could george martin change the rhaegar-jon snow story?

[White Ravens]

If the book comes out and R + L does not equal J, we can assume that the fans were wrong. I think the fans are right but there is only one way to find out and that is wait. Hopefully we don't have to wait for A Promise of Spring.

[Pecan]

I don't think that who ends up on the Iron Throne at the end is the central storyline or point of the series. It might be Jon or it might not be. Maybe Jon saves the world, but dies a hero's death and they write songs about him. Or, maybe he ends up as King, has nine mistresses like Aegon the Unworthy, gets fat, and falls off his horse one day and breaks his neck.

But, whatever happens, the idea that GRRM would change it up just to fuck with the fans doesn't make sense. Arguably, the entire series revolves around Jon and the mystery of his parentage and this hero's journey he's on that's taken him from adolescent, resentful Bastard of Winterfell to North of the Wall to Lord Commander and now to being stabbed by his own men. All of that is for a purpose, and it obviously has something to do with what most believe is a pending invasion by the Others and possibly a second Long Night. GRRM isn't going to change that just because some of the more engaged fans have figured out R+L=J.

[WeaselPie]

it might be that george martin originally planned to go with this theory but judging by the way people are convinced that jon snow is a targareyn he might just change the story to shock the readers.

further more through out the books some hints are given at this, so that also makes up more ground for a huge surprise

if he is rhaegar and lyanna's son, then he's the true heir to the iron throne, even above dany.

If Ned stark knew this then why did he sent jon off to the night's watch. I mean that's just a waste of a person. He will die childless and without any real meaning worthy of a prince

No, I don't think GRRM will change his story based on fan predictions.

However, since R+L=J is not canon, he just might surprise us anyway :)

[Karmarni]

I don't think that who ends up on the Iron Throne at the end is the central storyline or point of the series.

But, whatever happens, the idea that GRRM would change it up just to fuck with the fans doesn't make sense. Arguably, the entire series revolves around Jon and the mystery of his parentage and this hero's journey he's on that's taken him from adolescent, resentful Bastard of Winterfell to North of the Wall to Lord Commander and now to being stabbed by his own men. All of that is for a purpose, and it obviously has something to do with what most believe is a pending invasion by the Others and possibly a second Long Night. GRRM isn't going to change that just because some of the more engaged fans have figured out R+L=J.

Agreed. I also tend to think Jon won't be a King. His Targaryen father is what matters; he is blood of their blood and is a Stark. I think that the NW has been doomed from the start. And that Jon at the end of ADWD was ready to go to Winterfell to save Arya, NW be damned.

[Dead Wolf]

Of course he can. It's his story, he doesn't have to have Jon survive at all

[Lady of Dragonstone]

I don't think he will.

Jon has become Lord Snow, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, much the same way that Sansa has become Alayne Stone and Arya has become No One and Bran is becoming the Last Greenseer. These identities are part of who they are, but they are also less than the whole of who these characters are. Taking on these roles and identities has been crucial to their growth, but they can't remain like that forever. It doesn't suit the story. Eventually, the Starks need to reconverge. Not as Alayne Stone or Lord Snow or No One, but as Sansa Stark and Jon (whatever) and Arya Stark and Rickon Stark and Bran Stark. I think Jon has to shed his identity as a crow and lord commander to achieve whatever greater purpose Martin has for him in the story.

There's a big difference between Jon Snow and the other Starks, though. Jon choose his lot in the NW, freely and willingly. Before war split the Stark family apart. He's not a victim of circumstance. How do you know that his greater purpose is not precisely to be the Lord Commander of the NW? Is there some rule that says he can't be the superhero of the story and be the commander of the NW? I'd rate a permanent military command of the organization tasked with protecting The Realms of Man as a "greater purpose".

I agree with the first post I have quoted. The Wolfswood has really summed it up best. I think it is true that all the Stark kids are creating or being pushed into these other identities or selves. The roles that each Stark child assumes throughout time force them to expand themselves, to explore who they are, what their limits are. But Wolfswood is correct that these roles do not define the person, and the person can and will grow out of these roles.

In response to the second post I quoted, Jon did choose to join the NW, but he did not choose to become LC, nor did he choose to be marked as not only a bastard but a traitor's bastard, and he did not choose to have to partake in a war which would ordinarily not be in the interest of anyone in the NW. All three of the situations do, in a way, make Jon a "victim of circumstance" as you put it. Being the LC of the NW is a job that is highly noteworthy, and I don't think anyone is attacking or mocking the post of LC at all, nor saying that it is of unimportance.

If Jon is the person who will be the leader of the supposed LN2.0, you may want to consider the implications, as I see them, of him being LC. If Jon is still LC, he may be inhibited in fighting the Others due to his vows. Somehow, someway, but still just so. I am of the opinion that yes, Jon broke a vow or two by helping Stannis as much as he did, although I also uphold that he really didn't have much of a choice. Whether or not he used his own personal motives as a driving factor, Jon does justify to himself several times to ADWD that by him treating with Stannis, he is helping the NW, as well as getting ready for the battle of the Others.

By breaking off his vows, Jon no longer has to play it safe and he can actually come to aid for the wildlings and the people of the North. Honestly, Jon didn't want to be LC, but he is powerfully minded both militarily and politically, and I think he is starting to realize that hey, he's good at this game. Overall, I honestly think Jon would choose to not be LC, or even a part of the NW anymore, if it meant he could save more people and do more for Westeros. This is just my opinion, but Jon, to me, is not just a black brother. He is just one of those people, who has to save people. He wants to do the right thing, and he wants to see the pain and horrors the Northerners (his family, friends, and neighbors, btw) have endured to ended.

Tying it all into the OP now: I don't think GRRM would change the story to suit the fans in any way. Jon is such a huge character, and the NW and Jon are so embedded into the main story arc, that I'm not sure he could; that would be a huge facet of the story to rethink, rework, redraft. Also, it is GRRM's story and he is pretty adamant that he does not read fan theories or support fanfiction in any way. I don't think he would change his beloved works just because a grouping of fans online "guessed" the main theory. I am a subscriber of RL=J but I don't think it is set in stone by any means. It is just a theory.

I don't think Jon's parentage will be as important as we think it is. We've survived five books without knowing who his parents are, and Jon's gone 18 years without knowing.

[TheWizard]

I would guess maybe 5% of the readers not on this forum figured it out. not enough to warrant a change even if he did want to

[Ygrain]

By breaking off his vows, Jon no longer has to play it safe and he can actually come to aid for the wildlings and the people of the North. Honestly, Jon didn't want to be LC, but he is powerfully minded both militarily and politically, and I think he is starting to realize that hey, he's good at this game. Overall, I honestly think Jon would choose to not be LC, or even a part of the NW anymore, if it meant he could save more people and do more for Westeros. This is just my opinion, but Jon, to me, is not just a black brother. He is just one of those people, who has to save people. He wants to do the right thing, and he wants to see the pain and horrors the Northerners (his family, friends, and neighbors, btw) have endured to ended.

This. We have already been shown how blind adherence to principles can cause great harm; I find it plausible that Jon might be forced to overcome the bonds of honour and do whatever it takes to save Westeros, no matter the cost to himself.

I don't think GRRM would change the story to suit the fans in any way. Jon is such a huge character, and the NW and Jon are so embedded into the main story arc, that I'm not sure he could; that would be a huge facet of the story to rethink, rework, redraft.

I would guess maybe 5% of the readers not on this forum figured it out. not enough to warrant a change even if he did want to

He might change the outcome, but only at the cost of sacrificing the link to the many foreshadowings that he has planted. Most readers probably wouldn't notice as he probably would be able to redirect some of the more obvious ones; however, I don't think that he would be able to put up with such gaps in the fabric of his own story.

[Fat Mac]

Martin could do whatever he wants with his story. He could make Jon the son of Jorah and Cersei if he wanted to (obviously it wouldn't make a lick of sense and would be bad writing). But, he's not going to change based on fan predictions. Fans shouldn't be a factor in how he writes his story.

[Lady of Dragonstone]

This. We have already been shown how blind adherence to principles can cause great harm; I find it plausible that Jon might be forced to overcome the bonds of honour and do whatever it takes to save Westeros, no matter the cost to himself.

He might change the outcome, but only at the cost of sacrificing the link to the many foreshadowings that he has planted. Most readers probably wouldn't notice as he probably would be able to redirect some of the more obvious ones; however, I don't think that he would be able to put up with such gaps in the fabric of his own story.

I agree, Ygrain. And yes, Jon would be sacrificing his credibility and honor if the left the NW to help "save" Westeros, but I think that Jon is finding out that he actually has the capability to have a huge impact on the outcome of not only the war amongst the nobles, but also impact on the survival of the wildlings and the defeat of the Others. I don't think he could ever turn down the opportunity to help someone. It's just another facet of "Stark honor."

And I think the same of Martin as well. For someone who takes years spinning these crazily intricate webs of story, it would not be satisfactory to him to butcher what he's already created in his mind.

[Steve Stark]

The only way, THE ONLY way I can see him being released from his service as a member of the Night's Watch is by order of a King.

And I do not see that happening any day soon with the way things are looking at court.

This is all of course, assuming that theory is even true, which is just all sorts of Jon-wanking pointlesness to me.

The Night's Watch Oath says: It shall not end until my death.

Well, he "died" didn't he? Free from obligations, especially if backed by a king.

Or maybe after being a hero and fighting the walkers and saving the 7 kingdoms there will be no need for the NW, or he will be freed from his oath?

"Thanks Jon. No need to give two lives up to the Night's Watch. One is enough. You done good. Be free...my King"

How convenient. ha!

[David Selig]

It also says "for this night and all nights to come". So no get out of jail free card for him,

[Nictarion]

It also says "for this night and all nights to come". So no get out of jail free card for him,

People like to exclude that part.

[The Dornishman's Widow]

People like to exclude that part.

Yeah, people are very eager to think of excuses to get Jon out of the Night's Watch. But at the end of the day, there's no easy solution for that except desertion, and it's debatable how easy that one is.

Or in the words of GRRM: "No loopholes. Once you say the words, you're in." (SSM, though to be fair not one explicitly about getting out of your vows by being clinically dead for a few minutes but one about Jon being potentially too young to consent to entering the NW.)

[Ygrain]

It also says "for this night and all nights to come". So no get out of jail free card for him,

Yeah, people are very eager to think of excuses to get Jon out of the Night's Watch. But at the end of the day, there's no easy solution for that except desertion, and it's debatable how easy that one is.

Or in the words of GRRM: "No loopholes. Once you say the words, you're in." (SSM, though to be fair not one explicitly about getting out of your vows by being clinically dead for a few minutes but one about Jon being potentially too young to consent to entering the NW.)

Well... if after LN 2.0 seasons get to normal and no more long nights will come, then the oath will be fulfilled and the condition no longer valid.

[Rhoynar]

it might be that george martin originally planned to go with this theory but judging by the way people are convinced that jon snow is a targareyn he might just change the story to shock the readers.

further more through out the books some hints are given at this, so that also makes up more ground for a huge surprise

if he is rhaegar and lyanna's son, then he's the true heir to the iron throne, even above dany.

If Ned stark knew this then why did he sent jon off to the night's watch. I mean that's just a waste of a person. He will die childless and without any real meaning worthy of a prince

He is heir to nothing. If he were Rhaegar and Lyanna's son he still would be a bastard. And in any case, he's joined the Night's Watch so he's given up all claims he could have.

[Nictarion]

Well... if after LN 2.0 seasons get to normal and no more long nights will come, then the oath will be fulfilled and the condition no longer valid.

The others were defeated before, that doesn't mean they can't come back. Unless a way to eradicate them once and for all is found, there will always be a NW.

[Dicer]

Regarding the oaths:

1. Jon is already an oathbreaker. He was ready to break his oaths at the end of ADwD and go save his sister. He has interfered with the affairs of the realm (Stannis, Alys, Karstarks) and even though he had no choice for some of them, he did do it. He asked Stannis to spare Mance despite Mance being a known deserter. So I am not sure how ardent Jon is about those vows. When he comes back after a stint in Ghost and after being betrayed and stabbed by his brothers I am even less sure how he is going to view those oaths.

2. The NW as an institution may no longer exist. If the wall comes down, what are these guys going to do? There maybe some sort of border patrol but I foresee big changes to the institution itself.

3. I think GRRM mentioned in an SSM somewhere that there is precedence for a King to legally get someone out of the NW. Might is right and all that. Robb thought he could do it and Stannis thinks he can do it as well.

The second concerns the oaths of the Night Watch, Maesters, King's Guard, silent sisters, etc. Both Robb and Stannis, and presumably Robb's great lords, thought it was possible that Jon could be released form his oaths. Other than the precedent established by Joffrey with Ser Barristan, is there any other past precedent with any of the other organizations were the members swear poverty, celibacy, etc. to be honorably released from their vows? I ask because if the NW has been around for 8000 years, and many great lords and/or their families may have joined (not entirely willing in some cases), there seems to be a lot of potential for "exceptions" to develop as time went on.

Yes, there have been a few other cases, but they have been very rare. Such vows are taken very seriously.

4. I agree that dying and being resurrected would be a stupid way to get out of the NW oaths. In this case Jon is not actually dying and at the end of the day he is still alive. I don't see Jon as someone who uses that excuse to get out of the NW.

[Nictarion]

Regarding the oaths:

1. Jon is already an oathbreaker. He was ready to break his oaths at the end of ADwD and go save his sister. He has interfered with the affairs of the realm (Stannis, Alys, Karstarks) and even though he had no choice for some of them, he did do it. He asked Stannis to spare Mance despite Mance being a known deserter. So I am not sure how ardent Jon is about those vows. When he comes back after a stint in Ghost and after being betrayed and stabbed by his brothers I am even less sure how he is going to view those oaths.

2. The NW as an institution may no longer exist. If the wall comes down, what are these guys going to do? There maybe some sort of border patrol but I foresee big changes to the institution itself.

3. I think GRRM mentioned in an SSM somewhere that there is precedence for a King to legally get someone out of the NW. Might is right and all that. Robb thought he could do it and Stannis thinks he can do it as well.

4. I agree that dying and being resurrected would be a stupid way to get out of the NW oaths. In this case Jon is not actually dying and at the end of the day he is still alive. I don't see Jon as someone who uses that excuse to get out of the NW.

1. Jon broke his vows with Ygritte to.

3. Wasn't the great counsel prepared to offer Aemon the throne even though he was in the NW? Or was he still at the Citidel?

[Ygrain]

He is heir to nothing. If he were Rhaegar and Lyanna's son he would be a bastard. And in any case, he's joined the Night's Watch so he's given up all claims he could have.

He can be released by his death, by ending the long night, or by being kicked out. He can break his vows to fulfill their spirit - become the king to protect the realms of men. Quite a number of ways for this to be played, and there are certainly some more I haven't thought about.

As for his supposed bastardy - and you have a proof that Rhaegar didn't revive the Targaryen polygamy, which has been hanging there since the beginning of the series like a Chekhov gun?

The others were defeated before, that doesn't mean they can't come back. Unless a way to eradicate them once and for all is found, there will always be a NW.

Perhaps that is the key - not defeat, but establish balance? Or kick them out entirely? We don't know what happened then, and there is no telling what might happen now. I think that the option that the NW will no longer be needed cannot be ruled out.