the idea that the Tower had a full staff, a maester, servants, whatever. I think it was Lyanna, the Kingsguard, Rhaegar before he left and eventually a wet nurse/midwife (Wylla), and that's it. I also think that the men at the Tower knew what happened because they were told directly, either by a proxy rider from Starfall or Ashara herself coming from Starfall. Someone told Ned where to find his sister and someone told the men at the Tower what had happened; Ashara is the common link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 I can see that. I've always thought they were hiding out from both parties: Aerys and Lyanna's family/the rebels. And it was only because Aerys wasn't around to override Rhaegar's orders that the three KG originally stayed put.Exactly. I have actually argued that this is one of the reasons why the KG were ordered to stay at ToJ - not only to protect Lyanna but to prevent Aerys from overriding Rhaegar's orders and disclosing Lyanna's location. :lol: Must've missed that one. What is their evidence? Let me guess, absolutely nothing. That's like me saying Starfall (and many, many, many other Houses) are not on the raven network because there is no evidence in the books of a raven arriving there. Maybe I should search for the R+L=/=J thread and post the "evidence" here since the OP refuses to join this discussion. Let's see exactly what the detractors have to say.It's same old the whole time - they start with incomplete information/imperfect grasp of the text, and stuff their ears to anything that we say. The all-time favourites are:- the KG were at ToJ because they were following orders- we don't know to what vow the KG were referring to- we don't know what the KG knew or not- the KG wanted to commit suicide by Northmen- bed of blood can be anything- GRRM said that polygamy was not possible- Jon is the son of Ashara/Wylla/FMD Supportive argumentation is: it is not stated in the books/ it is not stated that this didn't happen, I hate eeeevil Rhaegar, I don't want Jon to be king, I hate how people claim this as canon. I've just heard from someone how the secret marriage is unrealistic, while the person had absolutely no idea about half the clues. In terms of early communications, I always assumed they didn't know anything until Hightower arrived and he told Rhaegar about her father and brother, not telling Lyanna in her condition.That may have been the reason why he told Hightower and the others to guard her. Aerys was killing Starks.On the other hand, Hightower had to get some clue where to go because right before the start of the Rebellion, no-one knows where to find Rhaegar. I've been wondering whether Rhaegar might have tried to reach out to Aerys when things went south and Aerys either ignored him, or even told him not to come back. I remember neither the book nor the exact phrasing, but wasn't it something to the accord of the Small Council convincing Aerys to swallow his pride and send for Rhaegar? That sounds as if Aerys had known for some time where Rhaegar was, or at least how to contact him, but was refusing to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Supportive argumentation is: it is not stated in the books/ it is not stated that this didn't happen, I hate eeeevil Rhaegar, I don't want Jon to be king, I hate how people claim this as canon. Not to forget "It would be cliche/bad writing!!!11". I can't wait to see this faction raging if Jon were to become king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addam of Hull Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Exactly. I have actually argued that this is one of the reasons why the KG were ordered to stay at ToJ - not only to protect Lyanna but to prevent Aerys from overriding Rhaegar's orders and disclosing Lyanna's location. It's same old the whole time - they start with incomplete information/imperfect grasp of the text, and stuff their ears to anything that we say. The all-time favourites are: - the KG were at ToJ because they were following orders - we don't know to what vow the KG were referring to - we don't know what the KG knew or not - the KG wanted to commit suicide by Northmen - bed of blood can be anything - GRRM said that polygamy was not possible - Jon is the son of Ashara/Wylla/FMD Supportive argumentation is: it is not stated in the books/ it is not stated that this didn't happen, I hate eeeevil Rhaegar, I don't want Jon to be king, I hate how people claim this as canon. I've just heard from someone how the secret marriage is unrealistic, while the person had absolutely no idea about half the clues. On the other hand, Hightower had to get some clue where to go because right before the start of the Rebellion, no-one knows where to find Rhaegar. I've been wondering whether Rhaegar might have tried to reach out to Aerys when things went south and Aerys either ignored him, or even told him not to come back. I remember neither the book nor the exact phrasing, but wasn't it something to the accord of the Small Council convincing Aerys to swallow his pride and send for Rhaegar? That sounds as if Aerys had known for some time where Rhaegar was, or at least how to contact him, but was refusing to. I'm not sure how you guys deal with shooting down these counter-arguments constantly. I've only been at it recently and it's starting to give me a headache. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 I'm not sure how you guys deal with shooting down these counter-arguments constantly. I've only been at it recently and it's starting to give me a headache. With way more snark than I used to use before I came here. Putting the worst on the ignore list also helps, and I've started to avoid the Rhaegar/Lyanna bashfest threads because reason never gets through there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Not to forget "It would be cliche/bad writing!!!11". I can't wait to see this faction raging if Jon were to become king. You've left out "it's cheesy", and I've forgotten about "it's just a theory and all theories are equally valid". On a side note: a friend has just returned me AGOT but when we checked his reading comprehension, he had no idea of R+L. I had to explain him and he was totally mindblown. Kinda contradicts the usual "it's too obvious". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 You've left out "it's cheesy", and I've forgotten about "it's just a theory and all theories are equally valid". On a side note: a friend has just returned me AGOT but when we checked his reading comprehension, he had no idea of R+L. I had to explain him and he was totally mindblown. Kinda contradicts the usual "it's too obvious".After they had read the series, I asked both my girlfriend and a good friend who Jon Snow's mother was. Only after I started asking a few pointed questions - why doesn't Ned ever think about his affair, and would such an affair even be in character? - did they start to piece the picture together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 I'm not sure how you guys deal with shooting down these counter-arguments constantly. I've only been at it recently and it's starting to give me a headache.I have one. I tried to avoid the parallel KG at ToJ thread but couldn't do it ;)I think you have to just turn the other cheek at a certain point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alienor Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 My father reads the series as well. When I asked him who he thinks Jon's parents are his answer was "Why should that be important? He's Ned's son, the mother doesn't matter." If it was that obvious, he would have known it, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 I have one. I tried to avoid the parallel KG at ToJ thread but couldn't do it ;)I think you have to just turn the other cheek at a certain point.Is this the one I meant, or is there another around? My father reads the series as well. When I asked him who he thinks Jon's parents are his answer was "Why should that be important? He's Ned's son, the mother doesn't matter." If it was that obvious, he would have known it, too. It is funny how with some people, all you have to do is hint "my blood, not my son", whereas with others, you really have to lay it out in detail. I didn't get it on my first read but I did catch the contradicting versions of Rhaegar and the abduction and I felt fathering a bastard was totally out of character for Ned - both the adultery and his silence towards Cat and Jon. Then it occured to me that there must be something that he cannot tell but doesn't want to lie about it, I remembered the "my blood" part and went on a re-read of Ned's PoVs to confirm my suspicion just for whom he might have been covering up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Is this the one I meant, or is there another around?I think it's a different one. Started innocently enough, but took the predictable turn for the worse:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99432-they-were-protecting-jon-from-what-toj/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 I think it's a different one. Started innocently enough, but took the predictable turn for the worse:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99432-they-were-protecting-jon-from-what-toj/Another thread, the same person. Could it be our old friend Twinslayer in disguise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteOwl18 Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Another thread, the same person. Could it be our old friend Twinslayer in disguise? He has been strangely absent lately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 He has been strangely absent lately... That part about following orders does sound like his reasoning, IIRC. Posting under a new identity is sockpuppetry, right? Do the mods here have a way to check? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteOwl18 Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 That part about following orders does sound like his reasoning, IIRC. Posting under a new identity is sockpuppetry, right? Do the mods here have a way to check? I'm not sure. But the names are rather similar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Another thread, the same person. Could it be our old friend Twinslayer in disguise?Just joined recently (this week) I don't know how mods can check if you use a different email address to register. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Just joined recently (this week) I don't know how mods can check if you use a different email address to register. Email, yes, a different IP, I think not. However, Twinslayer has not been banned, so I don't see a reason for socking, unless for the sake of mere trolling. And, there were a couple of factual mistakes that Twinslayer probably wouldn't make, such as claiming the Freys polygamous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Email, yes, a different IP, I think not. However, Twinslayer has not been banned, so I don't see a reason for socking, unless for the sake of mere trolling. And, there were a couple of factual mistakes that Twinslayer probably wouldn't make, such as claiming the Freys polygamous. Yeah, tbh it didn't feel like a Twinslayer debate. More noobish. Weird coincidence though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.