Dany: The Darth Vader of ASOIAF?

[haemonculus]

Such is Ser Barristan's dislike of slavery, I'm sure he completely approved of the massacre. Ser Jorah didn't care one way or the other.

However, I don't think that readers are just expected to give Dany a pass over Astapor. In fact, once she hears that Cleon has seized power, and enslaved his enemies, at the end of ASOS, Dany speculates that she made things worse for everyone.

And I do not give it a pass, as I clearly staded. But two former lords of Westeros do. Can they be considered especially bad ones? I think Ser Jorah may fall on the darker side of the spectrum, but Ser Barristan is usually considered a paragon of virtue and honor in his world.

Are they both Darth Vaders too? Has Dany corrputed them? Or is simply the harsh reality that nothing she did overstepped the boundaries what is simply reality of war in that world, and some readers tend to impose our modern morals on unliked characters, while giving others a pass, on the basis how things work in that world?

[Nictarion]

However, I don't think that readers are just expected to give Dany a pass over Astapor. In fact, once she hears that Cleon has seized power, and enslaved his enemies, at the end of ASOS, Dany speculates that she made things worse for everyone.

But this could have been prevented by her staying in Astapor until it was stable. She learned that lesson causing her to remain in Meereen, when others were trying to get her to go to Westeros. I have no problem with what she did in Astapor, it was leaving that was the problem.

[The Drunkard]

And I do not give it a pass, as I clearly staded. But two former lords of Westeros do. Can they be considered especially bad ones? I think Ser Jorah may fall on the darker side of the spectrum, but Ser Barristan is usually considered a paragon of virtue and honor in his world.

Are they both Darth Vaders too? Has Dany corrputed them? Or is simply the harsh reality that nothing she did overstepped the boundaries what is simply reality of war in that world, and some readers tend to impose our modern morals on unliked characters, while giving others a pass, on the basis how things work in that world?

The fact of the matter is she never overstepped the bounds of what they would consider going too far. They in this case being a lovestruck slaver and a man with a history of serving sadistic nutjobs once he's sworn them an oath. That's not to say I think she's going be killing younglings any time soon, but that what Barristan and Jorah are willing to put up with can hardly be used as moral guideline.

[haemonculus]

a man with a history of serving sadistic nutjobs once he's sworn them an oath.

A history which he decided to put behind him and the very reason he left Westeros, breaking same oath, which was very important to him. So if anything you would think tyranny is now a red flag to him.

We actually see some of his thoughts, and he is genuinely convinced that Daenerys is not a bad apple in the basket of nobility, because he has seen many far worse, and few better than her.

And again, I am not even saying she is a particular good one either. She is not a Luke Skywalker. However if she was a Darth Vader, the world of ASOIAF would be crawling with Sith Lords of Palpatine's malice, is all I am saying.

We have to consider, all fair judgment by our morals considered, that characters are shaped by their surroundings, and Westeros is a far harsher place than our western world, so the characters it produces tend to be much harsher as well.

Who knows what person I would be now, had I been born in a poor African country, torn by civil war. I like to think I would not be able to commit atrocious acts (and I am indeed a very calm and non-violent person), but realistically speaking, I fear the capability for that lies in everyone, it just tends to remain dormant if you are never pushed to the edge.

[The Drunkard]

A history which he decided to put behind him and the very reason he left Westeros, breaking same oath, which was very important to him. So if anything you would think tyranny is now a red flag to him.

If he left Joff's service of his own accord I'd likely be inclined to agree with you, but he didn't want to leave Joff's service. The only reason he did was because Joffrey forced him out, and even as that was happening Barristan was pleading to stay a member. That he says he's changed hardly means he has.

We actually see some of his thoughts, and he is genuinely convinced that Daenerys is not a bad apple in the basket of nobility, because he has seen many far worse, and few better than her.

He would've had justifications when he was serving Aerys, Robert and Joffrey, too. I'm not saying that he's necessarily wrong when it comes to Dany, but if he is wrong he'll delude himself into thinking he's being honourable or serving the greater good or some other nonsense, and as such can't be used as a moral guideline to test when Dany has gone too far.

[C0bR]

Jorah is a lovestruck former slaver and a overall moral trash, whose POV we don't even have

Barristan is a spineless coward, who remains blind (or willingly ignorant) to the faults of his masters as long as he serves them and only starts looking at their mistakes and badmouthing them when he jumps the ship to a new ruler whose faults he can ignore anew

Excuse me if I am not going to take the words or thoughts of these two for some kind of a great moral barometer.

[FaSome]

Nah. Thats the thing, Dany wont be a generic stereotypical super villain. She'll still be Dany but just...not as nice anymore. Without mercy. But her goal may consume her to the point that nothing will stand in her way. And that includes all our favorite Westerosi.

Maybe you're right. GRRM's writing is just so grey and hardly ever black and white that I find it hard to see Dany devolving in such a way. I do agree she will be a darker character now, but I think she'll still struggle with her morals vs her desires. The difference now is she won't always give in to her morals and we may see some bad guy come out in her, but nothing akin to mr. Vader. Like I said though, maybe you're right and I'm wrong.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

She has accepted her mantra: fire and blood, and "dragons plant no trees."

And ain't it funny how... familiar... this phrase sounds?

Dragons plant no trees sounds an awful lot like We Do Not Sow come to think of it.

Perhaps the odd couple Targaryen/Greyjoy Coalition is not quite so odd as it initially seems.

[haemonculus]

Jorah is a lovestruck former slaver and a overall moral trash, whose POV we don't even have

Barristan is a spineless coward, who remains blind (or willingly ignorant) to the faults of his masters as long as he serves them and only starts looking at their mistakes and badmouthing them when he jumps the ship to a new ruler whose faults he can ignore anew

Excuse me if I am not going to take the words or thoughts of these two for some kind of a great moral barometer.

So they are both bad people, is what you are saying. As are all the Dothraki, including the handmaidens, Missandei is also deluded, clearly. The Mad Queen corrupts and blinds everyone she comes in contact with, or everyone is already a bad person to begin with, since no one in her environment ever questioned if she was, at her core, a good person (if anything she is considered too soft, like with the hostages).

Yeah, that seems reasonable and in no way shaped by a twisted outlook, created by frustration at where her arc was going (or not).

No, I will say it again. By Westerosi standards she is not a tyrant at all. The lords ther are used to "taking care" of potential danger. The small council was more than willing to kill Dany, when she was nothing more than a frightened little girl, that might become a danger at one point (interestingly only contested by the Ned, and spineless scumbag-coward Barristan).

All scumbags, sure. Still, people who differ from that are rare, and tend to die.

Rival houses get wiped out, bastards hunted down, toddlers taken hostage, in war whole villages get put to the sword, children included. And most Lords just roll with it (not that they like it, mind you), placing loyalty, the chance of gaining more power, or their own lives far above concerns for the common people, let alone their enemies.

[SeanF]

And I do not give it a pass, as I clearly staded. But two former lords of Westeros do. Can they be considered especially bad ones? I think Ser Jorah may fall on the darker side of the spectrum, but Ser Barristan is usually considered a paragon of virtue and honor in his world.

Are they both Darth Vaders too? Has Dany corrputed them? Or is simply the harsh reality that nothing she did overstepped the boundaries what is simply reality of war in that world, and some readers tend to impose our modern morals on unliked characters, while giving others a pass, on the basis how things work in that world?

I think that's fair enough. As Parwan has often stated, Dany is far more typical (possible magic powers aside) of her class than she is untypical.

[Mayura]

I was thinking about this topic and how Dany could switch to someone darker:

So far, Daenerys has been pretty selfless, putting her people and her duty before her own desires: she undertook to free the slaves in several cities, she decided to take her "children" with her wherever she'd go, she agreed to marry Hizdar even though she didn't want to, just for duty and to appease the Meereenese (even though she thought about how Rhaegar took Lyanna as "the dragon takes what he wants"). She made a camp outside of her walls for the refugees of Yunkai even though they were carrying the pale mare. Basically, she will have to notice that whenever she thinks she does something good/morally good, it doesn't change the fact that men have a general tendency to crualty and would destroy what she has done in a heartbeat.

Then, in the end of ADWD, we have Quaithe telling Daenerys "remember who you are". Because it's probable that Daenerys lost herself by wanting to appease the tensions in the east, save the slaves and so on. She has to remember she is Daenerys Targaryen and her words are "Fire and blood". So... If she decided to indeed go take Westeros (or other places) with fire and blood instead of being a compassionate ruler, she would be more effectively getting what she means to, but she would have to display crualty.

Is it the road Dany is taking? I do not think so at the moment but it's possible

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Then, in the end of ADWD, we have Quaithe telling Daenerys "remember who you are". Because it's probable that Daenerys lost herself by wanting to appease the tensions in the east, save the slaves and so on. She has to remember she is Daenerys Targaryen and her words are "Fire and blood". So... If she decided to indeed go take Westeros (or other places) with fire and blood instead of being a compassionate ruler, she would be more effectively getting what she means to, but she would have to display crualty.

Oh, Dany's entire ADWD arc is absolutely about the theme of her trying to be something/someone she's not, compromising who she is, and paying the [political] price for it. That's why she's spinning her wheels, going nowhere, and frustrating so many readers by still not moving towards Westeros. Thematically, of course she can't go forward to Westeros while she's struggling to redefine her identity (or rediscover her initial definition).

The Sons Of The Harpy want her dead and gone and her every change utterly repealed. And she's trying to appease them? The only way she could appease them is by killing herself. The ultimate rejection of her identity and mission. She must go nowhere/go backward for as long as she is attempting to do this impossible thing. When she abandons it, and touches base again with her wants and her goals and starts pursuing them again, then she will move forward (and be a much more entertaining read, whichever color cowboy hat she wears from this point forth). "Finding herself" by getting away from it all and going into the wilderness, well that's a very common and familiar thing for us, isn't it? We all have to do something like that from time to time. Though perhaps not quite so dramatically as riding on dragonback :) and I also half-expected her to run into Quaithe armed with a supply of peyote and ready to take Dany on more Vision Quests instead of Khal Kindling or whoever that was, but the point is she's out there and she can better tune out the chatter and the distracting bullshit she's gotten tied up and bogged down with in Mereen, and get back to visualizing the Red Door and rededicating herself the stuff she's been wanting since she first came into her own about halfway through the first book.

Chaining up her dragons -- her metaphorical children -- in a dungeon in order to keep them under control is perhaps the most heavy handed and unsubtle metaphor the series has seen since the Direwolf Discovery Chapter that started it all.

[haemonculus]

I think that's fair enough. As Parwan has often stated, Dany is far more typical (possible magic powers aside) of her class than she is untypical.

And I think that is fair enough. She certainly has done her fair share of pretty dark stuff, and long lost her innocence (I think that was indeed in Astapor, since before she was passive and quite powerless to stop Drogo from taking slaves, and also clueless what slavery really meant).

So what I see is a young woman, learning to be ruthless enough to actually stand a chance in Westeros, who is not overly cruel if it can be at all helped, but also not above showing her teeth or giving in to anger (I find she tends to lose it over woes of others, much more than her own though, which I do consider a quality within a flaw, if you like), and quite capable of terrible punishment.

A flawed character, for sure. Still not one I find to be naturally vile. The darkness there is, as with most people, comes from the life she has lived, and hers was a harsh one for sure.

[utecifa]

I could give a longer answer, but the short answer in my opinion is yes, I agree. I have thought for a while now that Dany is the true antagonist in this story. She doesn't even know it though. R'hllor/Azor Ahai/The Others are not what they seem either.

[pamparius]

Maybe because Starwars can be compared to almost any story on the planet because it's an unoriginal turd. Star Wars would be better off calling itself "Lord of The Rings (only not good): In space."

Also, obviously Jaime is the Darth Vader of the series. Dany is more like Luke Skywalker.

[The Drunkard]

Maybe because Starwars can be compared to almost any story on the planet because it's an unoriginal turd. Star Wars would be better off calling itself "Lord of The Rings (only not good): In space."

But it spawned one of the greatest literary characters to be written in the past century.

[Whitering]

Inspired by a good analysis on the subject:

As Apple Martini, stated Dany's storyline in Meereen with her being pitted against slavers was to build her up in the reader's mind as a hero before GRRM pulls the rug from under us as he is wont to do. In the 19th century, the "evil Arab" slave traders were the go to villains for the British, and so it comes to no surprise that GRRM would put slavers in opposition to Dany in her POV. Dany also benefits from not being conflict with other POVs in the book, but that will change when she starts the second Dance when she fights POV characters Arianne and JonCon.

The basic story of Anakin Skywalker is from a hero to villain. Anakin starts out as a compassionate human being with some issues, but his lust for power and unbridled passion or anger lead him down a dark path. he originally starts out fighting the Sith, but later ends up fighting the Rebe Alliance. Dany may be following a similar story as she suffers some of the shortcomings of Anakin: impatience and unbridled passion. Anakin Skywalker wants to save the life of the one he loves, and he becomes willing to sacrifice anything to achieve it, even innocents. After some soul-searching in the Dothraki Sea Dany comes to the conclusion of "dragons plant no trees", a reference to her planting olive trees, olvies being a symbol of peace. Instead it has been replaced with her house's words: fire and blood. She has decided that the easiest way to deal with issues of possible innocents getting harmed is simply to stop caring. The dragons are her children, and she is the Mother of Dragons, much like Anakin Skywalker becomes consumed by his title, Darth Vader.

Is the Dark Side stronger?

No, quicker, easier, more seductive.

Dany tried peace, but it proved to put a bitter taste in her mouth. She could have used Jon's saying: "A fair bargain leaves both sides unhappy, I’ve heard it said." She immediately starts sending envoys to the Yunkish sellswords and wanting to break the peace. It is easier for her to end the conflict by force rather than to compromise on a few things.

Barristan's Departure

"Better to become a beggar than a slaver," Arstan said.

Barristan has been with Dany since the end of ACoK. In ASoS, he tried to convince her however he could from buying Unsullied, and throughout ASoS and ADwD he tried to steer her in what he felt was the right direction, including advising against reopening the fighting pits along with Missandei. Barristan, her white knight, plays a bit of Jimminy Cricket, her conscience.

He would give half his teeth for the chance to try his axe against the Kingslayer or the Knight of Flowers.

Jaime and Loras are both members of the KG, I think Victarion will fight Barristan and kill him. With Barristan dead, only Tyrion will be left to restrain Dany's temper, and I don't know if he will be as effective as Barristan.

The signs of Dany as a Potential Villain

After Meereen had fallen, Dany nailed up a like number of Great Masters . . . Yet some days she feared that she had not gone far enough.

These are her thoughts in relation to crucifying 163 people, and she later allows a wineseller's daughters to be tortured after hearing of Rylona Ree's death. She also allows the two men, one who is one of the Mother's Men, to avoid punishement for raping and killing a boy's mother in contrast to her swearing bloody vengeance to Mago and Jhaqo for raping and killing Eroeh, also pointed out by Apple I believe.

Now you've become the very thing you swore to destroy

"Either you die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

With Stannis pressing his claim, Dany will eventually come into conflict with everyone's favorite family: the Starks. That is the red line for most readers, and she will go from protagonist to antagonist.

they [herons] all took to wing like they'd seen a dragon . . Cletus nocked an arrow to his string and brought one down. Tasted like duck, but not so greasy

He moved the catapult again, closed his hand around Tyrion's alabaster dragon, removed it from the board.

Tyrion's white dragon is removed from the board. The only white dragon I can think of is Viserion, and I think there is a chance Tyrion might ride him using the dragon horn, although I am completely unsure if that is possible for someone without Valyrian blood. I think the last three quotes possibly foreshadow Tyrion being killed while he is riding on Viserion in flight, possibly by a projectile launched at Viserion's wing. I think Viserion might survive, albeit with a broken wing, but Tyrion won't survive the fall. Either way Tyrion will be killed in battle.

Dany after suffering from the loss of her Hand (and possibly her husband) along with seeing one of her children, Viserion hurt, this will cut her deeper than Rylona Ree, and she will be quite angry. The Northmen would likely tell her that Rickon Stark, Ned's son, is their new king. In her anger and a desire for vengeance, I think Dany will decide to kill their new king, Rickon. Whether or not she knows he is only a child I don't know, but she will come close to breaking one of her own rules: the prohibition against the killing of children.

When the eunuch Varys told us that you were with child, Robert wanted you killed, but Lord Stark spoke against it. Rather than countenance the murder of children, he told Robert to find himself another Hand.

It is a bit ironic that Ned resigned his post over Robert's plan to kill Dany only to later have her coming to kill his son. Rickon will share several similarities with Dany before and after she fled Dragonstone:

• Dany lost her parents and her fondly remembered eldest brother, Rhaegar, was killed in war/ Rickon lost both his parents and his fondly remembered eldest brother, Robb, was died in war
• Dany was at Dragonstone, the ancestral seat of her family/Rickon will be at WF, the ancestral seat of his family
• Dany is believed to be the rightful Targaryen monarch, ignorant of Jon/ Rickon is believed to be the rightful KitN, but Robb's will says otherwise
• Rickon's direwolf is named Shaggydog/ Dany's quest to reclaim the IT is a shaggy dog story when R+L=J is revealed.

At some point Dany will eventually realize that somewhere along the way she had become what she hated, and stop short from killing Rickon.

Here entire character has been based on defending the helpless thus far. That would be quite the character drop, not arc, drop in my opinion. The factors of the peace that left her feeling bitter were the compromises she had to make that left people helpless, more slaves, more innocent people getting slaughtered in the fighting pits, more people, more people, always more people. It's her lack of ability to protect them in peace that leads her to consider breaking the peace.

We'll see, but I don't see her going full Sith Emperor or anything. I don't think Darth Vader cared too much about the innocent, umm, well, ever, even as Anakin.

[Fire Eater]

Here entire character has been based on defending the helpless thus far. That would be quite the character drop, not arc, drop in my opinion. The factors of the peace that left her feeling bitter were the compromises she had to make that left people helpless, more slaves, more innocent people getting slaughtered in the fighting pits, more people, more people, always more people. It's her lack of ability to protect them in peace that leads her to consider breaking the peace.

We'll see, but I don't see her going full Sith Emperor or anything. I don't think Darth Vader cared too much about the innocent, umm, well, ever, even as Anakin.

The people in the pits chose to fight out of their own free will with the former fighters asking her to reopen the pits. It wasn't her inability to protect them that led to her considering breaking the peace, as they weren't harming her people in the peace.

[Whitering]

The people in the pits chose to fight out of their own free will with the former fighters asking her to reopen the pits. It wasn't her inability to protect them that led to her considering breaking the peace, as they weren't harming her people in the peace.

That was a few people getting the pits reopened. If she had not been there, Tyrion may have been fed to a lion. So, you see, that was a case of a few lobbyists getting something that may harm a lot more people that are not there to vote on the issue. That's basically the problem with out political system in a nutshell.

[Fire Eater]

That was a few people getting the pits reopened. If she had not been there, Tyrion may have been fed to a lion. So, you see, that was a case of a few lobbyists getting something that may harm a lot more people that are not there to vote on the issue. That's basically the problem with out political system in a nutshell.

None of the pit fighters were forced to fight against their will as Dany said only people who chose to risk their lives could fight as a condition.