Controversial Chapter?

[aryagonnakill]

^ Just because Arya's dream forecasts her killing LF doesn't mean she can't also kill Robin.

[ctid1977]

True, maybe she goes on a rampage.

[Annara Snow]

Especially if it was Sweetrobin. Littlefinger has set up a situation where Sansa will get everything she's ever wanted: a handsome noble husband, power over her enemies, and a path to vengeance for her family. And all it would take is the death of one sickly little boy who's already hooked on a sleeping potion.

That would be controversial to the nth degree.

Except it's not everything that Sansa's ever wanted. It's certainly not what she wants now. Littlefinger thinks it is, because he thinks she's still the same girl she was at 11 and that she'd be impressed with a "handsome gallant noble knighted husband". While Sansa actually is fed up being treated as a pawn and engaged/married to various people just because of her claim to Winterfell, and she's not into "handsome gallant noblemen" who happen to be dicks. Right now she doesn't even want to get married at all and enjoys her freedom as a 'bastard' (which now seems sadly over). The first thing she's learned about Harry is that he's a womanizer who's already fathered two bastards, and LF's pitch is that he's handsome and 'gallant', making him sound like what Sansa saw in Joffrey in AGOT. Plus, the fact that his physical description sounds a lot like Marillion is another hint that he's not meant to be the man of Sansa's dreams. It's funny how LF talked to her as if he was convinced it was everything she wanted, not noticing how indifferent and unimpressed she was:

Nor did Petyr choose to explain. Instead, he smiled and said, “I have brought my sweet girl back a gift.”

(...)

Petyr Baelish took her by the hand and drew her down onto his lap. “I have made a marriage contract for you.”

“A marriage . . .” Her throat tightened. She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever. “I do not . . . I cannot marry. Father, I . . .” Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. “I am married,” she whispered. “You know.”

(...)

“Harry the Heir?” Alayne tried to recall what Myranda had told her about him on the mountain. “He was just knighted. And he has a bastard daughter by some common girl.”

“And another on the way by a different wench. Harry can be a beguiling one, no doubt. Soft sandy hair, deep blue eyes, and dimples when he smiles. And very gallant, I am told.” He teased her with a smile. “Bastard-born or no, sweetling, when this match is announced you will be the envy of every highborn maiden in the Vale, and a few from the riverlands and the Reach as well.”

“Why?” Alayne was lost. “Is Ser Harrold . . . how could he be Lady Waynwood’s heir? Doesn’t she have sons of her own blood?”

[setmyheartafire]

I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief. I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.

I always thought the savage giant was Littlefinger because his actual sigil is the Titan of Braavos. He makes the Mockingbird his sigil but it's just fancy PR to remove the "stain" of his actual station in the game of thrones. I think he is one of the most savage characters in the series causing the most bloodshed and terror to get what he wants. He is no savage warrior, but he is a savage nonetheless.

Since this happens in a castle built of snow I would be inclined to think the castle was Winterfell... as Sansa built it out of snow. However, since Winter is upon Westeros, this castle could be any castle snowed upon. (I still lean toward Winterfell.)

I think maybe Sansa will finally get back to Winterfell but need to remove Littlefinger from power there.

As far as Sweetrobin goes, I never thought of Sansa warging him but she does spend a lot of time with him and he does have her attention quite a lot. He's also kind of "feeble minded" though seemingly not so much as Hodor. I can, however, see Sansa offing him. She mentions several times during her narration how awful it is to be with him and how weird he is... I kind of get the drift that she would not be too sad to see him go. I wouldn't really be surprised if she was faced with a dilemma of offing Sweetrobin to continue to try to find a way out of her situation and back home and chose to off him.

This could, in fact, be her slaying a Baelish though. There are theories that Sweetrobin is actually Littlefinger's son with Lisa. Afterall he is scrawny and annoying, whiny, etc. All those things don't really sound like the picture we get of Jon Arryn of the Vale, and Lysa had already been with child by Littlefinger as a young lady. I would say it's possible SR is actually Littlefinger's son... funny, Sansa's a little bird, Robert's a sweet robin, and his father is a mockingbird... why does the caged bird sing? Or when? I think Sansa is going to sing a song eventually. I think Littlefinger's the opposite of the mockingbird in the classic To Kill a Mockingbird. "It's a sin to kill a mockingbird" because all they do is sing their hearts out for us to enjoy... I'm not sure how many people thought of the classicTKaM when they were introduced to Baelish. But I think it's kind of a nod to it... Baelish takes a sigil of something beautiful and pure and he is actually the worst chaos and terror there is. Or at least he ranks up there is awful people of Westeros... But I digress, if Sansa does off SR, and he is Littlefinger's son, there is also her slaying a "giant"... and SR is kind of savage if you ask me. He wants people to "fly" out the moon door afterall. I'm not saying he didn't know any better but it is indeed savage...

I would immediately, however, think this has something to do with a love interest or the Hound since there is a contingent of people who really want Sansa/Sandor to happen in any way it can happen. Much of the fanfiction for this series in literature and tv show revolves around Sansa and Sandor Clegane. (The majority of the rest seems to revolve around Arya and Gendry and Rhaegar and Lyanna, in case you were interested and didn't know.)

Though I love the idea of Sansa taking over the Rock... that would be fantastic and would make me like her a little bit.

I honestly can't stand book Sansa... though TV Sansa has kind of warmed me to her the tiniest bit. I don't know if it's that I can't relate to book Sansa at all, or what. But I really dislike her and find her actions in the beginning deplorable! I felt she was as much an antagonist as Joffrey in AGoT. TV Sansa has her moments where I feel the same, but the show somehow manages to convey to me that she is really a victim and not as awful as I thought. Weird? Usually much more can be conveyed in a novel so I'm confused how that works for me. Anyone else have the same experience, or am I ultrastrange?

[Woman of War]

No, you are not ultrastrange.

I have a very bad conscience but I even have to force myself to feel the right degree of compassion a fictional character deserves since Sansa is so different from me and her way of thinking would for sure not have been mine at the same age. So of course I pity the poor girl but I cannot really warm up to that character. And the over the top worshipping and infatuation by some parts of fandom do not help. She is not my girl. But she might be at some point of the story if or when she takes her fate into her own hands, no matter how white, dark or grey she may be in the end.

But HBO Sansa , older, prouder and more mature manages to make me relate more to the character.

[aryagonnakill]

^^ TV Sansa's also pretty good looking, lol. Might have something to do with it.

[Woman of War]

^^ TV Sansa's also pretty good looking, lol. Might have something to do with it.

Actually not. Book Sansa may be even more beautiful in my inner image. I mean, of course Sophie Turner is good looking but she is strong, broad shouldered and very tall, so she does not really personify the vulnerable High Maintenance Girl Sansa to me, she looks as if she could steal some guard's sword and defend herself. Admirable but not really Sansa. It is her acting tha does the trick for me. And here she can really transfer "my skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel". A beautiful quote and yet not really believable from book Sansa while Sophie Turner shows it even if she has some overly clueless moments with Margaery. But she is not as limited by her own helpless passivity as book Sansa. An inner personality strength, resilience without the armor of exceptional intelligence, cunning or imagination , more strength than her book counterpart.

If I'd fancy a woman in the series it would be Dany for me, sorry ;)

[David Selig]

Anyone with experience on this forum should know that almost everything could be controversial, especially when it comes to a polarising character. It really doesn't have to be something major like a murder. So it's hard to speculate really, we have too little info.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Just because Arya's dream forecasts her killing LF doesn't mean she can't also kill Robin.

Where did Arya dream she killed LF?

Holy C---!

I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief. I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.

I don't know where this quote comes from or who the dreamer is but if the maid is Sansa, the Giant is not LF but Sweet Robin. The boy says he's a Giant when he knocks over her snow castle.

So, sadly, this would lead me to conclude Sansa does indeed kill young Robert Arryn.

Hence the controversial chapter is SR's murder by Sansa.

I'm now depressed.

My only hope is what another poster said re: LF bears the Titan as one of his symbols.

But she might kill them both, as well. *sigh*

[Gheimhridh ag teacht]

I don't know where this quote comes from or who the dreamer is but if the maid is Sansa, the Giant is not LF but Sweet Robin. The boy says he's a Giant when he knocks over her snow castle.

So, sadly, this would lead me to conclude Sansa does indeed kill young Robert Arryn.

Hence the controversial chapter is SR's murder by Sansa.

I'm now depressed.

My only hope is what another poster said re: LF bears the Titan as one of his symbols.

But she might kill them both, as well. *sigh*

How does Sweet Robin equate to 'savage giant'...I've always believed that was Littlefinger, and I don't see any reason to change that view (except I'm also amenable to the idea of it being Winterfell, and un-Gregor). I'm more inclined to believe that the controversy will be Sansa's agreeing to something very underhand that helps LF, and that we the reader will condemn her (again) for.

But I'm hopeful it'll all turn out to be part of Sansa's larger plan to kill LF, take over the Vale, and storm Winterfell like Nymeria!

Also, is that quote not from the ghost at High Heart talking to the Brotherhood? Not Arya's dream.

[aryagonnakill]

Actually not. Book Sansa may be even more beautiful in my inner image. I mean, of course Sophie Turner is good looking but she is strong, broad shouldered and very tall, so she does not really personify the vulnerable High Maintenance Girl Sansa to me, she looks as if she could steal some guard's sword and defend herself. Admirable but not really Sansa. It is her acting tha does the trick for me. And here she can really transfer "my skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel". A beautiful quote and yet not really believable from book Sansa while Sophie Turner shows it even if she has some overly clueless moments with Margaery. But she is not as limited by her own helpless passivity as book Sansa. An inner personality strength, resilience without the armor of exceptional intelligence, cunning or imagination , more strength than her book counterpart.

If I'd fancy a woman in the series it would be Dany for me, sorry ;)

I'd have picked the whore who wasn't even in the book, lol. I still say the actress who plays Sansa is hot, I didn't mean to go into a whole psych analysis of her, it was more of a joke.

[aryagonnakill]

Where did Arya dream she killed LF?

Holy C---!

I don't know where this quote comes from or who the dreamer is but if the maid is Sansa, the Giant is not LF but Sweet Robin. The boy says he's a Giant when he knocks over her snow castle.

So, sadly, this would lead me to conclude Sansa does indeed kill young Robert Arryn.

Hence the controversial chapter is SR's murder by Sansa.

I'm now depressed.

My only hope is what another poster said re: LF bears the Titan as one of his symbols.

But she might kill them both, as well. *sigh*

I really don't think this is the case, the vision definitely takes place in a real, non metaphorical way when Sansa builds Winterfell out of snow and sweet robin brings his doll over claiming he is a giant and Sansa rips its head off, but that seems to just be a red herring. It could also be noted that just after this happens Baelish comes over and kisses her, maybe this is again foreshadowing that Baelishes 1 weakness will due him in, just like he told Sansa he does to everyone else. Even metaphorically I really don't think sweet robin could be called a savage giant.

[TheReal_Rebel]

How does Sweet Robin equate to 'savage giant'...I've always believed that was Littlefinger, and I don't see any reason to change that view (except I'm also amenable to the idea of it being Winterfell, and un-Gregor). I'm more inclined to believe that the controversy will be Sansa's agreeing to something very underhand that helps LF, and that we the reader will condemn her (again) for.

But I'm hopeful it'll all turn out to be part of Sansa's larger plan to kill LF, take over the Vale, and storm Winterfell like Nymeria!

Also, is that quote not from the ghost at High Heart talking to the Brotherhood? Not Arya's dream.

I really don't think this is the case, the vision definitely takes place in a real, non metaphorical way when Sansa builds Winterfell out of snow and sweet robin brings his doll over claiming he is a giant and Sansa rips its head off, but that seems to just be a red herring. It could also be noted that just after this happens Baelish comes over and kisses her, maybe this is again foreshadowing that Baelishes 1 weakness will due him in, just like he told Sansa he does to everyone else. Even metaphorically I really don't think sweet robin could be called a savage giant.

I hope you both are right.

I heard an interesting thing today at my local comics shop. There was a young man claiming the chapter from TWoW in ADWD paperback is a Sansa chapter. Gonna check on Friday.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

I hope you both are right.

I heard an interesting thing today at my local comics shop. There was a young man claiming the chapter from TWoW in ADWD paperback is a Sansa chapter. Gonna check on Friday.

It isn't, I can assure you its Barristan 1

[Fitzochris]

Could the giant be Ramsay Bolton? He's at a castle in the snow. He's sure as hell gonna be giving 'Arya' a savage time. Just right then, that the real Arya brings him down.

[Annara Snow]

Could the giant be Ramsay Bolton? He's at a castle in the snow. He's sure as hell gonna be giving 'Arya' a savage time. Just right then, that the real Arya brings him down.

The maid who slays the giant is supposed to Sansa, not Arya. Arya was not the "maid at the wedding with the purple serpents in her hair".

[Old Ida]

.

Or, it could simply be her denying being Ned Stark's daughter to someone who has discovered her identity, and claiming that LF is her true father.

Controversial in some quarters of the fandom might also have to do with the SanSan ship. She might hear what happened in the Saltpans and decide to hate him? I don't really know what it would be.

I also have my pet theory that the content has to do with her acting against Tyrion. She is unable to get married as long as he is still alive or she somehow gets an annulment. It would be controversial with the many Tyrion fans if she does not attempt to stop LF from hiring an assassin to off him, or if she further drags Tyrion's name through the mud in order to receive the annulment.

Sorry but I am still clumsy with the quote button.

I think is her denying Ned would be hard to take. But that Sansa do something "controversial" ? Why should she not go a little "gray" as any other character. She sure has many reason too. And better than some. I will still be in her "train" even if she do something gray,

I think of her as the"mother/queen " of the Stark family and she must do what a woman must to do!

The only thing I could not forgive her is if she fell head over heal over the Big Bad Littlefinger for good. NO WAY!!

[Bloodraven's Lost Eye]

I'm convinced the controversial chapter will be Sansa killing or being accomplice in the death of Sweetrobin. I mean all the parts between Sansa and Sweetrobin were just screaming "finish it already!" and just generall sense of imminent death.

there's something to be said of LF's sigil beeing the titan of braavos, but Sansa killing LF wouldn't be controversial it'd be kick-ass.

[Myk Lonmouth]

Sansa's going to give it up to Littlefinger. :cool4:

[TheReal_Rebel]

It isn't, I can assure you its Barristan 1

Having looked through the books, it is indeed a Ser Barristan chapter.

Unless, as a publicity stunt, among all the paperback copies of ADWD there is one Sansa Chapter thrown in five or so books, like Willy Wonka's a Golden ticket. [i am joking, to be clear for those too young or too literal ]

Could you imagine the uproar? ! ;-D Bookstores torn apart, riot police, etc! Lol!

How does Sweet Robin equate to 'savage giant'...I've always believed that was Littlefinger, and I don't see any reason to change that view (except I'm also amenable to the idea of it being Winterfell, and un-Gregor). I'm more inclined to believe that the controversy will be Sansa's agreeing to something very underhand that helps LF, and that we the reader will condemn her (again) for.

But I'm hopeful it'll all turn out to be part of Sansa's larger plan to kill LF, take over the Vale, and storm Winterfell like Nymeria!

Also, is that quote not from the ghost at High Heart talking to the Brotherhood? Not Arya's dream.

It doesn't equate exactly to Young Lord Arryn, he's just one possibility. As another poster said it might be LF who's original family sigil is the Titan.

Which also makes me wonder if there might be other candidates. Gregor Clegane? A friend and I have been speculating about Sir Robert Strong--a Zombie version of Gregor controlled by Qyburn's. The person who Sandor Clegane deeply wants to kill himself.

Perhaps at some point, Sir Robert Strong, for whatever reason ends up in the Vale, fights Sandor but it's Sansa who deals the death blow.