What would Lady Catelyn would have done with Jon

[Shah]

It's what the War of the Five Kings is all about. [...] Benjen was supposed to leave the NW to wed Cat after Ned was killed, but he was too fearful of her so he deserted the watch instead of go forth with his duty. [...] She went ahead and kidnapped the Imp and then Jaime to start the war so that she need not wed Jon. Stannis [...] ready to accept their duty and wed Cersei after their brother's untimely death.

You're kidding right? I have a hard time reading sarcasm in posts.

...Reread it, definitely sarcasm. :3

[Dany Girl]

Do you think maybe Cat knows Jon is R+L's child, and that's why she hates him (since he is a Targ)

Not even a little chance. We're in her head as she reflects on Ned ' affair/John's mother. If she even remotely suspected anything we'd know.

While knowing his true parents might have made her fear what he means to her family, I don't think she'd hate a child because of it. I think she'd try to cover the truth just as Ned did. Jon would not be the same threat to her children he currently is, son of a daughter of Rickard would never come before son of a son of Rickard.

[James Arryn]

So, wait. Cersei and Stannis?

Ok, this is officially my first ship. Get 'er done, George. The two of them, bring Viserys back to life and Edd for colour, and you have 99.45% whine content.

I am hard done by!

No, I am hard done by!

Oh, yeah, we'll if I were a man I would rule the world!

I AM a man and they're not letting me rule the world!

And on and on.

[Minsc]

So, wait. Cersei and Stannis?

Ok, this is officially my first ship. Get 'er done, George. The two of them, bring Viserys back to life and Edd for colour, and you have 99.45% whine content.

I still say Stannis and Lysa are better in how both were always overshadowed by their older sibling and never really shut up about said sibling when they engage in their rants.

(Honestly, I think it would have been interesting AU if Hoster had arranged Lysa to marry Stannis rather then Jon Arryn. In how, Stannis is closer to her age thus that might have kept her more content and happy)

[LordStoneheart]

Denys

From the books and the wiki genealogical trees.

We KNOW that the Vale heir married a junior Royce. We know that the daughters married a Waynwood, a Courbery and then we do not know for sure.

However NOTE WELL that a girl named Perrara Royce, who would have been roughly the right age to be Rickard,s cousin married WALDER FREY.

Frankly the possibility of Freys inheriting Winterfell makes the whole Red Wedding much more believable. Removing Robb gave Walder Frey potentially a MAJOR leap up for his heirs.

I will not note well because this is a bigger stretch than a Tywin is Alive theory. Catelyn never mentions a Frey inheriting WF nor does she as you admit know of some Royce daughter (daughter, no less, in a society of primogeniture) who isn't clearly associated with the main branch of Royce, married a Frey. The suggestion is ludicrous and relies on a massive amount of what ifs.

Catelyn's suggestion of the Royce heir is admittedly part of her personal disdain for Eddard's supposed bastard, but its also not unrealistic for her to think so in a lawful sense. She brings up Aegon the Unworthy and the trouble his bastards cause the realm when he legalized his bastards. Also, Robb declaring him as an heir wouldn't magically break the NW vow; its just not that simple and would not have helped Jon's status towards the end of aSoS with Thorne and Slynt. just saying.

[Samsaptakas]

I sometime wish that Cat should have been regularly abusive toward Jon; it would have at least made his character somewhat interesting.

[Addam of Hull]

I sometime wish that Cat should have been regularly abusive toward Jon; it would have at least made his character somewhat interesting.

Lucky for us all, Martin chose to make him interesting without including abuse in his backstory.

[Sansa_Stark]

I sometime wish that Cat should have been regularly abusive toward Jon; it would have at least made his character somewhat interesting.

It would have made Cat's character somewhat interesting.

[Addam of Hull]

It would have made Cat's character somewhat interesting.

Again, lucky for us all, Martin chose to make her interesting without making her abusive. Whew!

[Sansa_Stark]

Again, lucky for us all, Martin chose to make her interesting without making her abusive. Whew!

For some of you people, yes.

Not for us all....

[Addam of Hull]

For some of you people, yes.

Not for us all....

If you need her to be abusive to find her interesting, then I think the fault is with you rather than the character or Martin.

[Sansa_Stark]

If you need her to be abusive to find her interesting, then I think the fault is with you rather than the character or Martin.

I actually do have a lot of issues so yes I think its definitely my fault but still the point is is that Catelyn being interesting is subjective.

[David Selig]

Denys

From the books and the wiki genealogical trees.

We KNOW that the Vale heir married a junior Royce. We know that the daughters married a Waynwood, a Courbery and then we do not know for sure.

However NOTE WELL that a girl named Perrara Royce, who would have been roughly the right age to be Rickard,s cousin married WALDER FREY.

"Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings."

So Perra Royce has no Stark blood.

[Addam of Hull]

I actually do have a lot of issues so yes I think its definitely my fault but still the point is is that Catelyn being interesting is subjective.

Which is why making any statement about how interesting a character is or how to make one more interesting is somewhat pointless. It is one of the lowest forms of criticism -- whether stated explicitly or implied -- someone can level at a character.

[Sansa_Stark]

"Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings."

So Perra Royce has no Stark blood.

How do you know that none of those Vale lordlings weren't minor branch Royces who gave birth to Perra?

If that is possible.

I mean, do we even know how old Rickard Stark was?

Or how old his father and his siblings were?

[Sansa_Stark]

Which is why making any statement about how interesting a character is or how to make one more interesting is somewhat pointless. It is one of the lowest forms of criticism -- whether stated explicitly or implied -- someone can level at a character.

And saying she is interesting is the lowest form of praise by that regard.

Why do you even care?

I just stated my opinion and now we got into this debate.

[David Selig]

How do you know that none of those Vale lordlings weren't minor branch Royces who gave birth to Perra?

If that is possible.

I mean, do we even know how old Rickard Stark was?

Or how old his father and his siblings were?

I didn't think of that, but seems extremely unlikely due to the timeline. Perra Royce already had a son in 234 AL. Brandon Stark, who would be her second cousin if the above is true, was born in 261 AL.

[Sansa_Stark]

I'll admit its a stretch, but still.

And wouldn't hypothetically, Perra be Brandon's aunt, not his son, with Perra being Rickard's cousin?

I mean, regardless of things, a lot of times women give birth young in this series and Walder was around 27 when he had his first son.

So even if Brandon was born in 261, Rickard could have been older when he had him while Perra younger(like a teenager).

[Ludd]

An age gap of 27-35 years amongst cousins in not impossible or even strange,

If Edywle's sister was say 8 years older than he was (perhaps the Brandon who died came between them), and then she married at 16 while Edwyle married at 26, you can quite easily have an 18 year gap without any stretches outside normal parameters.

Additionally we have no idea how old Edywle was when Ricakard was born. The fact that he was an only child suggests an older father and even a second marriage, although it is by no means conclusive. However when GoT started wer have

Robb and Jon 15

Ned 35, Brandon 37

if Rickard Married at 25 we can assume that when GoT started would have been about 63

Edwyle then would be somewhere in the age range 85-95 and his sister (if older about 90 -100)

The daughters of Edwyle's sister (ie the three Royce girls) would be in the age range 65-85. We know that Perra Royce had her first son in 2034, so she was probably born in 2017/18. This makes her about 80 when the GoT starts. This is exactly the RIGHT age group to be the Stark granddaughter.

So in reality we have a Royce girl marrying a Frey. How many other Royce girls of a similar age were there?

Now we know that Freys did not get good marriages often (Genna Lannister the exception), so Perra Royce would not be of the main house but likely to be from the cadet Royce branch.

Put it this way. The evidence for one of the Stark/Royce girls being Perra Frey is better than any other evidence available,

[David Selig]

An age gap of 27-35 years amongst cousins in not impossible or even strange,

Not impossible, but quite unlikely.

We know that Perra Royce had her first son in 2034, so she was probably born in 2017/18. This makes her about 80 when the GoT starts. This is exactly the RIGHT age group to be the Stark granddaughter.

Only if you make a whole bunch of assumptions, like you did.

It's much more likely that the Stark granddaughter would be a lot younger than this.

And really, how likely is it that:

1) One of the daughters of Edwyle's sister and the Royce guy married into the Royce family, not in any of the many other noble Vale families.

2) Her daughter married Walder Frey and the ages match.

3) This never comes up. You'd think that when Robb and Cat were dealing with the Freys, especially once Bran and Rickon supposedly died, it would've been mentioned that Stevron's line are pretty high in the line of succession for the North. But it doesn't come up at all.

The evidence for one of the Stark/Royce girls being Perra Frey is better than any other evidence available,

No, it's not. At all. It requires a whole bunch of unlikely assumptions and contrivances.