Controversial Chapter?

[Ser Tahu]

Having looked through the books, it is indeed a Ser Barristan chapter.

Unless, as a publicity stunt, among all the paperback copies of ADWD there is one Sansa Chapter thrown in five or so books, like Willy Wonka's a Golden ticket. [i am joking, to be clear for those too young or too literal ]

Could you imagine the uproar? ! ;-D Bookstores torn apart, riot police, etc! Lol!

Imagine if the entirety of TWoW was released as randomised sample chapters in the back of the ADwD paperbacks...

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Imagine if the entirety of TWoW was released as randomised sample chapters in the back of the ADwD paperbacks...

Real life equivalent of the KL food riots right there

[Joseph Nobles]

Except it's not everything that Sansa's ever wanted. It's certainly not what she wants now. Littlefinger thinks it is, because he thinks she's still the same girl she was at 11 and that she'd be impressed with a "handsome gallant noble knighted husband". While Sansa actually is fed up being treated as a pawn and engaged/married to various people just because of her claim to Winterfell, and she's not into "handsome gallant noblemen" who happen to be dicks. Right now she doesn't even want to get married at all and enjoys her freedom as a 'bastard' (which now seems sadly over). The first thing she's learned about Harry is that he's a womanizer who's already fathered two bastards, and LF's pitch is that he's handsome and 'gallant', making him sound like what Sansa saw in Joffrey in AGOT. Plus, the fact that his physical description sounds a lot like Marillion is another hint that he's not meant to be the man of Sansa's dreams. It's funny how LF talked to her as if he was convinced it was everything she wanted, not noticing how indifferent and unimpressed she was:

Nor did Petyr choose to explain. Instead, he smiled and said, “I have brought my sweet girl back a gift.”

(...)

Petyr Baelish took her by the hand and drew her down onto his lap. “I have made a marriage contract for you.”

“A marriage . . .” Her throat tightened. She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever. “I do not . . . I cannot marry. Father, I . . .” Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. “I am married,” she whispered. “You know.”

(...)

“Harry the Heir?” Alayne tried to recall what Myranda had told her about him on the mountain. “He was just knighted. And he has a bastard daughter by some common girl.”

“And another on the way by a different wench. Harry can be a beguiling one, no doubt. Soft sandy hair, deep blue eyes, and dimples when he smiles. And very gallant, I am told.” He teased her with a smile. “Bastard-born or no, sweetling, when this match is announced you will be the envy of every highborn maiden in the Vale, and a few from the riverlands and the Reach as well.”

“Why?” Alayne was lost. “Is Ser Harrold . . . how could he be Lady Waynwood’s heir? Doesn’t she have sons of her own blood?”

Thanks for these quotes. I still think Sansa has a choice here, but it's clear that Littlefinger's presentation is no longer the bright, beautiful thing Sansa might have thought it at one time.

But it's always hard to see what Littlefinger is up to, especially when he flat out tells you what he's up to. Maybe this is a test for Sansa - what will she do? Perhaps there is another path Littlefinger is hoping she will take as a worthy student of his? What that might be, I couldn't say.

Wait a minute, why should she marry Harry and kill Robert to make him Lord of the Vale? All she has to do is marry the current Lord, Robert, the trueborn son of Jon Arryn. The same situation would apply - revealed at the wedding as the only known heir to Eddard Stark, the Vale would rally around Robert and Sansa Arryn the same as around Harry and Sansa. They are first cousins, but that's not brother and sister. Sansa's got practice in keeping a husband at arm's length. And either one serves Baelish just fine. If she chooses Harry, Petyr would kill Robert if Sansa wouldn't. If she chooses Robert, it's all the same to Petyr. Harry remains the heir until they have a child and that would be quite some time...

So kill Sweetrobin or marry him. That's the choice Littlefinger has put before her if she sees it.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Thanks for these quotes. I still think Sansa has a choice here, but it's clear that Littlefinger's presentation is no longer the bright, beautiful thing Sansa might have thought it at one time.

But it's always hard to see what Littlefinger is up to, especially when he flat out tells you what he's up to. Maybe this is a test for Sansa - what will she do? Perhaps there is another path Littlefinger is hoping she will take as a worthy student of his? What that might be, I couldn't say.

Wait a minute, why should she marry Harry and kill Robert to make him Lord of the Vale? All she has to do is marry the current Lord, Robert, the trueborn son of Jon Arryn. The same situation would apply - revealed at the wedding as the only known heir to Eddard Stark, the Vale would rally around Robert and Sansa Arryn the same as around Harry and Sansa. They are first cousins, but that's not brother and sister. Sansa's got practice in keeping a husband at arm's length. And either one serves Baelish just fine. If she chooses Harry, Petyr would kill Robert if Sansa wouldn't. If she chooses Robert, it's all the same to Petyr. Harry remains the heir until they have a child and that would be quite some time...

So kill Sweetrobin or marry him. That's the choice Littlefinger has put before her if she sees it.

I think it is because the Vale don't love Robert as (so we are told anyway) they love Harry the Heir. Let's face it, Robert is a weakling, he would make a terrible ruler. The Vale wouldn't rally for him even though he is Jon Arryn's trueborn son.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Child lords are the Bane of Any house as R.Bolton says. I think the Vale will prefer a strong healthy adult male lord. And LF knows it, to continue the Aryn line with SR's sickly seed would also seem foolish if the already proven fertile and sound seeded Harry is an option.

[Fire Eater]

I think it is because the Vale don't love Robert as (so we are told anyway) they love Harry the Heir. Let's face it, Robert is a weakling, he would make a terrible ruler. The Vale wouldn't rally for him even though he is Jon Arryn's trueborn son.

Anymore than Ned's bannermen would rally for his son, Rickon? I would say it is too early to tell if Robert would make a terrible ruler, he has eight years until he comes of age, and a lot can happen in eight years.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Anymore than Ned's bannermen would rally for his son, Rickon? I would say it is too early to tell if Robert would make a terrible ruler, he has eight years until he comes of age, and a lot can happen in eight years.

The difference is that Robert Arryn has already displayed signs if great frailty and weakness; his shaking fits, breast feeding at six, his skinny frame, his completely horrible attitude to those around him (throwing porridge and chamber pots springs to mind) his lack of understanding (the immediate "make him fly!" responses). I dont pin the blame for all of these on him but that is beside the point. The Lord of the Vale needs to be strong, especially in tikes of turmoil. Robert Arryn is not strong, the LD know this, and it would take years of hardbwork and training to make him fit to rule.

THAT is why Sansa marrying him wouldnt have the same effect

[Fire Eater]

THAT is why Sansa marrying him wouldnt have the same effect

I never argued that Sansa marrying him would have any effect.

Robert is frail, but so was Teddy Roosevelt when he was child, and he grew to be a man in his prime. The lords of the Vale are known to be honorable and loyal.

[Gwydden]

Maybe I'm wrong, but if Sansa marries Robert and he dies, Harry Hardyng would become lord of the Vale, not Sansa. Robert is quite fragile, and he could die at any time simply because of natural reasons. It's too risky a bet for Littlefinger, most likely. And yes, the lords of the Vale are more likely to be inspired by Harry Hardyng than by weak and histerical little Robert.

I really hate children.

[oprahnoodlemantra]

Sansa is going to have her first sexual experience and it's going to bring back repressed memories of being raped in Kings Landing.

[Le Cygne]

Harry the Heir will be an unpleasant reminder of Joffrey so I can't believe she'd fall madly in love with him.

Harry sounds like Robert.

Sansa:

"Harry the Heir?" Alayne tried to recall what Myranda had told her about him on the mountain. "He was just knighted. And he has a bastard daughter by some common girl."

"And another on the way by a different wench."

Lyanna:

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature."

[Joseph Nobles]

Lyanna:

Oh, my. For that baby to be Harry's mother, Alys Arren would have had Robert's bastard. That's Jon's sister. I don't know if the timeline would work, but it's an interesting idea - Sansa finally marrying a real descendant of the Baratheons.

[Le Cygne]

I was thinking more along the lines that he's like Robert, so they'd never marry, just like Lyanna never married Robert. :)

[Woman of War]

I like the Idea that Sansa will meet Timmett son of Timmett. And then she will remember what Baelish told her about his line. She may fall in love with him or make use of him, but I could imagine this would be the beauty and beast story.

But for any plot that involves her marrying any heir the marriage to Tyrion has to be ended since, and this is so very basic, Sansa IS already married. She could only enter a marriage as Alayne and stay Alayne forever. Not bad, being loved for herself and not for any claim. Otherwise the moment Tyrion shows up alive this new marriage is automatically invalid, no action needed. Action would be needed to annull the Tyrion/Sansa marriage. But the husband is lost and Sansa is wanted for regicide. I simply can't believe that Baelish is not very much aware of this and Tyrion being lost definitely spoiled his soup for now. There is something more behind his plans we readers fortunately have not detected.

Apart from that, even if Sansa married now and Tyrion were found dead later: if she entered a marriage before her first husband's death this new marriage would be just as invalid and would have to be renewed in order to be valid. Baelish must be aware of this. He is no fool and must know that any marriage of Sansa Stark, now Lannister, would demand a lot of proof manipulation and tampering with the timeline.

What we as readers know is that Tyrion will, if at all, not die before the very last chapters of the books. He may though be reported definitely dead and return as wedding or at least marriage crasher (comedy potential, lawyer jokes etc :) )Not that a lovey dovey Sansa had any reason to be worried but her claim by marriage would bust, she would have happy bastard babies.

So, since this all might be plot turns very much in the future I think the controversial part would be Sansa faliling for Baelish or offing Sweetrobin. She will not kill Baelish in the near book future imo, since at the moment the books lack good villains. Baelish is needed for the story and his secrets have not yet been told.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

The marriage can easily be declared void; it wasnt consumated which means its prettty easy for it to be set aside. Yes LF still needs to sort something about that but i feel he is clever enough to have planned for that

[Amris]

The controversial thing may simply be Sansa accepting Littlefinger's plan and running with it.

Think about it: There are only two books left. So the various plots within plots within plots HAVE to come to an end fairly soon. There is a fair chance we finally are seeing Petyr Baelish's true motivation - due to story length reasons, if nothing else.

He is offering her a shot at Winterfell - and The Vale and The Riverlands on the way. Why not go along with it?

Sure he is a villain. Sure he had more than a litte to so with her father's death. Sure he deserves a slow and painful death.

But revenge is a costly luxury. Too costly in many cases. If one thinks logically about Sansa's situation and Littlefinger's offer - and pushes back all the emotions - isn't his offer worth a serious consideration?

By what we have learned of Sansa she would make a better ruler than many characters in the story. Also she dreams of Winterfell, as her building the snow castle (and Littlefinger helping her with it) clearly shows.

My money is on Sansa. She may surprise us all by doing what we hate - and being successful with it.

[Bloodraven's Lost Eye]

The difference is that Robert Arryn has already displayed signs if great frailty and weakness; his shaking fits, breast feeding at six, his skinny frame, his completely horrible attitude to those around him (throwing porridge and chamber pots springs to mind) his lack of understanding (the immediate "make him fly!" responses). I dont pin the blame for all of these on him but that is beside the point. The Lord of the Vale needs to be strong, especially in tikes of turmoil. Robert Arryn is not strong, the LD know this, and it would take years of hardbwork and training to make him fit to rule.

THAT is why Sansa marrying him wouldnt have the same effect

I agree, I believe Bran is actually 8 years old aswell in the start of the books. He even acts as the Lord of Winterfell, even after beeing crippled... Robert is not a strong leader and he won't be.

I know it's cruel, but Robert is basically already dead, it's just that nobody's told him yet;

[Le Cygne]

He is offering her a shot at Winterfell - and The Vale and The Riverlands on the way. Why not go along with it?

Assuming she wants that (and she really seems to just want to be loved, basically), why does she need Littlefinger to get it?

She wanted to appeal to Bronze Yohn to save her from Littlefinger here, but wasn't sure she could trust him:

He will know me. How could he not? She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection. He never fought for Robb, why should he fight for me? The war is finished and Winterfell is fallen. "Lord Royce," she asked timidly, "will you have a cup of wine, to take the chill off?"

Also, I think Littlefinger wants her for himself. He's playing a game with Sansa, too.

Also she dreams of Winterfell, as her building the snow castle (and Littlefinger helping her with it) clearly shows.

Adding, the scene also shows her throwing snow in his face after that, and smashing a "giant" doll's head onto a spike:

They made a tall tower together, kneeling side by side to roll it smooth, and when they’d raised it Sansa stuck her fingers through the top, grabbed a handful of snow, and flung it full in his face...

"A giant," the boy whispered, weeping. "It wasn’t me, it was a giant hurt the castle. She killed him!"...

She picked up a broken branch and smashed the torn doll’s head down on top of it, then pushed it down atop the shattered gatehouse of her snow castle.

[Fire Eater]

Assuming she wants that (and she really seems to just want to be loved, basically), why does she need Littlefinger to get it?

She wanted to appeal to Bronze Yohn to save her from Littlefinger here, but wasn't sure she could trust him:

Also, I think Littlefinger wants her for himself. He's playing a game with Sansa, too.

Sansa does note that LF's breath smells of wine instead of the usual mint the last time she sees him when he tells her he betrothed her to HtH. LF may be drinking since while he did betroth Sansa to to Harry, he is nonetheless loath to give her up.

Come to think of it LF does share some traits with Viserys in that he is a bit delusional, as shown in him believing he took Cat's maidenhead, and also that he has chip in his shoulder and is always trying to make himself sound superior to others. While Viserys started at the top and fell to the bottom, LF started at the bottom and rose to the top. Viserys was also loath to give Daenerys up whom he lusted for.

[Newstar]

Sansa does note that LF's breath smells of wine instead of the usual mint the last time she sees him when he tells her he betrothed her to HtH. LF may be drinking since while he did betroth Sansa to to Harry, he is nonetheless loath to give her up.

Come to think of it LF does share some traits with Viserys in that he is a bit delusional, as shown in him believing he took Cat's maidenhead, and also that he has chip in his shoulder and is always trying to make himself sound superior to others. While Viserys started at the top and fell to the bottom, LF started at the bottom and rose to the top. Viserys was also loath to give Daenerys up whom he lusted for.

Hmm, interesting. Taking that and running with it, could Littlefinger lose control of Sansa just as Viserys lost control of Daenerys? Could Harry the Heir dispose of Littlefinger the way Drogo disposed of Viserys? Could Sansa find power through her marriage to Harry the Heir just as Daenerys found power through her marriage to Drogo? Food for thought, for sure.