NFL Week 8: End of the Weeden Dynasty

[Jaime L]

I would also question whether Megatron really has better physical skills than Randy Moss. Randy Moss is like his own category when it came to speed, hands and verticality. The problem was just his mental game/discipline was never able to match his physical gifts.

Yeah, I would argue Randy Moss at his peak was the single most terrifying receiver ever. He never had anything close to Rice/Johnson's work ethic or possession receiver skills but in terms of ability to blow the top off a defense, no-one was ever better. I would still take Rice or Megatron over him for a whole host of reasons but Moss has kind of unique niche as the guy who probably led to more sleepless nights for DCs than any other skill position guy.

[sperry]

Megatron ran a 4.35 at his pro day at 6'5" 239 pounds. His vertical jump was well over 45" inches according to sources, although there's no official numbers on that. Johnson has elite top end speed, combined with being the size of a tight end. They were both completely uncoverable in their primes, albeit in slightly different ways.

[Maithanet]

Johnson has more natural talent than any of those guys. He's already had much better, more dominant years than anyone on the list but Moss and Rice. The only question now is longevity. If he can keep this up for 5 more years, he goes down as the best of all time. The final career numbers don't matter as much to me, because guys like Rice and Brown stayed aruond padding theirs stats long past their primes.

I also think, distasteful as he may be, that TO belongs high up on that list. He was a dominant force and the best receiver in the game for a long time. There's a reason teams put up with his act for so long.

Rice didn't exactly pad out his stats playing as a crappy receiver. At the age of 40, he was the #1 receiver on a prolific passing team that made the Super Bowl. Yes, he was only the best receiver in football for maybe 8 years of his 20 year career (1988-95), but that is still more years than Megatron has been in the league.

And as for TO, yes he was a hell of a player on the field, but he also destroyed teams. Two different teams gave up on him in his prime. Does that sound like the greatest reciever of all time? If you were to redo the 1996 NFL draft, he sure as hell goes after Marvin Harrison, and I'm sure some teams would take secondary talents like Muhsin Muhammad or Keyshawn Johnson ahead of him too.

ETA: If you'd had TO on your team when he became a trainwreck, you might think differently.

Exactly

[Lord O' Bones]

Then why not compare him with Vernon Davis who basically plays the same position with a different title?

ETA:

@ sperry

[sperry]

Then why not compare him with Vernon Davis who basically plays the same position with a different title?

ETA:

@ sperry

I don't think Davis belongs in the conversation. He's a very good, very talented tight end, while Johnson is clearly in the discussion for greatest WR of all time.

I think it's interesting that when all is said and done, the 2007 draft may have produced the greatest WR and RB of all time, and that Jamarcus Russell was drafted over both of them :lmao:

[Jaime L]

Megatron ran a 4.35 at his pro day at 6'5" 239 pounds. His vertical jump was well over 45" inches according to sources, although there's no official numbers on that. Johnson has elite top end speed, combined with being the size of a tight end. They were both completely uncoverable in their primes, albeit in slightly different ways.

Moss ran a 4.25 40. It's basically the difference between being as fast as the fastest CB on the field (who you will probably have 7 inches on) and being easily the fastest guy in every single game you play, a guy who can run past anyone. Feel like there's a difference in the kind of cushion required in these two situations. Megatron can hurt you in more ways, and is a fantastic deep ball receiver in his own right, but I believe when motivated Randy Moss was in a class of his own in that regard.

[Mexal]

Moss ran a 4.25 40. It's basically the difference between being as fast as the fastest CB on the field (who you will probably have 7 inches on) and being easily the fastest guy in every single game you play, a guy who can run past anyone. Feel like there's a difference in the kind of cushion required in these two situations. Megatron can hurt you in more ways, and is a fantastic deep ball receiver in his own right, but I believe when motivated Randy Moss was in a class of his own in that regard.

Not to mention that his stride provided deceptive speed as well.

[Lord O' Bones]

Kinda what I meant.

Speed is awesome. Physicality is awesome.

Work ethic is more awesome if you have the other two.

ETA: Remember, the question was why not compare the two after what you stated? Not who is better at their position. There are much better TE's in the league, but V. Davis isn't really one of them is he?

He's an over-sized wideout as far as I can tell.

[fuseprime]

Megatron doesn't have two HOF QBs throwing him the ball. I think as Stafford gets better, which he is, it will elevate CJ's game. He has so much more athletic ability, and it's not like Rice was catching balls in triple coverage like Johnson is.

That being said, ANYTHING can happen between now and the end of Megatron's career. I don't like saying "this guy is better than that guy", but it's hard to ignore the impact Megatron is having when it comes to Detroit's recent success. Also, keep in mind, today's NFL is much more favorable to receivers than it was in Jerry's day. It's tough. but I can say with full confidence, that Calvin Johnson is far and away the best receiver playing right now.

[Maithanet]

I think it's interesting that when all is said and done, the 2007 draft may have produced the greatest WR and RB of all time, and that Jamarcus Russell was drafted over both of them :lmao:

AP as the greatest RB of all time? Sounds like somebody needs a history lesson.

And while I'm certainly no Lane Kiffin apologist, I have read articles that he was pleading with Al Davis before the draft to take Johnson over Russell. But apparently Davis' well known infatuation with speed did not overcome his desire for a quarterback who can throw 60 yards from his knees. FROM HIS KNEES!!!

[Lord O' Bones]

As a SF Baseball Giants fan, this is difficult to ignore. So I won't.

However, that * applies to everyone.

ETA: Rice didn't absurdly help put those guys in the Hall of Fame?

Maybe one.

[Jabronius Maximus]

I think it's interesting that when all is said and done, the 2007 draft may have produced the greatest WR and RB of all time, and that Jamarcus Russell was drafted over both of them :lmao:

Not to mention Patrick Willis and Revis were also taken in that first round I believe. So at least in the present day, that means the best WR, RB, one of the best LBs, and an elite DB were all drafted after Jamarcus. It's hilarious how Jamarcus is the 1st overall pick in one of the best drafts in recent history.

Edit: forgot that Joe Thomas also went 3rd overall in the draft. Man the Raiders look dumber and dumber (if that's even possible) for their pick.

[Maithanet]

He has so much more athletic ability, and it's not like Rice was catching balls in triple coverage like Johnson is.

Rice was facing double and sometimes triple coverage for most of his prime. Rice may not have been able to jump over guys quite as easily as Megatron, but there are a lot more skills to being a great wideout than just that.

As a SF Baseball Giants fan, this is difficult to ignore. So I won't.

However, that * applies to everyone.

I honestly don't know what this means. Was this supposed to be in the baseball thread?

[Jaime L]

And while I'm certainly no Lane Kiffin apologist, I have read articles that he was pleading with Al Davis before the draft to take Johnson over Russell. But apparently Davis' well known infatuation with speed did not overcome his desire for a quarterback who can throw 60 yards from his knees. FROM HIS KNEES!!!

JaMarcus Russell is a great player, get over it.

[Lord O' Bones]

Rice was facing double and sometimes triple coverage for most of his prime. Rice may not have been able to jump over guys quite as easily as Megatron, but there are a lot more skills to being a great wideout than just that.

I honestly don't know what this means. Was this supposed to be in the baseball thread?

No. Just meant the rules and situations have changed and comparing one from one era to the other is difficult if not impossible.

[sperry]

AP as the greatest RB of all time? Sounds like somebody needs a history lesson.

And while I'm certainly no Lane Kiffin apologist, I have read articles that he was pleading with Al Davis before the draft to take Johnson over Russell. But apparently Davis' well known infatuation with speed did not overcome his desire for a quarterback who can throw 60 yards from his knees. FROM HIS KNEES!!!

Hence the "when all is said and done." It's not exactly a stretch to think AD could end up as the best RB of all time. He already has the NFL single game rushing record, came up 8 yards short of the single season record, and has a pretty reasonable shot at the career record. And he's done of all of this with exactly one season of QB play that wasn't in the bottom 5 of the NFL. Again, he has to keep it up, but he could get there for sure.

[Maithanet]

Hence the "when all is said and done." It's not exactly a stretch to think AD could end up as the best RB of all time. He already has the NFL single game rushing record, came up 8 yards short of the single season record, and has a pretty reasonable shot at the career record. And he's done of all of this with exactly one season of QB play that wasn't in the bottom 5 of the NFL. Again, he has to keep it up, but he could get there for sure.

But in this day and age, don't you think crappy QB play is essential to putting up the kind of numbers that he is showing? I mean, looking at the rushing champions since 2000, very rarely did that come on a team led by competent qb play. The only exception would be Tomlinson for two years with Philip Rivers and arguably Foster in 2010 with Schaub. Everyone else was on a team with a marginal quarterback at best.

Jim Brown was the rushing champion 8 of his 9 years in the league. AP is two for seven.

[sperry]

But in this day and age, don't you think crappy QB play is essential to putting up the kind of numbers that he is showing? I mean, looking at the rushing champions since 2000, very rarely did that come on a team led by competent qb play. The only exception would be Tomlinson for two years with Philip Rivers and arguably Foster in 2010 with Schaub. Everyone else was on a team with a marginal quarterback at best.

Jim Brown was the rushing champion 8 of his 9 years in the league. AP is two for seven.

Honestly, let's not compare apples to oranges. Jim Brown played in a league that wasn't fully integrated and guys were out moving refrigerators and selling insurance in the offseason instead of practicing football and working out. Brown is obviously one of the greatest to play the game, but statistical comparisons between him and a modern RB are meaningless.

As for bad QB play, not true at all. While it is true you aren't likely to get as many carries if you play in an offense with Peyton Manning or Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers, the ability to throw the ball keeps there from being 8-9 men in the box on every single play, which is what Peterson faces. QBs who can successfully convert a third and long lead to more plays and more touches for the RB. The number two and three rushers in the league last year had excellent QB play to help them out.

But, as I've been saying the whole time, he has shot, not he is the best or will be the best. If he churns out 5 or so more elite seasons he makes a very strong case.

[Kalbear]

I don't think Megatron will eclipse Rice simply because of Megatron's style; he's too physical of a receiver. Physical talents like that are impressive as hell, but they don't tend to last for the kind of career that Rice had. It would be shocking to see a 35 year old CJ playing well. Even TO, who was about the most physically fit person I've ever seen, didn't last past what, 37?

And it'd take both the ridiculous productivity he's having this and last season + the kind of longevity that Rice had to beat Rice.

As to AP - sorry. There are so many better RBs out there that AP hasn't come close to. Payton, Sanders, Faulk, Brown, Smith all are better than him right now. He could maybe be the best - but his injury history means that's not likely going to happen. And his style of running is also not a great fit for longevity either; Smith was absurd in his ability to withstand punishment, but that's not AP.

[sperry]

I don't think Megatron will eclipse Rice simply because of Megatron's style; he's too physical of a receiver. Physical talents like that are impressive as hell, but they don't tend to last for the kind of career that Rice had. It would be shocking to see a 35 year old CJ playing well. Even TO, who was about the most physically fit person I've ever seen, didn't last past what, 37?

And it'd take both the ridiculous productivity he's having this and last season + the kind of longevity that Rice had to beat Rice.

As to AP - sorry. There are so many better RBs out there that AP hasn't come close to. Payton, Sanders, Faulk, Brown, Smith all are better than him right now. He could maybe be the best - but his injury history means that's not likely going to happen. And his style of running is also not a great fit for longevity either; Smith was absurd in his ability to withstand punishment, but that's not AP.

You're arguing against a position nobody here is taking.