Emeralds

[Lyse Stark]

Not embracing, but foreshadowing. "no matter how many swords they give me." is a clear cut foreshadowing of the IT if there ever was one. Note, he's not actually aware that he's talking about the IT there. That's something only the audience realizes. Which is why it is foreshadowing and not embracing.

There's more irony in him ruling as a Stark, too. Remember, he's actually been the Targaryen king his entire life, yet he's never profited from it. So it makes ironic sense that, in order to rule, he will have to be a Stark.

I do like the idea of "Ice and Fire" being his House words though. I actually think his sigil will be a blue rose, since he'd likely be a Stark of King's Landing, or wherever the capitol is at that point. Maybe Harrenhal, as butterbumps! theorized a while back.

But again I ask, where is the story arc for the Starks if they just end up as Warden's of the North again?

But I suggest you take my idea of combining both Stark and Targaryen to make Stargaryen as a real possiblity, because it combines the best of both of Fire Eater and your theories in one cohesive storyline.

[J. Stargaryen]

But I suggest you take my idea of combining both Stark and Targaryen to make Stargaryen as a real possiblity, because it combines the best of both of Fire Eater and your theories in one cohesive storyline.

Thanks, but this isn't a negotiation.

[Lyse Stark]

And I believe that Jon's arc is about balancing two conflicting forces. Ice preserves, while fire consumes, so in that aspect he may realize that some traditions cannot be kept, while others are in danger of dying out.

The traditions that Jon is likely to abolish include the Targaryen practice of marrying brother to sister, as it means the Targaryen wasted a lot of opportunities to build some valuable marriage alliance among the Noble Houses. And historically, houses that married brother to sister had a higher rate of deformity and genetic disorders, as well as a huge drop in fertility. Daenery is infertile because of Mirri Daz Durr's action, but it is also possible that the centuries of inbreeding also contribute a genetic factor to her problem?

[Lyse Stark]

Thanks, but this isn't a negotiation.

Your stand on that argument may possibly turn to be wrong by the time TWoW comes out, as I think that it is a valid possiblity that GRRM had different plans for the Stark arc, and your arguments will be rendered useless. I just think he will have at 2 possible paths for Jon and then as a twist, Jon will choose a third path.

ETA: It's like Mass Effect's ending: Shepard has two opinions, but then a third option appears. He can either pick Control or Destroy, but then Synthesis appears. He takes it and everything changes along that line as a result.

I think Jon's endgame will have a similar dilemma, but a third option comes out of the blue, and he takes it.

[J. Stargaryen]

And I believe that Jon's arc is about balancing two conflicting forces. Ice preserves, while fire consumes, so in that aspect he may realize that some traditions cannot be kept, while others are in danger of dying out.

The traditions that Jon is likely to abolish include the Targaryen practice of marrying brother to sister, as it means the Targaryen wasted a lot of opportunities to build some valuable marriage alliance among the Noble Houses. And historically, houses that married brother to sister had a higher rate of deformity and genetic disorders, as well as a huge drop in fertility. Daenery is infertile because of Mirri Daz Durr's action, but it is also possible that the centuries of inbreeding also contribute a genetic factor to her problem?

I don't think Dany is infertile, as per her final Dance chapter.

Your stand on that argument may possibly turn to be wrong by the time TWoW comes out, as I think that it is a valid possiblity that GRRM had different plans for the Stark arc, and your arguments will be rendered useless. I just think he will have at 2 possible paths for Jon and then as a twist, Jon will choose a third path.

We're all making assumptions here.

ETA:

ETA: It's like Mass Effect's ending: Shepard has two opinions, but then a third option appears. He can either pick Control or Destroy, but then Synthesis appears. He takes it and everything changes along that line as a result.

I think Jon's endgame will have a similar dilemma, but a third option comes out of the blue, and he takes it.

Hopefully GRRM doesn't have to rewrite the ending of ASoIaF due to massive fan outcry. :)

[Lyse Stark]

We're all making assumptions here.

I noticed that Jon Snow is much like Shepard in that regard, as I mentioned in a previous post. And I am using a Mass effect analogy as a possiblity for Jon Snow's endgame.

[Fire Eater]

A straw man.

I think the beauty of Jon ruling as a Stark is that he's the true heir to the IT and blood of the dragon, – AND – it would provide a satisfying conclusion to the arc of House Stark. It's not really much of an arc if they just end up as Warden's of the North, since that's where they were when the story began.

I wasn't saying "pure shock factor" was your explanation. My apologies if I gave that impression.

Jon didn't start the story sitting on the IT. The Starks would regain the North, and Arya may become Lady of SE by marrying legitimized Gendry Baratheon, and Sansa may get her own seat of what was once Harrenhal.

We must remember Jon didn't know Ned wasn't his real father when he made that statement, and another way of looking at it may be "you have my sword" when lords pledge their swords to their kings. It was a way of saying he would never forget Ned even when he became a king. When I said "second father", I meant as in while Jon acknowledges Rhaegar as his biological father, he thinks of Ned as his primary father figure.

Jon may have wanted to become a Stark, but that was when he was a boy. Jon will become a man, and come to accept that while he may never become a Stark, he will always have be Stark somewhere inside.

You also didn't even comment on my ruby find. :crying:

ETA: It's like Mass Effect's ending: Shepard has two opinions, but then a third option appears. He can either pick Control or Destroy, but then Synthesis appears. He takes it and everything changes along that line as a result.

I think Jon's endgame will have a similar dilemma, but a third option comes out of the blue, and he takes it.

I like to think of Luke Skywalker. Luke was presented with two choices according to Obi-wan: kill Vader for the light side or don't kill Vader and turn to the dark side. I think Jon will be presented a choice when the shit hits the fan in the North. The Wall has fallen, and Dany is coming North to WF to kill the Northmen's declared KitN, Rickon. Jon wants to go to WF to help Rickon, but the situation at what's left of the Wall requires his attention with the onslaught of the Others and wights. Jon will appear to be given two choices: let Rickon die or abandon everyone to die at the Wall. Jon learned that he has to put the NW and the realm first before kin, but he hates the decision nonetheless.

Luke manages to find a third solution between the two choices, don't kill Vader and redeem him instead, turning him to the light side. I think Jon will manage to find a make a third option that solves both problems. He decides to go to WF, and reveal R+L=J to Dany. Being the rightful Targaryen heir he would be able to command her to back off Rickon, and command her to bring her dragons and her forces to the Wall to stop the Others.

[J. Stargaryen]

I wasn't saying "pure shock factor" was your explanation. My apologies if I gave that impression.

What I meant was that, it seems to me like you're saying that if Jon doesn't end up ruling as a Targaryen, then R+L=J serves no purpose save for shock factor. So, it seems to me like you're setting up a straw man to justify your argument; e.g., He has to be Jon Targaryen or there's no point. I don't think Jon has to be king of anything for R+L=J to be meaningful.

I see tons of potential irony with or without a crown; e.g., The King Who Never Was.

Jon didn't start the story sitting on the IT. The Starks would regain the North, and Arya may become Lady of SE by marrying legitimized Gendry Baratheon, and Sansa may get her own seat of what was once Harrenhal.

We must remember Jon didn't know Ned wasn't his real father when he made that statement, and another way of looking at it may be "you have my sword" when lords pledge their swords to their kings. It was a way of saying he would never forget Ned even when he became a king. When I said "second father", I meant as in while Jon acknowledges Rhaegar as his biological father, he thinks of Ned as his primary father figure.

Jon may have wanted to become a Stark, but that was when he was a boy. Jon will become a man, and come to accept that while he may never become a Stark, he will always have be Stark somewhere inside.

Okay, but you'll recall that you argued Jon would take the Targaryen name because Rhaegar was his father. My reply was to show that there was pretty strong foreshadowing that, when the time comes, Jon will recognize Ned as his father, at least for the purposes of choosing which House to represent on the IT.

You also didn't even comment on my ruby find. :crying:

I thought you were just referencing an earlier discussion, from here, which dates back even further, to here.

[Alia of the knife]

What I meant was that, it seems to me like you're saying that if Jon doesn't end up ruling as a Targaryen, then R+L=J serves no purpose save for shock factor. So, it seems to me like you're setting up a straw man to justify your argument; e.g., He has to be Jon Targaryen or there's no point. I don't think Jon has to be king of anything for R+L=J to be meaningful.

I see tons of potential irony with or without a crown; e.g., The King Who Never Was.

Okay, but you'll recall that you argued Jon would take the Targaryen name because Rhaegar was his father. My reply was to show that there was pretty strong foreshadowing that, when the time comes, Jon will recognize Ned as his father, at least for the purposes of choosing which House to represent on the IT.

I thought you were just referencing an earlier discussion, from here, which dates back even further, to here.

Thought you might be interested in some information from "The Boleyn Files" regarding Elizabeth of York and Henry VII, whom they refer to as the "Winter King."

http://www.theanneboleynfiles.com/henry-vii-marries-elizabeth-of-york/

It's more of a "snapshot" of the people and events of the time.

[J. Stargaryen]

Thought you might be interested in some information from "The Boleyn Files" regarding Elizabeth of York and Henry VII, whom they refer to as the "Winter King."

http://www.theanneboleynfiles.com/henry-vii-marries-elizabeth-of-york/

It's more of a "snapshot" of the people and events of the time.

Thanks. That's interesting. Why was he called the Winter King?

[Alia of the knife]

Thanks. That's interesting. Why was he called the Winter King?

I think it has to do with both his austere, sometimes ruthless personality and the environment in which he came to the throne, hung on to it, and ruled it with an iron fist.

BUT, there is a lot to suggest that he had good reason to rule that way. His father-in-law, Edward spent lavishly and put the kingdom at financial risk, so he had to take extreme measures to put it back into order.

[Fire Eater]

What I meant was that, it seems to me like you're saying that if Jon doesn't end up ruling as a Targaryen, then R+L=J serves no purpose save for shock factor. So, it seems to me like you're setting up a straw man to justify your argument; e.g., He has to be Jon Targaryen or there's no point. I don't think Jon has to be king of anything for R+L=J to be meaningful.

I see tons of potential irony with or without a crown; e.g., The King Who Never Was.

I was referring to "even ruling at all." I don't see the reason for all the king hints if Jon isn't going to be king in the end, or the King Arthur references. Then there are all the dragon hints that point to Jon, and dragons are the sigil of House Targaryen. I don't see Jon changing the royal sigil to the direwolf of House Stark, or the reason why he has all the dragon clues if he isn't going to be a Targaryen in the end. As GRRM said:

Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar.

Besides, I think Dany is more likely to be the Queen Who Never Was.

Okay, but you'll recall that you argued Jon would take the Targaryen name because Rhaegar was his father. My reply was to show that there was pretty strong foreshadowing that, when the time comes, Jon will recognize Ned as his father, at least for the purposes of choosing which House to represent on the IT.

Jon thinking of Ned as his father doesn't necessarily mean that he is going to take the name Stark, but the quote served as foreshadowing for him as king, and that he would never forget Ned, the man who had been a father to him.

[Lyse Stark]

Besides, I think Dany is more likely to be the Queen Who Never Was.

Or the Second Queen who Never Was.

[north of the wall]

Wow this is so well thought out. however i would argue that the green and emeralds are not just for userpers or Baratheons. instead id read into the colour itself. green has historically been used to convey greed and decay (especially by F. Scott Fitzgereald in the Great Gatsby) so that could be why Stannis and Robert aren't seen with the emeralds and why Cersei and other Lannisters are.

Similarly red is passion, anger and blood which are all qualities seen in most Targ's.

And blue can represnt balance for Jon

[Lyse Stark]

Wow this is so well thought out. however i would argue that the green and emeralds are not just for userpers or Baratheons. instead id read into the colour itself. green has historically been used to convey greed and decay (especially by F. Scott Fitzgereald in the Great Gatsby) so that could be why Stannis and Robert aren't seen with the emeralds and why Cersei and other Lannisters are.

Similarly red is passion, anger and blood which are all qualities seen in most Targ's.

And blue can represnt balance for Jon

And with the Lannister's fates being sealed by the emerald symbolism, I believe that their greed and powerlust will end up being their downfall, and what the Lannister currently has, at the end, will go to other Houses that doesn't care about power but protecting the people.

[J. Stargaryen]

I was referring to "even ruling at all." I don't see the reason for all the king hints if Jon isn't going to be king in the end, or the King Arthur references. Then there are all the dragon hints that point to Jon, and dragons are the sigil of House Targaryen. I don't see Jon changing the royal sigil to the direwolf of House Stark, or the reason why he has all the dragon clues if he isn't going to be a Targaryen in the end. As GRRM said:

Okay, fair enough about "even ruling at all," but I don't agree that it's necessary, tbh.

The reason for all of the "king hints" if Jon doesn't end up as king, is that he was born as one and has been, in truth, the rightful king his entire life.

As for the dragon hints, they are in the text because Jon is a dragon, maybe the dragon. It's a hint to his true parentage. In contrast, we don't need "wolf hints" because the cover story already states that he has Stark blood.

I also don't believe that Jon will change the royal sigil to the grey Stark direwolf, on a field of ice white. I think it will be a blue rose. :)

But let's not forget that the royal sigil is no longer a three-headed dragon, red on black. Instead, it's the crowned stag of House Baratheon, black on gold, and the lion of Lannister, gold on crimson, combatant.

Besides, I think Dany is more likely to be the Queen Who Never Was.

Possible, but I was just shooting out an example with TKWNW.

Jon thinking of Ned as his father doesn't necessarily mean that he is going to take the name Stark, but the quote served as foreshadowing for him as king, and that he would never forget Ned, the man who had been a father to him.

Sure, it doesn't necessarily mean that he'll take the name Stark, but it's a pretty compelling piece of foreshadowing. At least it is to me. You can interpret it as you like, but you have to work around the fact that Jon flat out states that Ned is his father, and he won't forget that no matter how many swords (the IT) they offer him. And you're the one who said he'll take his father's name if/when he sits the IT, so...

Wow this is so well thought out. however i would argue that the green and emeralds are not just for userpers or Baratheons. instead id read into the colour itself. green has historically been used to convey greed and decay (especially by F. Scott Fitzgereald in the Great Gatsby) so that could be why Stannis and Robert aren't seen with the emeralds and why Cersei and other Lannisters are.

Similarly red is passion, anger and blood which are all qualities seen in most Targ's.

And blue can represnt balance for Jon

Thanks. Good point about the color green, too.

[Fire Eater]

Okay, fair enough about "even ruling at all," but I don't agree that it's necessary, tbh.

The reason for all of the "king hints" if Jon doesn't end up as king, is that he was born as one and has been, in truth, the rightful king his entire life.

But he has never ruled as king. What good is aroyal heritage if he doesn't do anything with it?

I also don't believe that Jon will change the royal sigil to the grey Stark direwolf, on a field of ice white. I think it will be a blue rose. :)

A dragon is a cooler sigil than a rose, and avoids confusion when talking about either the Targaryens or Tyrells.

And you're the one who said he'll take his father's name if/when he sits the IT, so...

His biological father's name, and if he is going to reveal R+L=J to Dany, he is not going to introduce himself as Stark or Snow.

Thanks. Good point about the color green, too.

Not to mention that the color green, as Apple mentioned, seems to be negative towards Dany such as the GG, the slippers with green pearls hurting her feet, and in the Dance of Dragons, Aegon's party was called the "greens", and so fAegon's party of the greens will oppose Dany. Green is anti-Targaryen.

[J. Stargaryen]

But he has never ruled as king. What good is aroyal heritage if he doesn't do anything with it?

Trope subversion. Sacrifice. Irony. Also, Jon doesn't have to rule, especially permanently, to make use of his birthright.

A dragon is a cooler sigil than a rose, and avoids confusion when talking about either the Targaryens or Tyrells.

Henry Tudor had Welsh ancestry through his father, so on occasion he would fly the red dragon of Wales. Still, his heraldic emblem was the Tudor Rose, which can be attributed to his mother's Lancaster claim. Make of that what you will.

His biological father's name, and if he is going to reveal R+L=J to Dany, he is not going to introduce himself as Stark or Snow.

Even if he tells Dany who he is, which I do suspect will happen, that doesn't mean he will rule as a Targaryen. Regardless of what Jon chooses to call himself, he's still the superior claimant in the Targaryen succession.

Not to mention that the color green, as Apple mentioned, seems to be negative towards Dany such as the GG, the slippers with green pearls hurting her feet, and in the Dance of Dragons, Aegon's party was called the "greens", and so fAegon's party of the greens will oppose Dany. Green is anti-Targaryen.

Yep, GRRM practically beat us over the head with the black and green stuff, in retrospect.

[Lyse Stark]

And the saying "green with envy" can also connect with usurpation in that when people envy somebody, it usually mean that that person has something that the other doesn't and desires to deprive that person of it. But as we know, envy can has tragic consequences. Robert Baratheon envied Rhaegar because he had Lyanna. But he wound up with Cersei. And now Cersei's jealously and paranoia is currently leading her down a path that will end up being her death, and bringing down House Lannister along with her.

[J. Stargaryen]

And the saying "green with envy" can also connect with usurpation in that when people envy somebody, it usually mean that that person has something that the other doesn't and desires to deprive that person of it. But as we know, envy can has tragic consequences. Robert Baratheon envied Rhaegar because he had Lyanna. But he wound up with Cersei. And now Cersei's jealously and paranoia is currently leading her down a path that will end up being her death, and bringing down House Lannister along with her.

Exactly, this is a good point. "Green with envy" is certainly in line with usurpation.

---

I've been trying to understand why exactly GRRM chose black and green as the two opposing colors that seemingly represent inter-dynastic conflict over the IT. One idea that came to mind is that the IT was forged by the fire of Balerion the Black Dread, who breathed black flame. So, in a sense, the kingdoms of Westeros were united by the color black.

On the other hand, we have wildfire which is green. And wildfire is essentially imitation dragon fire. That is, it's more potent than regular fire, but it's not the genuine item.

I wonder if that isn't maybe what the black and green dichotomy is supposed to represent. Maybe that is why the side with the true claim is always represented by the black, and the side with the lesser, or usurping, claim is always represented by the green.

Another possibly interesting ramification here is that, having been forged in Balerion's super-hot dragon fire, the IT might survive a potential wildfire disaster, even if the rest of KL does not.